Hinesight v Knightsight v Hindsight 2020

Remove this Banner Ad

Knightmare said:
Stephenson is by far and away the more explosive athlete and superior endurance athlete.

Neither apply themselves defensively as forwards.

Henry isn't much of a ball winner, he wins a decent % contested which is something, but he just doesn't find anywhere near the volume Stephenson did as a junior. And I don't necessarily see him as that head over the ball type. He's more someone who aerially will fly for it more-so, but is only average at ground level.

I can't see Henry pushing up through the midfield. He's either a medium back (ideally) or medium forward if struggling for options.

I'd be looking to pair Henry up with Howe and have him take lessons.
Click to expand...
Thanks Knightmare, let’s hope he’s not totally petrified like Stevo was.
 
I believe that the club is making an error in shying away from the big forwards. They should be able to look ahead to the way the game is likely to develop as the AFL moves to adjust the rules. It is clear that the closing down of the game that coaches have achieved is not acceptable to the AFL or anyone else. The rules will be changed and changed again to try to restore some of the spectacle and flow that the game used to feature. To concentrate on recruiting players suited to the congested style of play we have now, assuming that it will continue to be that way seems short sighted to me. A bit of insurance with players able to compete and win one on one, to lead into space and so on in the expectation that those conditions may return due to rule changes would seem prudent.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

Knightmare said:
Henry is no Cyril. He doesn't apply meaningful forward pressure like Cyril. That forward pressure and the impact per possession is what he did. That's not Henry.

And Cyril other than the odd burst through the midfield was a forward.

Henry is more a maybe he's a back, maybe he's a forward. With his forward pressure lacking, he probably has to settle in defence, and then hopefully he's good enough. When you've got guys with aerial gifts and are strong marks. Having them behind the ball. Having that intercepting weapon is always handy and that's what he looks most likely to be able to develop into, if he develops.

It's like when Howe was forward. Okay forward. But not all that consistent. In defence though, big time impact player. So hopefully Henry can learn some of that.
Click to expand...

Going By Reports Henry was lot better Forward then he was Down Back.

You might be Right be better down back but he find it way harder to get a Game down back as best Area on the Ground then Forward where is the worst area on the Ground
 
sr36 said:
We pretty clearly didn't havethe cap space for either of them, so not really relevant how much they may have added to the team.
Click to expand...

Ultimately with a McDonald it depended on a combination of how much cap space would have been cleared, with the other factor being how much of his contract Melbourne would have been willing to pay. Melbourne didn't show much interest in retaining McDonald, so I'd wager they would have paid a considerable portion of what remains on his contract.

sr36 said:
I agree with you, his highlights video screamed intercepting defender to me. I just don't think there's much space for a marking medium forward in the current game, unless he's also explosive at ground level.
Click to expand...

I mostly agree with you here.

When you're a marking specialist, it's about putting them behind the ball. When you're a forward, you really need them to have front half talent. And part of that is having the ground level craft, have speed, being able to hit the scoreboard heavily and bringing the forward pressure. You really need to have guys tick a lot of boxes, as it's a position that requires such superiority of talent unless they're absolute forward pressure freaks and still bring at least something partially offensive at least with it.
 
sr36 said:
It's a shame his hammies weren't very good. Would have loved to see him have a crack in the midfield like he was slated to do before they started to go wrong.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Cyril was actually pretty influential for those brief midfield bursts. So he did have that dimension to his game. I get the sense he's someone who needed to get stretching at a younger age.

Interestingly, he's one of those guys where in year one he was great, but there wasn't all that much to change about his game, which really speaks to his natural talent.

kickitolachie said:
I believe that the club is making an error in shying away from the big forwards. They should be able to look ahead to the way the game is likely to develop as the AFL moves to adjust the rules. It is clear that the closing down of the game that coaches have achieved is not acceptable to the AFL or anyone else. The rules will be changed and changed again to try to restore some of the spectacle and flow that the game used to feature. To concentrate on recruiting players suited to the congested style of play we have now, assuming that it will continue to be that way seems short sighted to me. A bit of insurance with players able to compete and win one on one, to lead into space and so on in the expectation that those conditions may return due to rule changes would seem prudent.
Click to expand...

I agree with you here. They're not drafted but should be more often and it's a blindspot among recruiters. If you want someone who can bring it to ground to those ground level types, there is value. And I view them as players where if they don't become good enough as forwards, that's fine, they can often translate really well to a key defence post.

TradeDraft said:
Going By Reports Henry was lot better Forward then he was Down Back.

You might be Right be better down back but he find it way harder to get a Game down back as best Area on the Ground then Forward where is the worst area on the Ground
Click to expand...

Henry was pretty good when he played forward. Hit the scoreboard, took some good aerial marks and contested marks. He just didn't bring any forward pressure with it.

