How does our youth stack up?

[carnthemlions]

Our youth has potential but at this stage that's it. Will they develop? Are they naturally limited? It's really hard to say at this stage given our lack of breakout players over the last 10 years.

- Andrews looks like he's a huge win but we're yet to see him take a true defensive task. No real surprise given this is only his second year.
- Green is probably the best and most consistent in his particular role.
- Taylor is showing improvement from a very good base. He's the most likely to lead our next midfield.

That's about it in terms of locks in best 22.

- Paparone plays well within himself but is limited by his disposal.

And that's about where I'd call it when it comes to being best 22 against competition for spots.

- Cutler is currently a poor man's Paparone.
- Gardiner hasn't shown he can consistently win one on one in defence.
- McStay fades in and out of games and can show a lack of application.
- Mayes has stagnated.
- Dawson, Schache, Keays, Hipwood and Mathieson have barely played enough (or not at all) to comment on.

We're still playing catch up for years of underwhelming drafting and development. We seem to have picked out talented players who don't want to stay because they know they have the talent to get top jobs elsewhere or limited players who hang around because they don't get headhunted.

Don't agree on the Cutler/Paparone comparison. Cutler is our only quick defender, closed down Motlop with ease in the middle of the ground yesterday coming from a fair way behind. His inconsistency may let him down, but he's heading in the right direction.

 

[dlanod]

Don't agree on the Cutler/Paparone comparison. Cutler is our only quick defender, closed down Motlop with ease in the middle of the ground yesterday coming from a fair way behind. His inconsistency may let him down, but he's heading in the right direction.

The problem with Cutler currently is that while Paps is aware of his limitations and seems to attempt to play to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, Cutler tries to do too much. I wasn't comparing them with their strengths and weaknesses of players.

 

[winged1]

Cutler loses concentration too often and gets caught out of position or inexplicably totally shanks a kick. There is still plenty of upside to him once he sorts this out.

 

[carnthemlions]

The problem with Cutler currently is that while Paps is aware of his limitations and seems to attempt to play to his strengths and minimize his weaknesses, Cutler tries to do too much. I wasn't comparing them with their strengths and weaknesses of players.

Fair enough. Still, I think his willingness to take the game on (even to his own detriment) is something we really lack in the back half. Harwood and Beams are almost timid at times, just don't get involved as much as they could.

 

[SizeMatters]

Our youth has potential but at this stage that's it. Will they develop? Are they naturally limited? It's really hard to say at this stage given our lack of breakout players over the last 10 years.

- Andrews looks like he's a huge win but we're yet to see him take a true defensive task. No real surprise given this is only his second year.
- Green is probably the best and most consistent in his particular role.
- Taylor is showing improvement from a very good base. He's the most likely to lead our next midfield.

That's about it in terms of locks in best 22.

- Paparone plays well within himself but is limited by his disposal.

And that's about where I'd call it when it comes to being best 22 against competition for spots.

- Cutler is currently a poor man's Paparone.
- Gardiner hasn't shown he can consistently win one on one in defence.
- McStay fades in and out of games and can show a lack of application.
- Mayes has stagnated.
- Dawson, Schache, Keays, Hipwood and Mathieson have barely played enough (or not at all) to comment on.

We're still playing catch up for years of underwhelming drafting and development. We seem to have picked out talented players who don't want to stay because they know they have the talent to get top jobs elsewhere or limited players who hang around because they don't get headhunted.

Agree with everyone except Paps. I think his disposal is actually decent. I also think his main limitation is that he is abysmal when it comes to contested situations and I think that will be his weakness over his career. He just doesn't have the size or confidence in his body to hold his own.

 

[Football Pope]

Our young talent (which makes up most our team) is so far behind other rebuilding teams or teams coming out of a rebuild it isn't funny. We seriously need to lift in recruitment & Drafting. I honestly cant see us even coming close to competing for premierships with the current core squad within the next 5 years

Dunno......The same was said of the Baby Bombers 93

 

[Balony_pony16]

Dunno......The same was said of the Baby Bombers 93

they use to compare the young Doggies, port and lions with each other not that long a go too... I think we are more like the young blues (pick any season since 2000's) but without the spud pick 1's

 

[Leuy LongerCombo]

Good thread Jason pm, really puts our list in prospective.

