Coach Horse: Retain, Retire, Reinvent?

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caesar88 said:
Things didn't seem to go terribly wrong much of this September when we won two finals? Funny how the criteria for Horse seems to change. "Win a final" becomes "win a grand final" once he starts, y'know, winning finals...

The prelim final was rather illuminating IMO. Rose-coloured glasses and the urge to be optimistic made us think the second half fade-out of that game was nothing to be concerned about, but we carried that exact form into the GF the week after, which suggests a lot of our boys simply might not've had much left in the tank.

Which does make the Blicavs move a relevant one. Suddenly we're up against a 198cm giant being deployed in a way that no other team had encountered all year. (82% CBAs in the GF playing as a mid, his highest all year by a long way - next highest was 50% earlier in the year. This proves it was a deliberate and engineered plan to blindside us and disrupt our midfield, and it worked. Even a team firing on all cyllinders would find life difficult with that, let alone one that seems half-baked. Not saying it won them the game but I think it was the initial boot they laid in that we did not. Doesn't hurt to acknowledge an opposition move and give it credit...

As for Warner starting on the bench, did you see our other finals? As fantastic as his season was, he was our 4th-best performing mid in the two finals prior (which is not to say he wasn't still quality). It's the big dance. You're not gonna have anything but your best midfield that got you there to start with. And whilst his resolve to finish out the game strongly and fight til the end was impressive, he was no better than any of our other players when the heat was on and the game was there to be won. 4 disposals in the first quarter.

As awful as it was to watch, I actually found this year's GF the least disappointing out of all three, including 2016. The benefit of hindsight showed we just didn't have enough left to give and against a rampaging team that had done it with ease, it's no wonder it was such an assault. On the matter of rallying our players for the occasion, I am with you. It's incredibly disappointing that we have to keep being disappointed in our most experienced players and leaders in grand finals. Horse isn't getting through to them for whatever reason, and I think even his staunchest advocates have acknowledged that's something he needs to address and fix.
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The reason Warner only had 4 possessions to quarter time is he spent nearly 10 minutes on the bench. It is really hard to come into a game and have an immediate impact if the opposition has the momentum. They had the momentum when he entered the arena. Blicavs and Danger were going berserk. Having a field day. How does a player who is cold come in and impact that. On the day he was one of our best. He was the best player in the prelim according to stats and viewing. So, I don't understand your viewpoint he did not stand up in the finals.

As for who could stop Blicavs, well there are ways to stop that but unfortunately Horse did not pick the one player capable of that. Going into a GF with an injured player is a mortal sin and Horse has committed this sin in the GF losses. His record I of taking injured players into GF is not good. In fact most coaches would not do this. Only two successful coaches who are still coaching has taken an injured player into a final and they lost too. Hardwick & Lyon.

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Wolftone said:
The reason Warner only had 4 possessions to quarter time is he spent nearly 10 minutes on the bench. It is really hard to come into a game and have an immediate impact if the opposition has the momentum. They had the momentum when he entered the arena. Blicavs and Danger were going berserk. Having a field day. How does a player who is cold come in and impact that. On the day he was one of our best. He was the best player in the prelim according to stats and viewing. So, I don't understand your viewpoint he did not stand up in the finals.

As for who could stop Blicavs, well there are ways to stop that but unfortunately Horse did not pick the one player capable of that. Going into a GF with an injured player is a mortal sin and Horse has committed this sin in the GF losses. His record I of taking injured players into GF is not good. In fact most coaches would not do this. Only two successful coaches who are still coaching has taken an injured player into a final and they lost too. Hardwick & Lyon.

On JAT-L29 using BigFooty.com mobile app
Click to expand...
Again, I will reiterate that nowhere did I say that Warner didn't stand up in finals. I said he was our fourth-best performing mid in the first two finals. Which is no shame, and certainly not a criticism. Parker, Mills and Rowbottom were immense in the first two finals.

Put yourself in Horse's shoes and think about the midfield you would want to start in the grand final.

You're obviously going to start with your most seasoned and experienced mid who has played in grand finals before... that's Parker.

You're obviously going to go with your best overall mid all year... that's Mills.

And you're obviously going to go with your most in-form mid... that's Rowbottom.

I don't recall hearing a single complaint about Warner starting on the bench in any of the three finals at the time, now the revisionist historians come out of the woodworks?

As for Blicavs, WTF was a fit Reid going to do? Blicavs was playing in and did the damage in the midfield at centre bounces, Reid was at CHF. The two aren't related at all. It's clear you're just looking for reasons that aren't there to blame Horse, rather than simply acknowledging the reasons that are there.
 

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Time for an essay.

