Hilton

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#26
Weaver said:
That is the point though. Hilton is not our number 1 small defender (Newman is). Hilton will never be that guy because he doesn't have pace. He is not our main mid-sized guy because Bowden is. He can't play midfield or tag (at least Chaffey can make an attempt).

We are talking about a 26 year old veteran who is what? 6th best defender who occasionally gets a favourable match-up? A guy with his experience should be contributing a lot more.

Keeping him around won't make us better.
Amen.
 

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#27
I don't know about hilton. He seems to have games where he is in the zone(Melb game when he did his shoulder) and then other games where its asif hes not there. I think he just needs to be played forward flank for the last 2 games so he can get a fair bit of the ball and show what he can offer to the club next year. I would really like to see him stay as he is one of few older blokes that give their all every game.
 
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#28
sante said:
Keeping Richo anymore won't make us better for the future but you keep him because he is playing well. Hilton deserves to play on next year.
One of the most well written posts I have read on BigFooty for a while. It is as simple as the above.
 
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#29
Junkie said:
silence ofthe Robert said:
You said that his "problems reputedly are lack of effort in preparation" and I have to strongly disagree with you. His injuries have been structural and not a conditioning issue. I'm well informed that he does everything possible to get his body right and has been doing this ever since his ability became apparant in 2000.
I was not making any assertion on his lack of effort but a general perception about Rory whether based in fact or not is that he has let himself down in that regard. Accordingly I used the word 'reputedly' as I dont necessarily agree. I understand that he had trouble getting himself properly motivated in 2002/2003, but you can understand a then 23/24 year old already having recuperated from serious eye, knee and shoulders getting a bit peed off with his lot every now and then. His comeback from his latest knee reconstruction is remarkable and would seem to indicate he has put in the rehab work. I hope he gets in a solid pre season and gives us his best next year. Go Junkie ( sorry Rory)!
 
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#30
Weaver said:
That is the point though. Hilton is not our number 1 small defender (Newman is). Hilton will never be that guy because he doesn't have pace. He is not our main mid-sized guy because Bowden is. He can't play midfield or tag (at least Chaffey can make an attempt).

We are talking about a 26 year old veteran who is what? 6th best defender who occasionally gets a favourable match-up? A guy with his experience should be contributing a lot more.

Keeping him around won't make us better.
Rory probably makes the right decision however more often than Newman, Bowden and certainly Chaffey. Good illustration on Sunday when Bowden decided to baulk a bulldogs player with two richmond players clear on wing and half forward. The doggie got a hand in, which resulted in a turnover and surge forward. The next play had the ball falls in the forward pocket with Hilton in a one on two, with a shot at goal almost a certainty and he quickly made the decision to run at the rolling ball quickly, get a kick off the ground to clear the area by 40 metres and avert the danger. Just one example of why Rory should stay and is valuable to the Tiges.
 

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#31
sante said:
Keeping Richo anymore won't make us better for the future but you keep him because he is playing well. Hilton deserves to play on next year.
You keep Richo around because he is a key member of the team. Clearly inside the best 10 players, fills a difficult and vital role in the team (full forward) and has no candidates to replace him. Furthermore Richardson has consistanly produced and is not trading on the occasional good game.

Hilton in contrast is at his peak but is still playing in a fringe role. We are slowly drifting back to the Daffy-Naish-D.Kellaway-Tape era when we had specialist flankers without the ability to play midfield, making us slow and stagnant. Hilton is a 26 year old midfielder at the peak of his powers who can only fill in in the back pocket, and even then not take the oppositions better forwards.

We need to improve and try to replace the adequate/OK players with guys who can be finals-calibre performers. We have to try and do it 2-3 players a year. Campbell, Hilton and Graham this year because we have some defensive options. Chaffey, Krakouer and Tivendale next year when our younger midfielders have had the extra year.
 