Adding the Saint to the OP might be a good idea too, as they fall into the same time frame with rebuilding. For a quick list Ross, Dunstan, Acre, Lonie, Billing, Newnes, Longer, Goddard, Bruce, McCartin, Gresham and Freeman (no doubt missed someone)

Comparing the lists
The Compromised drafts have really hit us hard, compounded with Go Home Draftees. At this stage that list lacks both top-end talent and drops off the quickiest.

The Bulldogs through a little luck, having Libba/Wallis in the first compromised draft navigated that period reasonably well, add in some great drafting with Hunter, Dahlhaus, JJ and Adams, nailing their top picks, it's easy to see why their list is where it is.

Gold Coast / GWS heavy concessions.

Melbourne have been given access to a lot of early picks, could also add the failed selections of Cook and Toumpass. Some smart trading/drafting of late has the list headed in the right direction, finally.

Saints lists has a couple of nice pieces and rounds out pretty well. Missed the compromised drafts so build seems to be some what fast tracked compared to us.

Looking Forward
We should be able to add some top end talent in the next few drafts, hopefully can nail those picks. The Academy should be able to provide us with a decent source of talent, great depth worse case scenario. We need talent in nearly ever area, it's could be as simple as us selecting the best talent available.

 

[Gadzorks]

Simon black himself says be was never first tier - he just wanted it. I'd rather have kids that want to prove something than royalty such as karnesis and aish _ entitled scum.

Matheison's interview was classic- going later in the draft didn't bother me. Then 3 minutes later- I'm gonna show them i should have been a higher pick. A point to prove.
Zorko was snubbed for years and has fantastic drive.
Leuy was told he would never make it cause too small.
Martin was written of as a never quite dominating or being one of the best.
Schache Is building a history with his father.

These are the leaders who will show the test of the young brigade how to make it happen.

I honestly believe that the difference at elite level is how much hunger they have, and that hunger can turn teams around and take them to the top.

I'm still a believer in this current crew, even if i have to hide during game time sometimes to delay my heart attack.

We are definitely better than this time last year. As i said in a previous post, we have shown run and gun capability and now shown contested ability. Success is just doing both in the same game.

Go the lions.

 

[lionsbest]

what do you think our strategy should be over the next few years re drafting, free agency and trading for mids and key position stocks?
should we be sticking to the draft or go down the free agency trading route?
IMO drafting for mids and a bit of mature talent for key position.

.
Simply answer a mix of trade ,free agency and draft depending on talent available.Providing the players available meet our criteria.Regards free agency ,again players must have the right prerequisites. All decisions should be based upon skill ,speed and need.I personally would never trade 1st round and 2nd picks unless it is a super week draft or it is a trade for a AAA talent.Point -pick 17 for ryan bastinac was a really bad call in my book based upon his recent form at north melbourne.Probably latter picks sure.correct me if i am wrong ,his form was not great and was not getting too many games in the seniors.i stand corrected if wrong.i would have drafted one of the following @17 Riley Bonner ,if is foot was ok or harley balic.big fan of Riley i hope he makes it.

 

[lionsbest]

Simon black himself says be was never first tier - he just wanted it. I'd rather have kids that want to prove something than royalty such as karnesis and aish _ entitled scum.

Matheison's interview was classic- going later in the draft didn't bother me. Then 3 minutes later- I'm gonna show them i should have been a higher pick. A point to prove.
Zorko was snubbed for years and has fantastic drive.
Leuy was told he would never make it cause too small.
Martin was written of as a never quite dominating or being one of the best.
Schache Is building a history with his father.

These are the leaders who will show the test of the young brigade how to make it happen.

I honestly believe that the difference at elite level is how much hunger they have, and that hunger can turn teams around and take them to the top.

I'm still a believer in this current crew, even if i have to hide during game time sometimes to delay my heart attack.

We are definitely better than this time last year. As i said in a previous post, we have shown run and gun capability and now shown contested ability. Success is just doing both in the same game.

Go the lions.