Retain. Longmire built arguably the most successful Swans team of all time, certainly the best Sydney Swans team. Over the first couple of decades of the 21st century, only Geelong could lay claim to being a more consistently competitive team and Longmire has been a big part of that. He took those Swans to three premiership deciders, winning 2012, losing 2014 and watching on frustrated and helpless as the AFL decided the outcome of 2016.

When the AFL decided to tie the hands of these upstart Sydney-siders who dared to dream of a true national game, northern nuisances who messed up the AFL's precious model of how footy would evolve in Sydney. Another coach might have called it a day. Faced with an ageing list, and failing performance, Longmire instead said f.. you to any regrets and built a whole new team, almost from scratch. He did it with only two years out of finals contention, in the middle of a pandemic while bound by the salary cap constraints of Buddy's long term contract. He changed to an entirely new game plan and gave it to the team to own. That tells me all I need to know about Horse's commitment and passion. He stripped the team right back to bare metal and built a better team, heavily slanted towards local NSW players and destined for a generation of success, brim full of talented youth and determination. This is a team totally committed to Horse's vision, who would follow him to hell and back

Of course it hasn't been just Horse, a coach needs a club behind them and full credit to the Swans as a club. They've achieved this without COLA, despite the pull of homesickness which plagues northern clubs and without needing a bunch of early picks gained through years at the bottom. The Swans' recruiters have sifted a lot of oysters to find pearls. They've given talent the space to grow. They've nurtured, respected, led and protected players. They've embraced them in a supportive culture, of caring, determination, teamwork and self-sacrifice. A culture that players are proud to be part of.

I know many, if not most, will see the 2022 GF as a failure. I'd argue it was an over-achievement. We shot right past teams like Richmond, Melbourne, Brisbane, Port, Freo, Dogs and Carlton, teams who were all rated much higher than we were. Though to be fair, very few footy journos rated Geelong. I certainly did. Geelong had the most important asset for finals, something Horse couldn't instill in his young players. Geelong had experience. Bags and bags of experience. More experience than any other team.

Most of our players had played in just the one final before 2022, they'd never won a final. Chris Scott's team were battle hardened veterans who'd made just about every mistake it was possible to make in a final. They'd been bundled out of more than a decade of finals, led by the AFL's most experienced finals player of all time. Selwood finished his career as a veteran of forty finals, losing 18 and winning 22. Half our players haven't played that many home and away games. Selwood retired with four premierships and lost a couple more, losing from a huge lead as recently as 2020. His good mate Tom Hawkins is the second most experienced of any current finals player and the fourth most experienced AFL finals player of all time. To understand just how experienced Geelong are, of the top ten current players in terms of finals experience, seven are Geelong players.

Taking a step back, the fact that the Swans got to the 2022 GF after many had only played one losing final before is just an incredible achievement. We whipped the reigning premiers (twice) and we held on against the odds to a Collingwood side whose MO in the latter part of the season was winning impossibly close games against all the odds. We refused to follow their script. After an unbeaten blitz at the pointy end of the season, is it any wonder we were all so blinded by the glare of unbridled optimism, dreaming of the near impossible, that we were entirely unprepared when the cold wet fish of reality slapped us hard across our collective faces. No-one likes to show a fish-slapped-face to the world but there we stood as a team, dark red welt across our cheek, residual slime dripping from the side of the nose and a stubborn fishy odour.

Chris Scott did not leave anything to chance. From strategic recruitment to bolster every and any weakness, to tweaks to the Cats' game plan to a more free flowing hard running fast attacking game, to taking no risks with injured players. Every move Scott made seemed designed to counter every possible thing that had gone wrong in previous attempts or could go wrong. There was never going to be a 2nd half fade-out, their feet stayed on our throats. They knew that would never get a better chance, against a more inexperienced opposition with guys like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield desperate for one last chance. The lessons Scott had learned since his first and last premiership were all on show. This was Geelong's premiership to lose and Scott knew it. He used every drop of knowledge gleaned from his and his team's considerable finals experience. His team were flying high on confidence. They played out of their skins. Geelong were simply magnificent. The best I have ever seen a team play. It wasn't us making them look good. We didn't play badly, we didn't fall apart in shock as we had in 2014. No team in the league would have got within a whiff of such a complete performance, no matter the wild claims Pies fans keep making. Geelong did just enough to beat them on the first final. Against us they held nothing back. Credit that we fought on, refusing to go into our shells. I can't help but admire Fox for trying to swing the tide single handed. Damn he was brave, foolish, doomed, but brave and he inspired others to lift further.