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#32
Weaver, Hilton is barely 12 months back from a knee reco - dont see how you can say he is at the peak of his powers. Yes he should have been an elite midfielder but he aint, but running off half back could be his go, doesn't have to be a speedster if he uses the ball well - i.e Cameron. I think he deserves an injury free pre season to allow him to really show what he has got. I think his previous non performance is mostly myth

Just to be mischievous, below are the stats for Hilton's first 55 games (first four seasons) with Voss' first 49 (first three seasons) which are not that unsimilar. This is an interesting comparision because Hilton is seen as an underachieving player by many and Voss is rightly considered as arguably the best midfielder/player of the last 20 years.

Figures are

Games Disposals (av) Goals Total Tackle total(ave)

Hilton 55 13.98 40 77 (1.4)
Voss 49 16.67 47 65 (1.32)


Since 2001 (when he played his 55th game), Hilton has only played 34 out of a possible 86 games.

Considering he was OK before he did his knee last year and has been good this year (In fact averaging 17 posessions in his last three games at half back and beating his opponent comprehensively each time), I dont know how arguments that he has not performed for us are really sustainable - really just an urban legend that grows legs with every 'wrong' retelling.
 

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#33
silence ofthe Robert said:
Just to be mischievous, below are the stats for Hilton's first 55 games (first four seasons) with Voss' first 49 (first three seasons) which are not that unsimilar. This is an interesting comparision because Hilton is seen as an underachieving player by many and Voss is rightly considered as arguably the best midfielder/player of the last 20 years.

Figures are

Games Disposals (av) Goals Total Tackle total(ave)

Hilton 55 13.98 40 77 (1.4)
Voss 49 16.67 47 65 (1.32)
i think we better get whoever is admin to lock this one away, and make it visible to only tiger supporters. It will only fuel more laughter from opposition fans.
If you dont think so, then why dont you ring a radio station talk back show, and proceed to recite your post word for word, so all and sundry will politely listen, and thank youfor your contribution, while shaking their heads in the face of lunacy. ;)
 
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#35
Subtlety obviously escapes some people. I was not stating that Hilton is Voss' equal as a player or even close. What I was saying is that he has not underperformed as people keep saying. If people suggest than on the stats given Rory has been disappointing then the corollory to that point is that Voss must have been only slightly less disappointing in his first 50 games.

My point is simple and I willl type this slowly so you can keep up Cogs.

1. Voss is the benchmark in the competition in my eyes as an elite midfielder IMO.

2. Benchmarking Hilton against Voss over a similar period of their career 9i,e first 50 games, the figure show that Hilton has not been as 'ordinary' as people claim. In fact I think most half back flankers would take a 14 disposal average and 40 goals as an outcome after their first 55 games.

3. My next point is if you accept he was good (as the figures demonstrate)in his first 55 games, one should acknowldge that since that time Hilton has barely played any games due mostly to shoulder reconstruction and knee reconstruction. Further in the games he has played in 2004 and 2005 he has been either very good or serviceable, Accordingly it is harsh and IMO quite wrong in fact to say he has underperformed. People seem to judge him on his one poor year in 2003 rather than his good performances on either side of that year. Why? Probably some projections of inadequacy and frustrations at our lack of success being transferred to Hilton as sacrificial lamb.

Cogs I just set out some facts. If they make your position untenable that's your problem, not mine
 

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#36
silence ofthe Robert said:
Subtlety obviously escapes some people. I was not stating that Hilton is Voss' equal as a player or even close. What I was saying is that he has not underperformed as people keep saying. If people suggest than on the stats given Rory has been disappointing then the corollory to that point is that Voss must have been only slightly less disappointing in his first 50 games.

My point is simple and I willl type this slowly so you can keep up Cogs.

1. Voss is the benchmark in the competition in my eyes as an elite midfielder IMO.

2. Benchmarking Hilton against Voss over a similar period of their career 9i,e first 50 games, the figure show that Hilton has not been as 'ordinary' as people claim. In fact I think most half back flankers would take a 14 disposal average and 40 goals as an outcome after their first 55 games.

3. My next point is if you accept he was good (as the figures demonstrate)in his first 55 games, one should acknowldge that since that time Hilton has barely played any games due mostly to shoulder reconstruction and knee reconstruction. Further in the games he has played in 2004 and 2005 he has been either very good or serviceable, Accordingly it is harsh and IMO quite wrong in fact to say he has underperformed. People seem to judge him on his one poor year in 2003 rather than his good performances on either side of that year. Why? Probably some projections of inadequacy and frustrations at our lack of success being transferred to Hilton as sacrificial lamb.