Love it!!!! Well said

 

[Jivlain]

.
Simply answer a mix of trade ,free agency and draft depending on talent available.Providing the players available meet our criteria.Regards free agency ,again players must have the right prerequisites. All decisions should be based upon skill ,speed and need.I personally would never trade 1st round and 2nd picks unless it is a super week draft or it is a trade for a AAA talent.Point -pick 17 for ryan bastinac was a really bad call in my book based upon his recent form at north melbourne.Probably latter picks sure.correct me if i am wrong ,his form was not great and was not getting too many games in the seniors.i stand corrected if wrong.i would have drafted one of the following @17 Riley Bonner ,if is foot was ok or harley balic.big fan of Riley i hope he makes it.

That would not have been an option as pick #17, had we not traded it, would have disappeared matching Hipwood. 26 would have gone matching Keays, so in that future we're effectively trading Bastinac and the future third we actually got for, probably, Corey Wagner (plus, in this version of events, we may not necessarily get Mathieson). I don't particularly like this version of events.

Due to the way the academy bidding system works it really comes down to which player could we have traded for 17. A KPD, perhaps, but at that stage we had Clarke.

 

[royboys4eva]

I am confident that Darcy Gardiner is going to be a very good player for the Lions in the years to come. It gets mentioned that young forwards take anywhere up to 4 years to develop unless their elite. Well young defenders wouldn't be much different. Holding down a key defensive role while your still building your body up and playing against seasoned opponents can't be easy. I think Gardiner has held his own os most occasions and we all love his aggression.

Cutler strikes me as one of those modern day footballers that recruiters drool over. Great athlete who has speed and but also has height. Unfortunately being more of an athlete than a footballer means his disposal needs major work (it has improved this year ) and his decision making isn't great. We are all hoping after 50-80 games Cutler will become our attacking weapon of the half back line. He still has some work to do but thats what you get when you recruit this type of player. Johannisen at the Dogs showed glimpses in his first couple seasons but is only now starting to fulfil his potential.

McStay has down some exciting things up forward but for me he is defender first. He strikes me more of as an intercept mark or 3rd up in a contest. He struggles with one on one contests. He has decent pace so maybe he would be more a half back flanker who can switch forward if needed. My biggest grip with him was when he played forward was he made little to no effort in chasing his opponent. Obviously he can't get away with that playing down back. Gifted footballer who needs the odd kick up the back side when he becomes lazy.

Lewy Taylor is the best of the lot. Super little player. Reads the play which not many in our side can do. Has great speed and agility.

Harris Andrews and Schache look like being genuine stars if we continue to develop them as footballers. Hopefully we don't over burden them with expectations. Harris needs to do some work in the gym in coming years to help him take on the monster forwards.

So in summary i think Taylor Andrews Schache and Gardiner should all be very good players for our club in the years to come. McStay and Cutler have big upsides but will take more work.

 

[M Malice]

Simon black himself says be was never first tier - he just wanted it. I'd rather have kids that want to prove something than royalty such as karnesis and aish _ entitled scum.

Matheison's interview was classic- going later in the draft didn't bother me. Then 3 minutes later- I'm gonna show them i should have been a higher pick. A point to prove.
Zorko was snubbed for years and has fantastic drive.
Leuy was told he would never make it cause too small.
Martin was written of as a never quite dominating or being one of the best.
Schache Is building a history with his father.

These are the leaders who will show the test of the young brigade how to make it happen.

I honestly believe that the difference at elite level is how much hunger they have, and that hunger can turn teams around and take them to the top.

I'm still a believer in this current crew, even if i have to hide during game time sometimes to delay my heart attack.

We are definitely better than this time last year. As i said in a previous post, we have shown run and gun capability and now shown contested ability. Success is just doing both in the same game.

Go the lions.

love that post especially the bolded. there have been plenty of talented individuals who have had the talent but have lacked the desire/determination/vision to succeed. you only have to look at our own recent history to see wasted talent eg. rhan hooper, jason roe, todd banfield, patrick karnezis.

you often hear people say gee he is blessed with super talent but if you dig a bit deeper you find out yes but he also wanted it the most and put in the most effort on the training track eg. simon black, jonathan brown, michael voss, nigel lappin etc.....hell, most of our premiership teams players.

if you have that hunger and then mix it with confidence in yourself, team mates, coaching staff (game plan) you would be amazed what you can achieve IMO.

