Coach Horse: Retain, Retire, Reinvent?

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I'm very pleased we re-signed Horse.

It's really weird that people complain about him not being successful enough when most other clubs have been diabolical messes at one stage or another during Horse's tenure. Once you're in that place, there's no guarantee you'll get out. Look how long it took Melbourne and Brisbane, how long it's taken Carlton and Gold Coast.

So it's definitely preferable that we have a coach who will keep us out of there in the first place.

The players seem to love him, he's done an awesome job with the current list, and the last thing we want to do is pull the rug out from under so many of our players who are well on track under the reins of Horse (thank you) and have only ever known AFL with him as their coach.

That said, please solve the GF issues Horse!
 
caesar88 said:
Did we have talented lists?

2012-2017 weren't we carried by Buddy and JPK?

2018 weren't we supposed to have started our rebuild already by that point rather than trying for finals?

2021 wasn't our team full of holes that needed to be filled during trade period?

Sorry for asking. Just trying to keep up with the goalposts.
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Depends who you ask, but if he didn't , why not? whats the club been doing

aren't we one of the best clubs?
 

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My very amateur opinion:

Horse’s calm, measured demeanour enables him to keep the side performing at a consistent level for long periods.

He doesn’t strike me as a bloke that’d get the side all fired up one week, only to be flat the next. He seems to approach things in a clam manner with very little hyperbole.

Where I suspect he might struggle, however, is that manic, frothing at the mouth motivational speech that REALLY fires the team up for the massive game. Namely - grand finals.

As much as I can’t stand Alan Jones, ex-Wallaby players constantly say that was his great strength - the motivational speech ahead of the massive game that left them believing they could run through brick walls.
 
MF said:
Most teams in the comp would kill to have a coach with the consistency and stability Horse brings to this team.

Losing finals sucks, especially in embarrassing fashion but I'd take Horse over 95% of coaches over the past 20 years.
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He is a decent bloke (or hides it very well if he is not) and I think that's also a great selling point for the club and culture
 
MF said:
Most teams in the comp would kill to have a coach with the consistency and stability Horse brings to this team.

Losing finals sucks, especially in embarrassing fashion but I'd take Horse over 95% of coaches over the past 20 years.
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Least he makes finals to lose them

Though same could be said for Essendon coaches in recent years
 
Between winning the flag in 2012 and the 2014 Grand Final there were 7 players that were swapped out of the side for one reason or another so nearly a third of the Best 22. Between 2014 and 2016 that number was 9 so nearly a half of the team. For the 2016 Grand Final only 7 players remained from the 2012 side so basically a rebuild on the fly.

Between the 2016 Grand Final and the 2022 Grand Final when people think we have rebuilt there was a swap over of 16 players. Yes losing Grand Final's repeatedly suck but we have kept the side up the top of the ladder for most of Horse time at the club while rebuilding the side twice while challenging for the flag.

Yes how we approach Grand Final week and the match itself needs to be looked at but there is no reason we would be looking for another coach at this point in time.
 
robbieando said:
Between winning the flag in 2012 and the 2014 Grand Final there were 7 players that were swapped out of the side for one reason or another so nearly a third of the Best 22. Between 2014 and 2016 that number was 9 so nearly a half of the team. For the 2016 Grand Final only 7 players remained from the 2012 side so basically a rebuild on the fly.

Between the 2016 Grand Final and the 2022 Grand Final when people think we have rebuilt there was a swap over of 16 players. Yes losing Grand Final's repeatedly suck but we have kept the side up the top of the ladder for most of Horse time at the club while rebuilding the side twice while challenging for the flag.

Yes how we approach Grand Final week and the match itself needs to be looked at but there is no reason we would be looking for another coach at this point in time.
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So what is it about Grand Finals that induce our worst performances of the season? is it the message? preparation? lack of inspiration from the coaching staff.

Is it perhaps a fatal flaw in Longmire as he treats GF as a normal week in his own words?

Always value your insights.
 
Heeney2Franklin said:
At the end of the extension he would of been involved at the Swans for 20yrs was a assistant to Roos in 2005.
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Actually I think he began as an assistant in 2002 - which would make this his 22nd season at the Swans. Longer than half the playing list has been alive (I haven't done the math - I'm speaking loosely).
 
Horse cops it a lot for our GF performances but I can count on one hand the number of times any of our leaders have been outstanding on the day in our last three grand finals: Buddy and JPK in 2014, JPK in 2016. None of them were in last year's.

I'm sure the messaging and preparation from Horse plays a part in this, but there's also only so much he can do. He's not the one at the top of the race with the players in their final seconds before running onto the ground. He's not the one giving the speeches in the huddle right before the players take to their positions. That's on the captains and the on-field leaders.

I don't subscribe to the idea that they're not big game players, because in other finals and big games, they've delivered for us. But in grand finals, they've let us down, so it's a club-wide issue where everyone needs to take responsibility for their part.
 
I would be happy if he committed to never selecting unfit players in GFs.

I don’t think it possible but it would be great if he took a more ruthless and imbued the players with a killer instinct.
 

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The question is not really would we want someone else at the moment or even anyone doubting Horse (some might want him gone)

Personally I currently think he is fine and I respect his great contribution to the club.