Cogs I just set out some facts. If they make your position untenable that's your problem, not mine
since you are a facts man, then maybe you should delve into some other facts regarding players that Lethal deemed as not required at the Lions and then see how their careers just flourished post that desicion. ;)
 

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#37
Rory had a knee reco and an eye injury up at Brisbane and made it known he didn't like it up there. Matthews cut his losses. Hawks did same with Shane Tuck because of his ill health/injuries. Sometimes tehy bite you in teh backside sometimes they dont.

The figures I quoted refer mainly to Hilton's time at Richmond.

Voss did exceptionally well to come back from a broken leg, but I wonder if he would have been the same player if he had detached a retina at 17, had a knee reconstruction at 18 and a busted shoulder at 23 as well.

Injuries are in the lap of the gods. If Richo and Free hadn't done knees in 1995 we might have been premiers and our subsequent history rewritten but not to be.

I will repeat - Judge Rory on what he produces - not some 'myth' of non performance.
 

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#38
here is a cross section of the players lethal removed from their list:

Barker
Molloy
Weller
Morrison
Lawrence
Knobel
Hilton
Headland(wanted to go)
Cupido
Clarke
Bartlett
Obree
Caracella

the who's who of the AFL ;)
 
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#39
CoggaRules said:
here is a cross section of the players lethal removed from their list:

Barker
Molloy
Weller
Morrison
Lawrence
Knobel
Hilton
Headland(wanted to go)
Cupido
Clarke
Bartlett
Obree
Caracella

the who's who of the AFL ;)
Presumably these players were placed on the list by the same genius! :rolleyes:
 
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#40
Direct question for Cogga Rules - Do you think that a young running half back who has an average of 14 posessions, 1.4 tackles and has kicked 40 goals is in his first 55 games has done well?

To assist you, I will give you another benchmark. In his first 20 games Brett Deledio is averaging 14.57 possessions a game, averages 1.65 tackles and kicked 13 goals.

I await your considered judgement :eek:
 

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#41
silence ofthe Robert said:
I will repeat - Judge Rory on what he produces - not some 'myth' of non performance.
not judging rory on what he produces, which at the "moment" is OK. Problem is there are "moments" in his career, instead of "constistency".
Not talking about the last 2 years, injury plagued. Talking about his intitial years at the tiges. Or do you elect to black out the days when his commtiment was subject to scrutiny by the wider footy community after that friday night on national tv where in close up he turned it up in a chase, and the commentators had a picnic?
He got his act together the next year, since he had been stung by a bee with that episode, but apart from that 1 good year, the rest have been riddled by inconsistency.
Alas for him, he took the bullet for the team, when he stepped in front of the Neitz semi-trailer, but since then, he has struggled to regain that 1 year of good form, and add to that another spanner in the works, the knee last year.
but you have top cut your losses, in the end, if talk about who to get to the tigers off season is mostly aligned to youngsters and non veteran recycleds that dont, and havent major "injury clouds" hanging over them, how on earth can we talk about keeping rory when he fits the latter descrioption to a tee.
And for your info, i dont mind rory, he is hard and has a bit of mongrel, but his time is up IMO. But that is purely my own opinion. He might make me eat my words, but I would love to have a few bucks on it that he doesnt.
 