Our team, with very little finals experience, were already playing well above expectations when we reached the GF. Horse and Pyke had found a winning formula in the back half of the year, but it depended very much on Sam Reid's ability to fill a number of key roles. He brought enormous forward pressure, sticking tackles and intercepting marks. He provided a dangerous tall marking target, one who was rarely beaten in the air. Reid would either mark the ball or bring it to ground. What's more, Reid was kicking goals. As a backup ruckman he used his bulk and timed his leap to make up for his lowly 197cm stature. Reid is also very good when the ball is on the deck. In Round 17 he took the chocolates having to solo ruck against Tim English after Ladhams went down. Reid's ability below his knees and speed to react when the ball hits the ground effectively provides another midfield option. Most importantly, Reid was able to play these multiple roles pretty much at the same time. He was also a very effective tall defender when the game needed to be shut down. While we have a number of tall options who can perform some of these roles, we have no-one who can fill all of Reid's shoes at once. To say Reid was critical to our team is an understatement. Collingwood's comeback after Reid went down was a warning. Longmire's choice was to drop Reid and lose or play Reid and take the risk.

It would be a travesty to retire Longmire when he's put so much into this team, made so much progress and gained so much more insight for 2023. I back Horse/Pyke to build on the success of 2022. I say Horse/Pyke because it seems they work very well together. Not only does Pyke bring new perspectives, which Horse is clearly not too proud to learn from, but it must be enormousluy helpful for Horse to have another senior coach to bounce ideas off. Pyke's confident outspokeness and the apparent ease of their working arrangement suggests that he and Horse are on the same page.

In 2022 we tested ourselves against arguably the most experienced and well-prepared finals side of the past few decades. This was no brave-dogs fluke, helped by friendly umps. Geelong get few favours from the AFL. I'd have liked to have returned a bit more fire but there was no shame in being given a lesson by Geelong of 2022. I have a feeling we're in for several return bouts.

All we got out of the 2022 GF is an enormous amount of learning. Losing a GF is never a good thing but future winners are those who can learn from a loss. Geelong's premierships in 2011 and 2022 came after 41 and 83 point beltings saw them bundled them out of finals the year before. With recent loss the lessons are more painful, the learning fresh, for players and coaches alike. Look at how Geelong's loss to Hawthorn in 2008 pushed them to win 2009 and 2011, or how Hawks responded to 2012 with the next three in a row. Horse may have reviewed the 2022 GF with the players but it will be fresh and motivating. After 2016 our list was ageing and most of the lessons were about what cheats the umpires were, hardly inspiring. But this recent loss happened to a team that is still driving towards its peak. It will leave a lasting impression and they do have the means to do something about it. It leaves us with an even better coach and an even better team. We'd be mad not to use that.

Happy 2023. A year of ultimate success for our Swans
 
RubbaDuck said:
Time for an essay.

Retain. Longmire built arguably the most successful Swans team of all time, certainly the best Sydney Swans team. Over the first couple of decades of the 21st century, only Geelong could lay claim to being a more consistently competitive team and Longmire has been a big part of that. He took those Swans to three premiership deciders, winning 2012, losing 2014 and watching on frustrated and helpless as the AFL decided the outcome of 2016.

When the AFL decided to tie the hands of these upstart Sydney-siders who dared to dream of a true national game, northern nuisances who messed up the AFL's precious model of how footy would evolve in Sydney. Another coach might have called it a day. Faced with an ageing list, and failing performance, Longmire instead said f.. you to any regrets and built a whole new team, almost from scratch. He did it with only two years out of finals contention, in the middle of a pandemic while bound by the salary cap constraints of Buddy's long term contract. He changed to an entirely new game plan and gave it to the team to own. That tells me all I need to know about Horse's commitment and passion. He stripped the team right back to bare metal and built a better team, heavily slanted towards local NSW players and destined for a generation of success, brim full of talented youth and determination. This is a team totally committed to Horse's vision, who would follow him to hell and back

Of course it hasn't been just Horse, a coach needs a club behind them and full credit to the Swans as a club. They've achieved this without COLA, despite the pull of homesickness which plagues northern clubs and without needing a bunch of early picks gained through years at the bottom. The Swans' recruiters have sifted a lot of oysters to find pearls. They've given talent the space to grow. They've nurtured, respected, led and protected players. They've embraced them in a supportive culture, of caring, determination, teamwork and self-sacrifice. A culture that players are proud to be part of.

I know many, if not most, will see the 2022 GF as a failure. I'd argue it was an over-achievement. We shot right past teams like Richmond, Melbourne, Brisbane, Port, Freo, Dogs and Carlton, teams who were all rated much higher than we were. Though to be fair, very few footy journos rated Geelong. I certainly did. Geelong had the most important asset for finals, something Horse couldn't instill in his young players. Geelong had experience. Bags and bags of experience. More experience than any other team.