Isn't the question more why now ? I am
not saying now isn't the right time, but he was not going anyway, what if we are bottom 4 half way through the year for example, could have waited to extend based on how we tracked post grand final?
 
caesar88 said:
Horse cops it a lot for our GF performances but I can count on one hand the number of times any of our leaders have been outstanding on the day in our last three grand finals: Buddy and JPK in 2014, JPK in 2016. None of them were in last year's.

I'm sure the messaging and preparation from Horse plays a part in this, but there's also only so much he can do. He's not the one at the top of the race with the players in their final seconds before running onto the ground. He's not the one giving the speeches in the huddle right before the players take to their positions. That's on the captains and the on-field leaders.

I don't subscribe to the idea that they're not big game players, because in other finals and big games, they've delivered for us. But in grand finals, they've let us down, so it's a club-wide issue where everyone needs to take responsibility for their part.
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Agreed, and not saying you do, but in that case he can't get all the credit for masterful rebuilding of a list etc, as there's only so much the coach can do
 
The King! said:
The question is not really would we want someone else at the moment or even anyone doubting Horse (some might want him gone)

Personally I currently think he is fine and I respect his great contribution to the club.

Isn't the question more why now ? I am
not saying now isn't the right time, but he was not going anyway, what if we are bottom 4 half way through the year for example, could have waited to extend based on how we tracked post grand final?
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I think he's proven enough to warrant it. If the Swans are bottom 4 half way through the year I don't think that changes whether we extend Horse's contract or not. He'd still get an extension
 
The King! said:
Agreed, and not saying you do, but in that case he can't get all the credit for masterful rebuilding of a list etc, as there's only so much the coach can do
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There's a difference between giving players roles and strategies that work for them, and making players switch on during a game.
 
caesar88 said:
Horse cops it a lot for our GF performances but I can count on one hand the number of times any of our leaders have been outstanding on the day in our last three grand finals: Buddy and JPK in 2014, JPK in 2016. None of them were in last year's.
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That's why I suggested Fox for the leadership group. Led by example, a schoolteacher (so should be up there with communication skills on our list), should now be the lockiest lock in our 22.

Would have liked him as a Coach's pick.
 
Bloods86 said:
That's why I suggested Fox for the leadership group. Led by example, a schoolteacher (so should be up there with communication skills on our list), should now be the lockiest lock in our 22.

Would have liked him as a Coach's pick.
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I love Fox and he was definitely our BOG in the grand final, but one clutch game a clutch player does not make.

We're really missing a JPK. Not necessarily the way he played, but that player we know going into every single game we'll get the same output from; that he'll perform the same in a tight do-or-die final as he would in a 100 point belting of a cellar dweller. I don't think we have such a player. Mills probably the closest but he's not there (yet).
 
I also think Foxy is one of a handful down the years that Horse under rated. I expect he was surprised at the job Robbie did in the latter part of 2022.Hopefully he engaged in self criticism.

To his credit Horse has shown recent capacity to make hard calls. He has dropped perennial faves when needed eg Blakey and Hayward as well as made the tough call on jpk.
 
caesar88 said:
I love Fox and he was definitely our BOG in the grand final, but one clutch game a clutch player does not make.

We're really missing a JPK. Not necessarily the way he played, but that player we know going into every single game we'll get the same output from; that he'll perform the same in a tight do-or-die final as he would in a 100 point belting of a cellar dweller. I don't think we have such a player. Mills probably the closest but he's not there (yet).
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GUH has touched on it in his response, but I think Robbie is a great case of getting the most out of yourself. He isn't blessed with freakish talent, had a few years in no mans land, and I'll be honest, I was ready to delist. But then he got tried as a KPD, later small/med defender, and he found a role.

I don't think his commitment to the cause was just shown in the GF (and I know you don't either). He's worked hard and defended ferociously in recent times. I'm not going to jump on the 'ticker' bandwagon, but feel like recognition of the example he's setting could have been given. And to do so on a day when not much was going right for anyone else.

Anyway, probably off topic.
 
Grand Uncle Horace said:
I also think Foxy is one of a handful down the years that Horse under rated. I expect he was surprised at the job Robbie did in the latter part of 2022.Hopefully he engaged in self criticism.

To his credit Horse has shown recent capacity to make hard calls. He has dropped perennial faves when needed eg Blakey and Hayward as well as made the tough call on jpk.
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He's a bit slower to drop some players and more ready to call some up (over others), than I'd like, but then a couple of those instances have eventually come good, so I can't complain too much.
 
Bloods86 said:
He's a bit slower to drop some players and more ready to call some up (over others), than I'd like, but then a couple of those instances have eventually come good, so I can't complain too much.
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I also think tactics is mainly the business of other coaches and he concentrates on working with individuals especially young players That said he chairs the show
 
A lot of teams crumble after 2014.

Pathetic GF, trade ban, and then a slew of injuries in 2015 (I still remember Parker injuring his collarbone just before finals).

Everyone predicted a massive drop off in 2016.

I always say that if you're going to base your definition of success on premierships you're never going to be happy. Clarkson, the most successful coach of the modern era by that metric, has ridden his club into the ground and look like not making finals for a few years yet (I know C88 rates the kids, but they're still a ways off).
There's not many coaches that have fielded two different teams for grand finals, and Horse has basically fielded 2.5 different teams.
 
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