Coach Horse: Retain, Retire, Reinvent?

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caesar88 said:
Things didn't seem to go terribly wrong much of this September when we won two finals? Funny how the criteria for Horse seems to change. "Win a final" becomes "win a grand final" once he starts, y'know, winning finals...

The prelim final was rather illuminating IMO. Rose-coloured glasses and the urge to be optimistic made us think the second half fade-out of that game was nothing to be concerned about, but we carried that exact form into the GF the week after, which suggests a lot of our boys simply might not've had much left in the tank.

Which does make the Blicavs move a relevant one. Suddenly we're up against a 198cm giant being deployed in a way that no other team had encountered all year. (82% CBAs in the GF playing as a mid, his highest all year by a long way - next highest was 50% earlier in the year. This proves it was a deliberate and engineered plan to blindside us and disrupt our midfield, and it worked. Even a team firing on all cyllinders would find life difficult with that, let alone one that seems half-baked. Not saying it won them the game but I think it was the initial boot they laid in that we did not. Doesn't hurt to acknowledge an opposition move and give it credit...

As for Warner starting on the bench, did you see our other finals? As fantastic as his season was, he was our 4th-best performing mid in the two finals prior (which is not to say he wasn't still quality). It's the big dance. You're not gonna have anything but your best midfield that got you there to start with. And whilst his resolve to finish out the game strongly and fight til the end was impressive, he was no better than any of our other players when the heat was on and the game was there to be won. 4 disposals in the first quarter.

As awful as it was to watch, I actually found this year's GF the least disappointing out of all three, including 2016. The benefit of hindsight showed we just didn't have enough left to give for whatever reason, and I think even his staunchest advocates have acknowledged that's something he needs to address and fix.
caesar88 said:
Things didn't seem to go terribly wrong much of this September when we won two finals? Funny how the criteria for Horse seems to change. "Win a final" becomes "win a grand final" once he starts, y'know, winning finals...

The prelim final was rather illuminating IMO. Rose-coloured glasses and the urge to be optimistic made us think the second half fade-out of that game was nothing to be concerned about, but we carried that exact form into the GF the week after, which suggests a lot of our boys simply might not've had much left in the tank.

Which does make the Blicavs move a relevant one. Suddenly we're up against a 198cm giant being deployed in a way that no other team had encountered all year. (82% CBAs in the GF playing as a mid, his highest all year by a long way - next highest was 50% earlier in the year. This proves it was a deliberate and engineered plan to blindside us and disrupt our midfield, and it worked. Even a team firing on all cyllinders would find life difficult with that, let alone one that seems half-baked. Not saying it won them the game but I think it was the initial boot they laid in that we did not. Doesn't hurt to acknowledge an opposition move and give it credit...

As for Warner starting on the bench, did you see our other finals? As fantastic as his season was, he was our 4th-best performing mid in the two finals prior (which is not to say he wasn't still quality). It's the big dance. You're not gonna have anything but your best midfield that got you there to start with. And whilst his resolve to finish out the game strongly and fight til the end was impressive, he was no better than any of our other players when the heat was on and the game was there to be won. 4 disposals in the first quarter.

As awful as it was to watch, I actually found this year's GF the least disappointing out of all three, including 2016. The benefit of hindsight showed we just didn't have enough left to give and against a rampaging team that had done it with ease, it's no wonder it was such an assault. On the matter of rallying our players for the occasion, I am with you. It's incredibly disappointing that we have to keep being disappointed in our most experienced players and leaders in grand finals. Horse isn't getting through to them for whatever reason, and I think even his staunchest advocates have acknowledged that's something he needs to address and fix.
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What on earth are you talking about - go back and check factually on Warner particularly the prelim - most metres gained Finished with 22 touches, 71 per cent kicking efficiency. 12 contested possessions and nine inside 50s, while he was the No. 1 metres gained player on the field. -

a lot of nice feels in your post very few facts -
 
M F JONES said:
What on earth are you talking about - go back and check factually on Warner particularly the prelim - most metres gained Finished with 22 touches, 71 per cent kicking efficiency. 12 contested possessions and nine inside 50s, while he was the No. 1 metres gained player on the field. -

a lot of nice feels in your post very few facts -
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Go back and check factually on my post and you will see nowhere did I criticise Warner's performance in the prelim. I specifically said he was quality. I said he was the 4th-best performing mid over the first two finals, and I don't think there's any shame in that given how our midfield performed in those first two finals, nor do I think it's a particularly bold statement.

Coaches votes over the first two finals: Parker - 13
Mills - 11
Rowbottom - 3
Warner - 0

POTY votes by this board over the first two finals:
Mills / Rowbottom - 8
Parker - 4
Warner - 0

I just don't think your gripe with Warner starting on the bench is a hill worth dying on, but to each their own.
 

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mtooler said:
Apologies, I got it wrong, let's go for 2020 haha. 2021 was certainly a change in approach.
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Pretty sure I have commented on this before, maybe not the place to get into it, but 2020 was exactly the same approach, just not the right personnel. We were without five, occasionally six, of our best 22: Naismith, Buddy, JPK, Hewett, Heeney and Rampe.

Take out Stanley, Cameron, Selwood, Guthrie, Dangerfield and Stewart this year and do you think they even make finals?