Most of our players had played in just the one final before 2022, they'd never won a final. Chris Scott's team were battle hardened veterans who'd made just about every mistake it was possible to make in a final. They'd been bundled out of more than a decade of finals, led by the AFL's most experienced finals player of all time. Selwood finished his career as a veteran of forty finals, losing 18 and winning 22. Half our players haven't played that many home and away games. Selwood retired with four premierships and lost a couple more, losing from a huge lead as recently as 2020. His good mate Tom Hawkins is the second most experienced of any current finals player and the fourth most experienced AFL finals player of all time. To understand just how experienced Geelong are, of the top ten current players in terms of finals experience, seven are Geelong players.

Taking a step back, the fact that the Swans got to the 2022 GF after many had only played one losing final before is just an incredible achievement. We whipped the reigning premiers (twice) and we held on against the odds to a Collingwood side whose MO in the latter part of the season was winning impossibly close games against all the odds. We refused to follow their script. After an unbeaten blitz at the pointy end of the season, is it any wonder we were all so blinded by the glare of unbridled optimism, dreaming of the near impossible, that we were entirely unprepared when the cold wet fish of reality slapped us hard across our collective faces. No-one likes to show a fish-slapped-face to the world but there we stood as a team, dark red welt across our cheek, residual slime dripping from the side of the nose and a stubborn fishy odour.

Chris Scott did not leave anything to chance. From strategic recruitment to bolster every and any weakness, to tweaks to the Cats' game plan to a more free flowing hard running fast attacking game, to taking no risks with injured players. Every move Scott made seemed designed to counter every possible thing that had gone wrong in previous attempts or could go wrong. There was never going to be a 2nd half fade-out, their feet stayed on our throats. They knew that would never get a better chance, against a more inexperienced opposition with guys like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield desperate for one last chance. The lessons Scott had learned since his first and last premiership were all on show. This was Geelong's premiership to lose and Scott knew it. He used every drop of knowledge gleaned from his and his team's considerable finals experience. His team were flying high on confidence. They played out of their skins. Geelong were simply magnificent. The best I have ever seen a team play. It wasn't us making them look good. We didn't play badly, we didn't fall apart in shock as we had in 2014. No team in the league would have got within a whiff of such a complete performance, no matter the wild claims Pies fans keep making. Geelong did just enough to beat them on the first final. Against us they held nothing back. Credit that we fought on, refusing to go into our shells. I can't help but admire Fox for trying to swing the tide single handed. Damn he was brave, foolish, doomed, but brave and he inspired others to lift further.

Our team, with very little finals experience, were already playing well above expectations when we reached the GF. Horse and Pyke had found a winning formula in the back half of the year, but it depended very much on Sam Reid's ability to fill a number of key roles. He brought enormous forward pressure, sticking tackles and intercepting marks. He provided a dangerous tall marking target, one who was rarely beaten in the air. Reid would either mark the ball or bring it to ground. What's more, Reid was kicking goals. As a backup ruckman he used his bulk and timed his leap to make up for his lowly 197cm stature. Reid is also very good when the ball is on the deck. In Round 17 he took the chocolates having to solo ruck against Tim English after Ladhams went down. Reid's ability below his knees and speed to react when the ball hits the ground effectively provides another midfield option. Most importantly, Reid was able to play these multiple roles pretty much at the same time. He was also a very effective tall defender when the game needed to be shut down. While we have a number of tall options who can perform some of these roles, we have no-one who can fill all of Reid's shoes at once. To say Reid was critical to our team is an understatement. Collingwood's comeback after Reid went down was a warning. Longmire's choice was to drop Reid and lose or play Reid and take the risk.

It would be a travesty to retire Longmire when he's put so much into this team, made so much progress and gained so much more insight for 2023. I back Horse/Pyke to build on the success of 2022. I say Horse/Pyke because it seems they work very well together. Not only does Pyke bring new perspectives, which Horse is clearly not too proud to learn from, but it must be enormousluy helpful for Horse to have another senior coach to bounce ideas off. Pyke's confident outspokeness and the apparent ease of their working arrangement suggests that he and Horse are on the same page.

In 2022 we tested ourselves against arguably the most experienced and well-prepared finals side of the past few decades. This was no brave-dogs fluke, helped by friendly umps. Geelong get few favours from the AFL. I'd have liked to have returned a bit more fire but there was no shame in being given a lesson by Geelong of 2022. I have a feeling we're in for several return bouts.

All we got out of the 2022 GF is an enormous amount of learning. Losing a GF is never a good thing but future winners are those who can learn from a loss. Geelong's premierships in 2011 and 2022 came after 41 and 83 point beltings saw them bundled them out of finals the year before. With recent loss the lessons are more painful, the learning fresh, for players and coaches alike. Look at how Geelong's loss to Hawthorn in 2008 pushed them to win 2009 and 2011, or how Hawks responded to 2012 with the next three in a row. Horse may have reviewed the 2022 GF with the players but it will be fresh and motivating. After 2016 our list was ageing and most of the lessons were about what cheats the umpires were, hardly inspiring. But this recent loss happened to a team that is still driving towards its peak. It will leave a lasting impression and they do have the means to do something about it. It leaves us with an even better coach and an even better team. We'd be mad not to use that.