 

[dlanod]

That would not have been an option as pick #17, had we not traded it, would have disappeared matching Hipwood. 26 would have gone matching Keays, so in that future we're effectively trading Bastinac and the future third we actually got for, probably, Corey Wagner (plus, in this version of events, we may not necessarily get Mathieson). I don't particularly like this version of events.

Due to the way the academy bidding system works it really comes down to which player could we have traded for 17. A KPD, perhaps, but at that stage we had Clarke.

Great explanation on how our picks, our trading, and the academy bidding tied together.

 

[Gadzorks]

love that post especially the bolded. there have been plenty of talented individuals who have had the talent but have lacked the desire/determination/vision to succeed. you only have to look at our own recent history to see wasted talent eg. rhan hooper, jason roe, todd banfield, patrick karnezis.

you often hear people say gee he is blessed with super talent but if you dig a bit deeper you find out yes but he also wanted it the most and put in the most effort on the training track eg. simon black, jonathan brown, michael voss, nigel lappin etc.....hell, most of our premiership teams players.

if you have that hunger and then mix it with confidence in yourself, team mates, coaching staff (game plan) you would be amazed what you can achieve IMO.

Loved rhan hopper. Magnificent runner that was a joy watch when he was on

 

[Kevvo]

I am confident that Darcy Gardiner is going to be a very good player for the Lions in the years to come. It gets mentioned that young forwards take anywhere up to 4 years to develop unless their elite. Well young defenders wouldn't be much different. Holding down a key defensive role while your still building your body up and playing against seasoned opponents can't be easy. I think Gardiner has held his own os most occasions and we all love his aggression.

Cutler strikes me as one of those modern day footballers that recruiters drool over. Great athlete who has speed and but also has height. Unfortunately being more of an athlete than a footballer means his disposal needs major work (it has improved this year ) and his decision making isn't great. We are all hoping after 50-80 games Cutler will become our attacking weapon of the half back line. He still has some work to do but thats what you get when you recruit this type of player. Johannisen at the Dogs showed glimpses in his first couple seasons but is only now starting to fulfil his potential.

McStay has down some exciting things up forward but for me he is defender first. He strikes me more of as an intercept mark or 3rd up in a contest. He struggles with one on one contests. He has decent pace so maybe he would be more a half back flanker who can switch forward if needed. My biggest grip with him was when he played forward was he made little to no effort in chasing his opponent. Obviously he can't get away with that playing down back. Gifted footballer who needs the odd kick up the back side when he becomes lazy.

Lewy Taylor is the best of the lot. Super little player. Reads the play which not many in our side can do. Has great speed and agility.

Harris Andrews and Schache look like being genuine stars if we continue to develop them as footballers. Hopefully we don't over burden them with expectations. Harris needs to do some work in the gym in coming years to help him take on the monster forwards.

So in summary i think Taylor Andrews Schache and Gardiner should all be very good players for our club in the years to come. McStay and Cutler have big upsides but will take more work.

Great summary IMO.

I think that if Gardiner was 3 centimetres taller there'd be wider excitement about him. At the moment he's in that awkward spot where he doesn't seem quite tall enough to handle the really tall forwards, but has too many KPD attributes to shape into a running defender. I'm definitely guilty of thinking that way sometimes. Ignoring his height though, he usually does an effective job of limiting whoever he's matched up on, and I reckon he's a better user of the ball than he gets credit for. Sometimes it's easy to assume that players have to meet a template of size and particular attributes to be successful. In reality, it probably runs the other way round. Good teams play in a way that makes the most of the their good players. The shift in our style over late 2015 and early 2016 makes me think we've figured that out.

Anyway, long story short, I'm also confident that Gardiner will be a really good, long-term player for us.

 

[lionsbest]

That would not have been an option as pick #17, had we not traded it, would have disappeared matching Hipwood. 26 would have gone matching Keays, so in that future we're effectively trading Bastinac and the future third we actually got for, probably, Corey Wagner (plus, in this version of events, we may not necessarily get Mathieson). I don't particularly like this version of events.