He's someone I find so uncomfortable to place because I don't think he'll be good enough as a forward, but at the same time, hasn't been great yet in defence either.

He's someone I would have needed to have seen play and improve a lot this year to really feel comfortable even using a national draft pick on, as I'm not yet seeing that position where with time he'll become that clear best 22 player.

There are too many 'yeah buts' in each spot at this point in time. Wherever you try to position him. But back at least in theory, that's probably his best shot, as at least his limitations won't necessary prevent him from developing there.
 
Knightmare said:
Ultimately with a McDonald it depended on a combination of how much cap space would have been cleared, with the other factor being how much of his contract Melbourne would have been willing to pay. Melbourne didn't show much interest in retaining McDonald, so I'd wager they would have paid a considerable portion of what remains on his contract.

When you're a marking specialist, it's about putting them behind the ball. When you're a forward, you really need them to have front half talent. And part of that is having the ground level craft, have speed, being able to hit the scoreboard heavily and bringing the forward pressure. You really need to have guys tick a lot of boxes, as it's a position that requires such superiority of talent unless they're absolute forward pressure freaks and still bring at least something partially offensive at least with it.
Click to expand...

I agree with both points. But with McDonald or Brown and cap space, we would have had to ensure we dumped those salaries first and trying to get as much for the draft as possible was obviously the intention (didn't work though)- thus they were never oging tohave to time to work out what we could afford to pay Macdonald afterwards. It ws never going to happen.

I do still think there is a place for blokes up forward who can really mark the footy without offering that much at ground level - ala Hawkins, despite them not being as effective as they used to be, because if nothing else they draw defenders bring the ball to ground and thus they help to give opportunities to ground level players.
 
sr36 said:
I agree with both points. But with McDonald or Brown and cap space, we would have had to ensure we dumped those salaries first and trying to get as much for the draft as possible was obviously the intention (didn't work though)- thus they were never oging tohave to time to work out what we could afford to pay Macdonald afterwards. It ws never going to happen.

I do still think there is a place for blokes up forward who can really mark the footy without offering that much at ground level - ala Hawkins, despite them not being as effective as they used to be, because if nothing else they draw defenders and they help to give opportunities to ground level players.
Click to expand...

I agree with you on big forwards. If they're good enough, it doesn't matter how you contribute, as long as you're contributing above replacement value or better than the next best alternative.

That's why I was so keen on the now undrafted Jackson Callow. 101kg. He's a big body. Physically developed. Strong mark. But overlooked. *People are missing his smarts and not realising how smart of a key forward he is and that he doesn't just dominate because of his size/strength. I loved what he did as a forward last year. But if developed forward and decide he isn't good enough. Who cares? Shift him to a key defence post where he dominated in the TSL and can be AFL standard.

Hawkins and Dixon this year were great - mostly because of reduced gametime. But they'd still be effective regardless. Taberner is underrated and a contested marking beast. But when you've got those contested marking beasts, it's like with a Levi Casboult. You can play him forward. And he's a fine forward. But then you've got the option of transforming them into a key defender. And Casboult would be a great key defender, he's just not needed there for Carlton with Jones (another converted once key forward) and Weitering both terrific.
 
Knightmare said:
Stephenson is by far and away the more explosive athlete and superior endurance athlete.

Neither apply themselves defensively as forwards.

Henry isn't much of a ball winner, he wins a decent % contested which is something, but he just doesn't find anywhere near the volume Stephenson did as a junior. And I don't necessarily see him as that head over the ball type. He's more someone who aerially will fly for it more-so, but is only average at ground level.

I can't see Henry pushing up through the midfield. He's either a medium back (ideally) or medium forward if struggling for options.

I'd be looking to pair Henry up with Howe and have him take lessons.
Click to expand...
Stephensons disposal numbers only went up in the second half of his draft year after he was played in the middle didn’t they? It’s probably an unfair comparison to make on 2 counts, given Henry wasn’t played as a mid, and he didn’t get that same opportunity in his draft year.
 
Apex36 said:
Stephensons disposal numbers only went up in the second half of his draft year after he was played in the middle didn’t they? It’s probably an unfair comparison to make on 2 counts, given Henry wasn’t played as a mid, and he didn’t get that same opportunity in his draft year.
Click to expand...

They were ultimately as juniors in different classes. 2 years out from getting drafted Stephenson was playing and showing signs.

In Stephenson's draft year it was really his first two games he played forward. 8 goals between the two games. Then started spending more time up the field and still kicked a goal most games. In checking his numbers, his tackle numbers were a lot higher than I expected. 13 tackles in one game. 11 in another. A few 7 tackle games. He was providing meaningful run and carry with ball in hand and was actually winning his own ball at that level but hasn't translated that to AFL play.