Happy 2023. A year of ultimate success for our Swans
Click to expand...
Brilliant post and spot on with every point 👍
 
RubbaDuck said:
Time for an essay.

Retain. Longmire built arguably the most successful Swans team of all time, certainly the best Sydney Swans team. Over the first couple of decades of the 21st century, only Geelong could lay claim to being a more consistently competitive team and Longmire has been a big part of that. He took those Swans to three premiership deciders, winning 2012, losing 2014 and watching on frustrated and helpless as the AFL decided the outcome of 2016.

When the AFL decided to tie the hands of these upstart Sydney-siders who dared to dream of a true national game, northern nuisances who messed up the AFL's precious model of how footy would evolve in Sydney. Another coach might have called it a day. Faced with an ageing list, and failing performance, Longmire instead said f.. you to any regrets and built a whole new team, almost from scratch. He did it with only two years out of finals contention, in the middle of a pandemic while bound by the salary cap constraints of Buddy's long term contract. He changed to an entirely new game plan and gave it to the team to own. That tells me all I need to know about Horse's commitment and passion. He stripped the team right back to bare metal and built a better team, heavily slanted towards local NSW players and destined for a generation of success, brim full of talented youth and determination. This is a team totally committed to Horse's vision, who would follow him to hell and back

Of course it hasn't been just Horse, a coach needs a club behind them and full credit to the Swans as a club. They've achieved this without COLA, despite the pull of homesickness which plagues northern clubs and without needing a bunch of early picks gained through years at the bottom. The Swans' recruiters have sifted a lot of oysters to find pearls. They've given talent the space to grow. They've nurtured, respected, led and protected players. They've embraced them in a supportive culture, of caring, determination, teamwork and self-sacrifice. A culture that players are proud to be part of.

I know many, if not most, will see the 2022 GF as a failure. I'd argue it was an over-achievement. We shot right past teams like Richmond, Melbourne, Brisbane, Port, Freo, Dogs and Carlton, teams who were all rated much higher than we were. Though to be fair, very few footy journos rated Geelong. I certainly did. Geelong had the most important asset for finals, something Horse couldn't instill in his young players. Geelong had experience. Bags and bags of experience. More experience than any other team.

Most of our players had played in just the one final before 2022, they'd never won a final. Chris Scott's team were battle hardened veterans who'd made just about every mistake it was possible to make in a final. They'd been bundled out of more than a decade of finals, led by the AFL's most experienced finals player of all time. Selwood finished his career as a veteran of forty finals, losing 18 and winning 22. Half our players haven't played that many home and away games. Selwood retired with four premierships and lost a couple more, losing from a huge lead as recently as 2020. His good mate Tom Hawkins is the second most experienced of any current finals player and the fourth most experienced AFL finals player of all time. To understand just how experienced Geelong are, of the top ten current players in terms of finals experience, seven are Geelong players.

Taking a step back, the fact that the Swans got to the 2022 GF after many had only played one losing final before is just an incredible achievement. We whipped the reigning premiers (twice) and we held on against the odds to a Collingwood side whose MO in the latter part of the season was winning impossibly close games against all the odds. We refused to follow their script. After an unbeaten blitz at the pointy end of the season, is it any wonder we were all so blinded by the glare of unbridled optimism, dreaming of the near impossible, that we were entirely unprepared when the cold wet fish of reality slapped us hard across our collective faces. No-one likes to show a fish-slapped-face to the world but there we stood as a team, dark red welt across our cheek, residual slime dripping from the side of the nose and a stubborn fishy odour.

Chris Scott did not leave anything to chance. From strategic recruitment to bolster every and any weakness, to tweaks to the Cats' game plan to a more free flowing hard running fast attacking game, to taking no risks with injured players. Every move Scott made seemed designed to counter every possible thing that had gone wrong in previous attempts or could go wrong. There was never going to be a 2nd half fade-out, their feet stayed on our throats. They knew that would never get a better chance, against a more inexperienced opposition with guys like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield desperate for one last chance. The lessons Scott had learned since his first and last premiership were all on show. This was Geelong's premiership to lose and Scott knew it. He used every drop of knowledge gleaned from his and his team's considerable finals experience. His team were flying high on confidence. They played out of their skins. Geelong were simply magnificent. The best I have ever seen a team play. It wasn't us making them look good. We didn't play badly, we didn't fall apart in shock as we had in 2014. No team in the league would have got within a whiff of such a complete performance, no matter the wild claims Pies fans keep making. Geelong did just enough to beat them on the first final. Against us they held nothing back. Credit that we fought on, refusing to go into our shells. I can't help but admire Fox for trying to swing the tide single handed. Damn he was brave, foolish, doomed, but brave and he inspired others to lift further.