Nevertheless we still played some great, dynamic footy. The performance we gave in the Perth derby of 2020 I would argue is as good as any performance we've had in the last three seasons, our finals wins this year included. It showed that when it came together, we'd be formidable. It just didn't come together consistently enough until 2021.
 
Has there been another coach to make grand finals with vastly different teams?

Might just be him and Scott.

Either way, if he wants to go he goes on, if he doesn't he leaves us in an amazing place.
 
Kapers said:
Has there been another coach to make grand finals with vastly different teams?

Might just be him and Scott.

Either way, if he wants to go he goes on, if he doesn't he leaves us in an amazing place.
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Only 1 of those won flags with those different teams though
 
Millky95 said:
Only 1 of those won flags with those different teams though
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You will be very disappointed if the only metric you pay attention to is grand final wins. By basically every metric, we were the second-best team, and by proxy, Horse is probably the second-best coach at the moment.

IMO, Horse has had many more limitations on his list compared to Scott. We both brought in argueably the best key forwards in the game at the time, and they were met with admiration while we were scrutinised. Longmire has rebuilt the side from the group up, by blooding kids and developing a new game style.

Scott has had the luxury of being a destination club for the last 10, in fact his best players in the elimination finals (Cameron) and Grand final (Isaac Smith) both came from being a destination club.

Both coaches are really good, and bemoaning Longmire for the grandfinal is fair, but to completely dismiss Horse compared to Scott is an oversight.

ALSO ALSO, if Logan leaves after being dropped, that's on Logan, not Longmire.
 

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M F JONES said:
Its a wait for me -
We seem to think our GF was a 1 off blow out -
Since 2017 our finals record is not great at all (just in years where we have played)
2017 - Lost to Cats x 59
2018 - Lost to GWS X 49
2021 - lost to GWS X 1 - should have never lost that game.

Then we look at 2014 GF. That was gone by 1/4 time as well

2016 - GF we were screwed over massively - but we must also recognise we played 3 under done players in Tippett - Mills & McV

This year we play a clearly unfit Reid -

Love Horse as a coach & Mentor but something goes terribly wrong come Sept. -

And please Biclavs playing in the Guts is not a shock and shouldnt dismantle your plans that badly -
WTAF starting Chad on the bench…
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Wait for what? The last game of our season before making a call …depending on the margin of that last game?
 
First, I'm surprised Horse's contract is already up for renewal!

Second, absolute no brainer - extend. He'd widely be regarded as one of the handful of best coaches in the game. The only coach some might have said was clearly better has recently had a bit of shade thrown on his legacy.

Third, I don't hold Horse solely responsible for selection - there is a match committee that does that. Horse might be the loudest voice but he can be outvoted.

Last, I'm gutted that we've only won 1/4 grannies under Horse. But I'm much more prepared to give kudos for getting to 4 grannies in that same period. Nobody has done better. Not the Hawks, not the Tigers, not the Cats. Winning 1 out of 4 is well within a standard deviation if you're assuming we're 50/50 chances in each granny. In this most recent GF edition, I expected the match to be a lot closer but, in hindsight, Geelong were the clearly best team all season and deserved to start favourites. (Can't say the same about the previous 2 grannies we contested.) We on the other hand overperformed just to get to the GF. Plenty didn't tip us to make the 8 in 2022.

Everyone speaks highly of Horse. He's a good guy who builds strong relationships with both the playing group and across the club and that doesn't have the thuggish tendencies of some of the other elite coaches.

To some extent renewal can be achieved by updating his assistants from time to time, which we have done superbly in recent years.

Plus, as far as game plan, I think Horse inherited a team when he started and had to develop a game plan based on the type of team he had at his disposal. From the outset, when he got to have input to the 2009 draft before he had coached a game, he started pushing for speed and skill (rather than just strong contested footy players) and selected Rohan and Jetta. Ever since we have been picking more of those types of players and, gradually, the team has transformed. Now we're still strong at contested footy but we're a lot more quick and skilful than we ever were.
 
The King! said:
I reckon if he coaches his last year with his succesor as his assistant
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Hopefully his succession plan is more like Roos' compared to Clarkson's
 
Millky95 said:
What if Horse doesn't want to coach after this year?
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Cox, I'm thinking... but we should be able to tell during this coming season if so...

I wouldn't be bringing in anyone from outside.
 
Heeney2Franklin said:
I dont think he would wanna go out like that.

Surely this group has another chance in them.
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Sure they do. However being in the Chair so long takes its toll. At the end of the season he did not look all that well. He has dropped a bit of weight in the past 2 months and his colour looks better

If he pulls the pin next year I reckon the Club will do it's utmost to keep him, hopefully as Footy Director .

If Simpson leaves the Weasels I imagine they would have a great interest in Cox.

I kinda wish McPointy had set up a stint under another good coach, but no doubt he has the acumen for the job. Pyke is tactically strong but I am not convinced he has relationship building skills needed.
 
Like the idea of pushing him up into a football director role if he doesn't want to continue as coach otherwise extend for two more years.
I think it was Paul Kelly who said when Eade left that you can only hear the same things so many times from the one person so for Horse to keep going for so long shows how he has adapted through the years.
I don't really see anyone else currently across the AFL that would be an improvement on horse.
 
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