It's more-so an unfair comparison because at all ages there was substantial separation. Stephenson was always very thin, but also had a very advanced game.
 
Knightmare said:
They were ultimately as juniors in different classes. 2 years out from getting drafted Stephenson was playing and showing signs.

In Stephenson's draft year it was really his first two games he played forward. 8 goals between the two games. Then started spending more time up the field and still kicked a goal most games. In checking his numbers, his tackle numbers were a lot higher than I expected. 13 tackles in one game. 11 in another. A few 7 tackle games. He was providing meaningful run and carry with ball in hand and was actually winning his own ball at that level but hasn't translated that to AFL play.

It's more-so an unfair comparison because at all ages there was substantial separation. Stephenson was always very thin, but also had a very advanced game.
Click to expand...
Why were his tackle numbers surprising? His forward defensive numbers were amongst the best in the league in his first 2 years. Honestly, people on this site have the memory of goldfish. A player has a down year, a couple of loudmouths say that said player doesn’t tackle, then suddenly it becomes gospel and everything the player has done prior is forgotten as if it never happened.
 
Apex36 said:
Why were his tackle numbers surprising? His forward defensive numbers were amongst the best in the league in his first 2 years. Honestly, people on this site have the memory of goldfish. A player has a down year, a couple of loudmouths say that said player doesn’t tackle, then suddenly it becomes gospel and everything the player has done prior is forgotten as if it never happened.
Click to expand...
Stephenson's output is tied to his confidence.

When he is going well, so is the team. He goes the extra mile because his naturally gifted game easily translates into 'highlight' plays. He kicks goals, gets rewarded for tackles and the crowd laps it up!

On the flip side, like we saw this year, when the teams down, when things aren't 'easy', he goes into his shell. As a result, he can't be relied upon and this causes frustration within the group and the whole scenario snowballs.

It'll be interesting seeing how he goes at North next year, small crowds, a weak side and a young team. He's going to have to grow up very quickly and become a leader more than a follow if he is to flourish like he did in his first few years.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

Spuddd said:
Stephenson's output is tied to his confidence.

When he is going well, so is the team. He goes the extra mile because his naturally gifted game easily translates into 'highlight' plays. He kicks goals, gets rewarded for tackles and the crowd laps it up!

On the flip side, like we saw this year, when the teams down, when things aren't 'easy', he goes into his shell. As a result, he can't be relied upon and this causes frustration within the group and the whole scenario snowballs.

It'll be interesting seeing how he goes at North next year, small crowds, a weak side and a young team. He's going to have to grow up very quickly and become a leader more than a follow if he is to flourish like he did in his first few years.
Click to expand...

Guess he probably have another s**t Season next year then at North.

He has the Motiation to Stick it up Buck's Ass
 
TradeDraft said:
Guess he probably have another sh*t Season next year then at North.

He has the Motiation to Stick it up Buck's Ass
Click to expand...
I think he'll be very up and down, another year much like this one.

As for his motivation, he should probably work on gaining the trust and respect of a blokes father who he embarrassed - before worrying about proving anyone wrong...
 
Spuddd said:
I think he'll be very up and down, another year much like this one.

As for his motivation, he should probably work on gaining the trust and respect of a blokes father who he embarrassed - before worrying about proving anyone wrong...
Click to expand...

Who did he Embarrass?
 
TradeDraft said:
Who did he Embarrass?
Click to expand...
John Noble, son of the current North Coach
 
Spuddd said:
John Noble, son of the current North Coach
Click to expand...

and What did he do to Embrass John?
 
Apex36 said:
Why were his tackle numbers surprising? His forward defensive numbers were amongst the best in the league in his first 2 years. Honestly, people on this site have the memory of goldfish. A player has a down year, a couple of loudmouths say that said player doesn’t tackle, then suddenly it becomes gospel and everything the player has done prior is forgotten as if it never happened.
Click to expand...

For accuracy. One year of having reasonable tackle numbers and good pressure metrics. And it's not like he hit the double digit tackle numbers, one game with 8 tackles, another couple with 6 another couple with 4 and all the other games less than 4 tackles.

And I wouldn't go overboard in saying his 'forward defensive numbers were amongst the best in the league.'

Stephenson was equal 66th in tackles i50 per game. Numerous key forwards had more tackles i50 than Stephenson. Jack Riewoldt, Tom Hawkins, Taylor Walker, Darcy Fogarty, Brennan Cox, Josh Jenkins, Charlie Dixon, Jarryd Roughead, Todd Marshall, Jack Watts, Josh Kennedy, Jack Darling and Tom McDonald all as key forwards had more tackles i50 per game than Stephenson.

Or for total tackles Stephenson on a per game basis was 224th.

But absolutely he was 'above average' for forward half pressure acts that one year. You won't have me disagreeing there. A good number of those pressure acts lead to scores from turnover.