Our team, with very little finals experience, were already playing well above expectations when we reached the GF. Horse and Pyke had found a winning formula in the back half of the year, but it depended very much on Sam Reid's ability to fill a number of key roles. He brought enormous forward pressure, sticking tackles and intercepting marks. He provided a dangerous tall marking target, one who was rarely beaten in the air. Reid would either mark the ball or bring it to ground. What's more, Reid was kicking goals. As a backup ruckman he used his bulk and timed his leap to make up for his lowly 197cm stature. Reid is also very good when the ball is on the deck. In Round 17 he took the chocolates having to solo ruck against Tim English after Ladhams went down. Reid's ability below his knees and speed to react when the ball hits the ground effectively provides another midfield option. Most importantly, Reid was able to play these multiple roles pretty much at the same time. He was also a very effective tall defender when the game needed to be shut down. While we have a number of tall options who can perform some of these roles, we have no-one who can fill all of Reid's shoes at once. To say Reid was critical to our team is an understatement. Collingwood's comeback after Reid went down was a warning. Longmire's choice was to drop Reid and lose or play Reid and take the risk.

It would be a travesty to retire Longmire when he's put so much into this team, made so much progress and gained so much more insight for 2023. I back Horse/Pyke to build on the success of 2022. I say Horse/Pyke because it seems they work very well together. Not only does Pyke bring new perspectives, which Horse is clearly not too proud to learn from, but it must be enormousluy helpful for Horse to have another senior coach to bounce ideas off. Pyke's confident outspokeness and the apparent ease of their working arrangement suggests that he and Horse are on the same page.

In 2022 we tested ourselves against arguably the most experienced and well-prepared finals side of the past few decades. This was no brave-dogs fluke, helped by friendly umps. Geelong get few favours from the AFL. I'd have liked to have returned a bit more fire but there was no shame in being given a lesson by Geelong of 2022. I have a feeling we're in for several return bouts.

All we got out of the 2022 GF is an enormous amount of learning. Losing a GF is never a good thing but future winners are those who can learn from a loss. Geelong's premierships in 2011 and 2022 came after 41 and 83 point beltings saw them bundled them out of finals the year before. With recent loss the lessons are more painful, the learning fresh, for players and coaches alike. Look at how Geelong's loss to Hawthorn in 2008 pushed them to win 2009 and 2011, or how Hawks responded to 2012 with the next three in a row. Horse may have reviewed the 2022 GF with the players but it will be fresh and motivating. After 2016 our list was ageing and most of the lessons were about what cheats the umpires were, hardly inspiring. But this recent loss happened to a team that is still driving towards its peak. It will leave a lasting impression and they do have the means to do something about it. It leaves us with an even better coach and an even better team. We'd be mad not to use that.

Happy 2023. A year of ultimate success for our Swans
Click to expand...
You weren't joking about an essay, can I have tl;dr lol
 
Dubai Quacker said:
I say retain, but prepare a successor similar to the Roos - Horse arrangement.

I’m not sure if the succession plan is in place. Pyke? Cox? McVeigh? Someone else? Nobody?
Click to expand...
Cox or Cameron.
Pyke seems happy to be a senior assistant, with Horse at least.
McVeighJ not experienced enough.
McVeighM tainted by the druggies IMO.
Mathews and Buchanan don't seem to be in the picture.
Someone not currently with the club a long shot.
 
Kiama Chris said:
Cox or Cameron.
Pyke seems happy to be a senior assistant, with Horse at least.
McVeighJ not experienced enough.
McVeighM tainted by the druggies IMO.
Mathews and Buchanan don't seem to be in the picture.
Someone not currently with the club a long shot.
Click to expand...

Please not Cameron.
 

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RubbaDuck said:
Time for an essay.

Retain. Longmire built arguably the most successful Swans team of all time, certainly the best Sydney Swans team. Over the first couple of decades of the 21st century, only Geelong could lay claim to being a more consistently competitive team and Longmire has been a big part of that. He took those Swans to three premiership deciders, winning 2012, losing 2014 and watching on frustrated and helpless as the AFL decided the outcome of 2016.