Due to the way the academy bidding system works it really comes down to which player could we have traded for 17. A KPD, perhaps, but at that stage we had Clarke.

So i understand the points system. If player a costs 1000 points and pick 17 equals say 1300 points and picks 34 and 35 equal together 1200 points ,we cannot use picks 34 and 35. Is that correct.? Thanks for that ,so would you have trade for bastinac at all?

 

[Jivlain]

So i understand the points system. If player a costs 1000 points and pick 17 equals say 1300 points and picks 34 and 35 equal together 1200 points ,we cannot use picks 34 and 35. Is that correct.? Thanks for that ,so would you have trade for bastinac at all?

Matching points always come out of your next available pick(s) - so, yeah, if we need to match, say, pick 14 and have pick 17, we must use pick 17 in matching it. There is no option to use later picks whilst keeping 17 live.

Realistically, letting academy teams do that would be unbalanced in our favour, especially with the way the points are currently distributed.

 

[dlanod]

So i understand the points system. If player a costs 1000 points and pick 17 equals say 1300 points and picks 34 and 35 equal together 1200 points ,we cannot use picks 34 and 35. Is that correct.? Thanks for that ,so would you have trade for bastinac at all?

You have to use the pick(s) most immediately after the nomination. So if someone nominates pick 16 or higher, pick 17 is going to be used regardless of whether it is worth more points or not.

 

[chopperduck]

We just need to keep bringing in talented mids via the draft. I think with Bell, Bastinac, Bundy we have a nice little support group, who are just that bit younger than our top players in Zorko, Hanley, Beams, Rocky, Rich. Young mids can impact quicker, and that little support group will be good bigger bodies to help the next top talent group come through.

For the most part our forwards and backs are in place youth wise, just need time. If we draft some good mids/HB/winger types and can maybe suppliment that with grabbing mature players where needed i think we can still go pretty high. How high will probably depend on how long we keep Beams/Hanley/Rocky/Rich/Zokro and their form post 30. If 4 of the 5 can keep good form until 32-33 we should have some pretty nice depth.

I look at our team currently and i think Lester, Bewick, Harwood need to be pushed out and over taken by young talent in the depth chart. Realistically Rich, Rocky, Beams replace these 3 in the 22 for me, but we need them overtaken in overall depth. They aren't terrible players, but when players like them are this far up on your depth chart it shows how paper thin our depth is.

Keays and Matho i think will be Squiz like and really come on quick. Im really hoping we can double down with Allison and Rolls this year as well.

 

[royboys4eva]

Great summary IMO.

I think that if Gardiner was 3 centimetres taller there'd be wider excitement about him. At the moment he's in that awkward spot where he doesn't seem quite tall enough to handle the really tall forwards, but has too many KPD attributes to shape into a running defender. I'm definitely guilty of thinking that way sometimes. Ignoring his height though, he usually does an effective job of limiting whoever he's matched up on, and I reckon he's a better user of the ball than he gets credit for. Sometimes it's easy to assume that players have to meet a template of size and particular attributes to be successful. In reality, it probably runs the other way round. Good teams play in a way that makes the most of the their good players. The shift in our style over late 2015 and early 2016 makes me think we've figured that out.

Anyway, long story short, I'm also confident that Gardiner will be a really good, long-term player for us.

You make a good point Kevvo that we need to work to our players strengths and not mould them into something they are not. Perhaps thats what we are guilty with in the case of Mayes? Perhaps he isn't good enough? I look at McStay and think he has similar attributes to Harry Taylor but of course no where near as good in this stage of his career. Chris Scott is smart in the way he identified Taylor's strength as a intercept mark floating across packs. Rarely do you see Taylor battling one on one in a marking contest. McStay needs to be used this way.

Paparone was drafted as a hard running forward who could play wing if i am not mistaken? Leppa came in and decided to use him in the back half. He has played some good games down there but his poor decision making and disposal at times can be costly. I wonder has anyone ever asked Marco whether he would be more comfortable playing forward or if thats where he feels he will play his best footy. A hard running half forward to kick too from the half back/wing position would be huge for our club.

Probably a bit of the subject of this forum question but seems to me we have drafted guys and then decided to change their positions they are familiar with and this could be a reason why they have stagnated or not developed as we may have hoped.