It's a shame it was only the one year of that. Sub 30 tackles these past two years.

One good season doesn't make a footballer. The volume of work is what determines whether someone can do something consistently or not.
 
kickitolachie said:
I believe that the club is making an error in shying away from the big forwards. They should be able to look ahead to the way the game is likely to develop as the AFL moves to adjust the rules. It is clear that the closing down of the game that coaches have achieved is not acceptable to the AFL or anyone else. The rules will be changed and changed again to try to restore some of the spectacle and flow that the game used to feature. To concentrate on recruiting players suited to the congested style of play we have now, assuming that it will continue to be that way seems short sighted to me. A bit of insurance with players able to compete and win one on one, to lead into space and so on in the expectation that those conditions may return due to rule changes would seem prudent.
Click to expand...
Not sure that's 100% true...I think the club has learnt not to draft one unless they have outstanding ability

I think they really liked Logan McDonald so it seems if they still rate this type of player.

Not taking a big forward I think says more about the forwards available than who we did/didn't pick
 
Knightmare said:
I do rate Collingwood as being in a worse position today than in 2017. The difference is Collingwood don't have enough high end players. 13 by my count I'd feel comfortable playing (back then it would have been 14+), and the rest just making up the numbers. Then on top of that, there isn't the youth either to give me that optimism for the future. 23 and younger, there aren't those core players who can carry a team to a premiership.

As per my earlier comments. Collingwood will go as far as the first and second year players take the club. They're the ones with the scope to elevate the list and add some worthwhile numbers to that best 22, even if it's more-so working towards and looking like they will than being that standard this year.
Click to expand...
I just had a look at the 2017 playing list and to be honest, I would struggle at that moment in time without playing any finals footy for a number of years to say there were 14+ high end players.
 
Billys Back said:
I just had a look at the 2017 playing list and to be honest, I would struggle at that moment in time without playing any finals footy for a number of years to say there were 14+ high end players.
Click to expand...

Adams, Sidebottom, Crisp, Maynard, Treloar, Moore, Howe, Grundy, Elliott, Dunn, Pendlebury, De Goey, Langdon, Wells and Phillips are the 15 I liked in 2017.

Dunn had a seriously good year. Wells had some big games and his impact per possession was high but did have his injuries. Langdon was when he was out there good. De Goey and Phillips were still early stages in development but two I at least felt very comfortable seeing out on the field.

It's looking like a pretty similar quality team. A lot of those names now are more advanced than they were at that time which probably makes next year's team more a 9-12 team, than a 13th placed team. But there are still similar problems outside of that better group with not much after that. It's just probably a thinner group of capable players next year until/unless some of those first and second year players step up and establish themselves as those kind of contributors if we're speaking relatively.
 
Knightmare said:
And I wouldn't go overboard in saying his 'forward defensive numbers were amongst the best in the league.'
Click to expand...

TBF to Apex36 I definitely remember reading an article that suggested that Stephenson was statistically one of the better forwards at generating scoring chances from defensive pressure acts. Obviously they consider that there is more to the defensive side of the game than just pure tackle numbers.

After some digging I found this:

In attack last year, Stephenson’s forward pressure acts directly contributed 76 points for the Magpies across the season — ranked fifth in the AFL.
Click to expand...

NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au www.theaustralian.com.au
 
Buckleys Jocks said:
TBF to Apex36 I definitely remember reading an article that suggested that Stephenson was statistically one of the better forwards at generating scoring chances from defensive pressure acts. Obviously they consider that there is more to the defensive side of the game than just pure tackle numbers.

After some digging I found this:



NoCookies | The Australian

www.theaustralian.com.au www.theaustralian.com.au
Click to expand...
Thank you! I looked for this but couldn’t find it and thought I was going mad.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Apples
Didaka Award: Essendon V Collingwood
Replies
22
Views
286
Tarkyn_24
Tarkyn_24
Mollythedolly
MVP 2024 R2 v Saints
Replies
9
Views
342
Eric Shin
Eric Shin
Apples
Didaka Award - R6 - Collingwood V Port
2
Replies
36
Views
589
BigVic
BigVic
Mollythedolly
MVP 2024 Didaka - R1 v Swans
Replies
17
Views
463
ZEV
Z
Jen2310
VFL VFL Round 5 v Essendon. Saturday April 27. 2:05pm @ Victoria Park
2 3
Replies
57
Views
1K
Hardas
Hardas
Apples
Didaka Award: Rnd 4 - Collingwood V Hawthorn
Replies
22
Views
408
Mollythedolly
Mollythedolly
gouki88
MVP 2024 Didaka Medal - R0 v GWS
2
Replies
29
Views
736
beerbandit
beerbandit

Remove this Banner Ad

Back
Top