When the AFL decided to tie the hands of these upstart Sydney-siders who dared to dream of a true national game, northern nuisances who messed up the AFL's precious model of how footy would evolve in Sydney. Another coach might have called it a day. Faced with an ageing list, and failing performance, Longmire instead said f.. you to any regrets and built a whole new team, almost from scratch. He did it with only two years out of finals contention, in the middle of a pandemic while bound by the salary cap constraints of Buddy's long term contract. He changed to an entirely new game plan and gave it to the team to own. That tells me all I need to know about Horse's commitment and passion. He stripped the team right back to bare metal and built a better team, heavily slanted towards local NSW players and destined for a generation of success, brim full of talented youth and determination. This is a team totally committed to Horse's vision, who would follow him to hell and back

Of course it hasn't been just Horse, a coach needs a club behind them and full credit to the Swans as a club. They've achieved this without COLA, despite the pull of homesickness which plagues northern clubs and without needing a bunch of early picks gained through years at the bottom. The Swans' recruiters have sifted a lot of oysters to find pearls. They've given talent the space to grow. They've nurtured, respected, led and protected players. They've embraced them in a supportive culture, of caring, determination, teamwork and self-sacrifice. A culture that players are proud to be part of.

I know many, if not most, will see the 2022 GF as a failure. I'd argue it was an over-achievement. We shot right past teams like Richmond, Melbourne, Brisbane, Port, Freo, Dogs and Carlton, teams who were all rated much higher than we were. Though to be fair, very few footy journos rated Geelong. I certainly did. Geelong had the most important asset for finals, something Horse couldn't instill in his young players. Geelong had experience. Bags and bags of experience. More experience than any other team.

Most of our players had played in just the one final before 2022, they'd never won a final. Chris Scott's team were battle hardened veterans who'd made just about every mistake it was possible to make in a final. They'd been bundled out of more than a decade of finals, led by the AFL's most experienced finals player of all time. Selwood finished his career as a veteran of forty finals, losing 18 and winning 22. Half our players haven't played that many home and away games. Selwood retired with four premierships and lost a couple more, losing from a huge lead as recently as 2020. His good mate Tom Hawkins is the second most experienced of any current finals player and the fourth most experienced AFL finals player of all time. To understand just how experienced Geelong are, of the top ten current players in terms of finals experience, seven are Geelong players.

Taking a step back, the fact that the Swans got to the 2022 GF after many had only played one losing final before is just an incredible achievement. We whipped the reigning premiers (twice) and we held on against the odds to a Collingwood side whose MO in the latter part of the season was winning impossibly close games against all the odds. We refused to follow their script. After an unbeaten blitz at the pointy end of the season, is it any wonder we were all so blinded by the glare of unbridled optimism, dreaming of the near impossible, that we were entirely unprepared when the cold wet fish of reality slapped us hard across our collective faces. No-one likes to show a fish-slapped-face to the world but there we stood as a team, dark red welt across our cheek, residual slime dripping from the side of the nose and a stubborn fishy odour.

Chris Scott did not leave anything to chance. From strategic recruitment to bolster every and any weakness, to tweaks to the Cats' game plan to a more free flowing hard running fast attacking game, to taking no risks with injured players. Every move Scott made seemed designed to counter every possible thing that had gone wrong in previous attempts or could go wrong. There was never going to be a 2nd half fade-out, their feet stayed on our throats. They knew that would never get a better chance, against a more inexperienced opposition with guys like Selwood, Hawkins and Dangerfield desperate for one last chance. The lessons Scott had learned since his first and last premiership were all on show. This was Geelong's premiership to lose and Scott knew it. He used every drop of knowledge gleaned from his and his team's considerable finals experience. His team were flying high on confidence. They played out of their skins. Geelong were simply magnificent. The best I have ever seen a team play. It wasn't us making them look good. We didn't play badly, we didn't fall apart in shock as we had in 2014. No team in the league would have got within a whiff of such a complete performance, no matter the wild claims Pies fans keep making. Geelong did just enough to beat them on the first final. Against us they held nothing back. Credit that we fought on, refusing to go into our shells. I can't help but admire Fox for trying to swing the tide single handed. Damn he was brave, foolish, doomed, but brave and he inspired others to lift further.

Our team, with very little finals experience, were already playing well above expectations when we reached the GF. Horse and Pyke had found a winning formula in the back half of the year, but it depended very much on Sam Reid's ability to fill a number of key roles. He brought enormous forward pressure, sticking tackles and intercepting marks. He provided a dangerous tall marking target, one who was rarely beaten in the air. Reid would either mark the ball or bring it to ground. What's more, Reid was kicking goals. As a backup ruckman he used his bulk and timed his leap to make up for his lowly 197cm stature. Reid is also very good when the ball is on the deck. In Round 17 he took the chocolates having to solo ruck against Tim English after Ladhams went down. Reid's ability below his knees and speed to react when the ball hits the ground effectively provides another midfield option. Most importantly, Reid was able to play these multiple roles pretty much at the same time. He was also a very effective tall defender when the game needed to be shut down. While we have a number of tall options who can perform some of these roles, we have no-one who can fill all of Reid's shoes at once. To say Reid was critical to our team is an understatement. Collingwood's comeback after Reid went down was a warning. Longmire's choice was to drop Reid and lose or play Reid and take the risk.