 

[lionshine]

This one is from left field but I wonder how Dizzy Gardiner would go as a KPF? From what I have seen he is quite a nice kick for goal and he has a strong upper body build which he could use to out muscle opponents. He also has enough agility and leg speed to make an impact at ground level similar to someone like Jack Riewoldt imo. I know he looks like the ultimate defender and is really suited to that KPD role but I think the potential is there for him to one day be trailed as a KPF if the likes of Andrews, McStay, Hipwood, Skinner maybe even someone like Close moving back keep him out of the senior side in the backline. He could be the reverse Justin Leppitsch for us. Josh Bruce at the Saints was a defender with the Giants and the Saints decided to trial him forward and we all know how that one turned out.

 

[Kevvo]

You make a good point Kevvo that we need to work to our players strengths and not mould them into something they are not. Perhaps thats what we are guilty with in the case of Mayes? Perhaps he isn't good enough? I look at McStay and think he has similar attributes to Harry Taylor but of course no where near as good in this stage of his career. Chris Scott is smart in the way he identified Taylor's strength as a intercept mark floating across packs. Rarely do you see Taylor battling one on one in a marking contest. McStay needs to be used this way.

Paparone was drafted as a hard running forward who could play wing if i am not mistaken? Leppa came in and decided to use him in the back half. He has played some good games down there but his poor decision making and disposal at times can be costly. I wonder has anyone ever asked Marco whether he would be more comfortable playing forward or if thats where he feels he will play his best footy. A hard running half forward to kick too from the half back/wing position would be huge for our club.

Probably a bit of the subject of this forum question but seems to me we have drafted guys and then decided to change their positions they are familiar with and this could be a reason why they have stagnated or not developed as we may have hoped.

These are interesting questions. Sorry for the essay in response.

At some point Mayes gave an interview where he said that he had put his hand up to move to the HBF figuring we needed some more incisive ball use. So far, it hasn't worked out all that well. We assume that Leppa pushed him out of position, but I wonder if that's right. Right now, the players Mayes would be competing with up front are probably Zorko, Christensen, Bell and Taylor. It's arguably our strongest position on the field. The first three of those are much better contested players than Mayes is, and Taylor has probably gone past where he was in his first year as a conduit into the F50.

Maybe there just wasn't a spot for him forward, and so he was hoping to find a spot in a position of relative weakness. That might explain his shot confidence more fully than just sulking about playing out of position (not paraphrasing you here...just picking up general forum sentiment). I also doubt that our coaches are so self-defeating that they'd continue to force a player out of position if they either saw a stronger spot for them elsewhere or didn't see signs of potential.

On Paparone, I actually think he looks pretty good more often than not in his current role. Certainly we notice his absence, and I think his ball use isn't as bad as gets made out. He won't be a great player until he improves his contested game, but I reckon that would be equally problematic up forward.

It's more the case that I think we're now set on playing fast, incisive football. It makes a lot of sense because of our relatively poor contested game, and our abundance of fast, nimble types. We spent the last draft bringing in KPPs who will take time, but I think the next few drafts will be telling. If I were guessing, I'd say we'll chase 'natural footballer' types who could fit on the HBF or wing.

 

[carnthemlions]

Great summary IMO.

I think that if Gardiner was 3 centimetres taller there'd be wider excitement about him. At the moment he's in that awkward spot where he doesn't seem quite tall enough to handle the really tall forwards, but has too many KPD attributes to shape into a running defender. I'm definitely guilty of thinking that way sometimes. Ignoring his height though, he usually does an effective job of limiting whoever he's matched up on, and I reckon he's a better user of the ball than he gets credit for. Sometimes it's easy to assume that players have to meet a template of size and particular attributes to be successful. In reality, it probably runs the other way round. Good teams play in a way that makes the most of the their good players. The shift in our style over late 2015 and early 2016 makes me think we've figured that out.

Anyway, long story short, I'm also confident that Gardiner will be a really good, long-term player for us.

I see Gardiner fitting into the Patfull/Dale Morris/Ben Stratton mould going forward. Won't ever play on taller KPFs, can shut down the opposition's most dangerous smaller (under 195cm) player.