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#42
CoggaRules said:
not judging rory on what he produces, which at the "moment" is OK. Problem is there are "moments" in his career, instead of "constistency".
Not talking about the last 2 years, injury plagued. Talking about his intitial years at the tiges. Or do you elect to black out the days when his commtiment was subject to scrutiny by the wider footy community after that friday night on national tv where in close up he turned it up in a chase, and the commentators had a picnic?
He got his act together the next year, since he had been stung by a bee with that episode, but apart from that 1 good year, the rest have been riddled by inconsistency.
Alas for him, he took the bullet for the team, when he stepped in front of the Neitz semi-trailer, but since then, he has struggled to regain that 1 year of good form, and add to that another spanner in the works, the knee last year.
but you have top cut your losses, in the end, if talk about who to get to the tigers off season is mostly aligned to youngsters and non veteran recycleds that dont, and havent major "injury clouds" hanging over them, how on earth can we talk about keeping rory when he fits the latter descrioption to a tee.
And for your info, i dont mind rory, he is hard and has a bit of mongrel, but his time is up IMO. But that is purely my own opinion. He might make me eat my words, but I would love to have a few bucks on it that he doesnt.
Look I take your point and your view about whether s time is up may be right but the figures dont back you up on your contention that he had one good year. In fact they prove that he only had one bad year which was unaffected by injury (2003). This is what I mean about 'Myth' creation. Sure Rory is flawed, but he is talented and has what 75% of our list dont have i.e footy smarts!
 

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#44
Thats great news.

Rory is a highly talented player who has been unfairly criticised by richmond supporters for many years. He is really just an escape goat because he has been there for so long and has had so many injuries. There are not too many other players who have been at the tigers as long that "supporters" can have a ping at.

Leigh Matthews recruited Hilton. That says a lot about the ability of the player.

With your list. I am pretty sure you will note that Caracella played in a premiership at Brisbane. Blumfield didnt do anything for richmond. I know who I would have preferred to have been drafted to tigerland.

Your just being argumentative cogga because as you admit, you are not judging him based on his current performance. Which is very high for someone coming off another knee reco.

Give it a rest and next year you will be rewarded "barring injuries" with even better performances from Rory. We are lucky to have him.
 

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#45
tigertime said:
Leigh Matthews recruited Hilton. That says a lot about the ability of the player.
not directed at rory, like i said, i dont mind him and there are worse in the side, but as to the statement above, I think you should think long and hard about it. Or do you need reminiding of others that fall into the "says a lot for ability" category. Dont need to go to far, just take a peek at Coburg, and then reminisce on another former Coburger who wasnt even good enough for that team.
Coaches make mistakes in drafts but Lethal hardly puts a foot wrong when getting rid of those mistakes, over the years. Before you talk about rory in the context of this, injury prone, sort of plays a role in a coaches thinking as well dont forget.
 

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#46
tigertime said:
Rory is a highly talented player who has been unfairly criticised by richmond supporters for many years. He is really just an escape goat because he has been there for so long and has had so many injuries.
He is a scapegoat because for such a hugely talented player he has been content to sit in a pocket. That is the role for a 20 year old kid (at a club like ours) not a 26 year old veteran. Complacency is his sin, not being rubbish.

tigertime said:
Leigh Matthews recruited Hilton. That says a lot about the ability of the player.
He was drafted in the 1996 draft. He spent two years there and was shipped out to us in the 1998 trade period. Matthews got the Lions gig for the 1999 season.

tigertime said:
With your list. I am pretty sure you will note that Caracella played in a premiership at Brisbane. Blumfield didnt do anything for richmond. I know who I would have preferred to have been drafted to tigerland.
Anyone can play HFF on a dominant team. Swap Blumfield and Caracella and Blumfield is a premiership player for the Lions and Caracella is a bum.
 

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#47
CoggaRules said:
Coaches make mistakes in drafts but Lethal hardly puts a foot wrong when getting rid of those mistakes, over the years. Before you talk about rory in the context of this, injury prone, sort of plays a role in a coaches thinking as well dont forget.
Rory's decision to leave Brisbane not Lethals.
 

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#49
Rory Hilton this is your life:

Average possessions per game: 12.64
Average marks per game: 3.48
Average tackles per game: 1.45
Average goals per game: 0.62

How many utilities have survived in the AFL for over 8 years with figures like that?
 

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#50
JohnF said:
Rory Hilton this is your life:

Average possessions per game: 12.64
Average marks per game: 3.48
Average tackles per game: 1.45
Average goals per game: 0.62

How many utilities have survived in the AFL for over 8 years with figures like that?
F'arken hack.

2 somewhat decent games in the back pocket doesnt mean he shouldnt be cut.

******** him off to give Thursfeild, Hartigan, Jackson, Roach type a chance, someone whos going to be in our future.
 
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