It would be a travesty to retire Longmire when he's put so much into this team, made so much progress and gained so much more insight for 2023. I back Horse/Pyke to build on the success of 2022. I say Horse/Pyke because it seems they work very well together. Not only does Pyke bring new perspectives, which Horse is clearly not too proud to learn from, but it must be enormousluy helpful for Horse to have another senior coach to bounce ideas off. Pyke's confident outspokeness and the apparent ease of their working arrangement suggests that he and Horse are on the same page.

In 2022 we tested ourselves against arguably the most experienced and well-prepared finals side of the past few decades. This was no brave-dogs fluke, helped by friendly umps. Geelong get few favours from the AFL. I'd have liked to have returned a bit more fire but there was no shame in being given a lesson by Geelong of 2022. I have a feeling we're in for several return bouts.

All we got out of the 2022 GF is an enormous amount of learning. Losing a GF is never a good thing but future winners are those who can learn from a loss. Geelong's premierships in 2011 and 2022 came after 41 and 83 point beltings saw them bundled them out of finals the year before. With recent loss the lessons are more painful, the learning fresh, for players and coaches alike. Look at how Geelong's loss to Hawthorn in 2008 pushed them to win 2009 and 2011, or how Hawks responded to 2012 with the next three in a row. Horse may have reviewed the 2022 GF with the players but it will be fresh and motivating. After 2016 our list was ageing and most of the lessons were about what cheats the umpires were, hardly inspiring. But this recent loss happened to a team that is still driving towards its peak. It will leave a lasting impression and they do have the means to do something about it. It leaves us with an even better coach and an even better team. We'd be mad not to use that.

Happy 2023. A year of ultimate success for our Swans
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Fabulous insights. Thanks mate.
 
Fantastic post, RubbaDuck!

I don't know why we are moving to contemplating Cox or Cameron when Horse hasn't yet shown signs of slowing down. Not only do I prefer Horse but I'm not sure either of those guys is the answer. I can imagine McVeigh in years to come but he has a lot to learn in the meantime.

I have a friend that has been talking about "succession planning" for Horse since about 9 years ago! I'm glad we've stuck phat and I'm still in no rush to change.
 
I get the impression that Horse has a fair degree of self awareness and won't overstay his welcome.
When he thinks his time is up and he's got as much as he can from the players or simply has had enough of coaching he'll happily return to the family farm.

And in the unlikely event that he does stay on past his 'use by date' my view is that the transition to a new coach will be handled in an appropriate and respectful manner by the club itself.
 
Callipygian said:
Fantastic post, RubbaDuck!

I don't know why we are moving to contemplating Cox or Cameron when Horse hasn't yet shown signs of slowing down. Not only do I prefer Horse but I'm not sure either of those guys is the answer. I can imagine McVeigh in years to come but he has a lot to learn in the meantime.

I have a friend that has been talking about "succession planning" for Horse since about 9 years ago! I'm glad we've stuck phat and I'm still in no rush to change.
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Great user name! One of my favourite words.
 
I would bet my house that if Dean Cox isn't swooped up by some other club (most likely a WA club) by the time Horse's tenure comes to an end, he'll be Horse's 'chosen one'. He appears to be most actively involved with Horse on match days, as the commentators seem so fond of pointing out every time he cops Horse's sprays. He seems to have a great connection with the playing group, frequently popping up at their social gatherings away from the club. He's been by Horse's side the longest out of all his current assistant coaches. And his journey is also just most like that of Horse's: a great player who moved interstate for a lengthy coaching apprenticeship, primed to be part of a succession plan a la Roos & Horse.

All depends on Cox's patience I guess, because Horse ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
 
caesar88 said:
I would bet my house that if Dean Cox isn't swooped up by some other club (most likely a WA club) by the time Horse's tenure comes to an end, he'll be Horse's 'chosen one'. He appears to be most actively involved with Horse on match days, as the commentators seem so fond of pointing out every time he cops Horse's sprays. He seems to have a great connection with the playing group, frequently popping up at their social gatherings away from the club. He's been by Horse's side the longest out of all his current assistant coaches. And his journey is also just most like that of Horse's: a great player who moved interstate for a lengthy coaching apprenticeship, primed to be part of a succession plan a la Roos & Horse.

All depends on Cox's patience I guess, because Horse ain't going anywhere anytime soon.
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Agree. I wish McPointy would take a sabbatical at another Club, maybe the Pies and then return. But it won’t work out time wise.

The worry with Cox is West Coast. They are likely to have another dismal year and Simpson will come under a lot of pressure. If he goes, Cox will be chased big time.
 
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