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hyperthetical

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stefoid

stefoid

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Mar 8, 2002
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Do you guys think you would 'top up' for a premiership tilt next year?

Heres a scenario. Carlton has picks #1 and #2. Pies have pick #3 or #4. Dogs have pick #9 or #10

Carlton takes the two best midfielders and reserves their 2nd rounder for a key defender.

You guys need quick, goal kicking silk in the middle. In this scenario the 3rd best midfielder is NQR (a long term project, or has question marks, or is the wrong type). The next best player in the draft is a key forward with a decent pedigree.

Think you would trade down your #3 pick for a macmahon or eagleton and pick #9 or #10, for a quick fix?

Or would you just 'bank' the tall forward or the 3rd best midfiedler, and soldier on.
 
If we had pick 3 or 4 I'd offer it to St. Kilda for Dal Santo and maybe Brisbane for Power but I'm less certain about that. We'll end up with closer to 7 again and that is a decent offer for Power, even if we have to top it up with a player or later pick.

In other words, I would top up and try to win next years flag while we have Buckley and Burns in the midfield, Rocca up forward and a good solid backline. If Buckley breaks down when he comes back and Rocca doesn't look like he'll make a full recovery I'd change my mind and draft young mid's and trade players to get better draft picks.

Add a fit Buckley, Rocca, Richards (is there such a thing?) and Johnson to Monday's side and it would make a huge difference. Throw in Power and 1 more quick midfielder with a lower profile (Egan, yakka, recruit) and we would be contenders. Solid defence, dangerous forward set up and decent midfield without a standout opponent means you have to have a crack while you can. This whole rebuilding scenario is unproven and hugely uncertain. The worst that can happen is that you fall to the same position a year later which makes it a steeper fall and you might spend 1 extra year low down accumulating another early pick.

Topping up has a far worse rep that deserved in a regulated player market. Essendon, Port and Brisbane topped up to the last 5 flags.
 
stefoid said:
Do you guys think you would 'top up' for a premiership tilt next year?

Heres a scenario. Carlton has picks #1 and #2. Pies have pick #3 or #4. Dogs have pick #9 or #10

Carlton takes the two best midfielders and reserves their 2nd rounder for a key defender.

You guys need quick, goal kicking silk in the middle. In this scenario the 3rd best midfielder is NQR (a long term project, or has question marks, or is the wrong type). The next best player in the draft is a key forward with a decent pedigree.

Think you would trade down your #3 pick for a macmahon or eagleton and pick #9 or #10, for a quick fix?

Or would you just 'bank' the tall forward or the 3rd best midfiedler, and soldier on.
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"Hyper"thetically, we should not be trading down again. Ever!

What our "brains trust" do and what we should do however, is historically proven to be very different.

You scenario assumes too many things. 1) we have to finish practically second last, 2) that the Filth want midfielders when they really need talls, 3) that we need "fast goal kicking silk" in the middle, when we really just need a decent midfielder period.

Too many variables which are iffy. But the one thing I will say is the we MUST NOT trade down our first round pick for second rung players. Chad Morrison might have been mildly servicable, but he will never win us footy games!!
 

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With pick 5 6 or 7 (we wont end up below Hawthorn Carlton or Essendon!!!) we'd be jumping all over a very very good midfielder, probably the third or fourth best available. We'll do the same with pick 21 22 or 23.

I don't think we'd go for the quick fix. Besides how in the hell could Eagleton be described as a fix for anything???

(ps Morrison was not recruited a quick fix. he was recruited as a stop gap to allow the next generation to come through). Trading down last year cost us nothing. We would have got Egan at 7 anyway, and we picked up Morrison for Nixon.
 
MarkT said:
If we had pick 3 or 4 I'd offer it to St. Kilda for Dal Santo and maybe Brisbane for Power but I'm less certain about that. We'll end up with closer to 7 again and that is a decent offer for Power, even if we have to top it up with a player or later pick.
.
Click to expand...

Dont get your hopes up, those teams would want no less than a top 3 pick or two in the top 15.
 
The only way you get dal santo or power for a single top 3 pick is if they wanted to jump ship for the cash, so you had the other club over a barrel. I presume thats the scenario you were looking at.

But in that case, wouldnt carlton come to the party with the first pick of the pre-season draft? they would match your cash...

Im afraid that this year, carlton will be the first under the tree, so you will have to shake long and hard to get anything worthwhile.

I wont defend eagleton, he is soft as shyte, but he is good at what he does. if you want a speedy receiver with a good long kick that runs hard to average 25 possessions, then you could have him. We have that in spades and I cant see a place for him in our midfield next year, as long as the likes of gilbee, ray and guido continue to develop.

I also mentioned macmahon who is super fast and improving with every game now he is settled into a role in the backline. Imagine a rhyce shaw that can reliably hit a target at full tilt, and also minded his opponent a bit.
 
FIGJAM said:
"Hyper"thetically, we should not be trading down again. Ever!

What our "brains trust" do and what we should do however, is historically proven to be very different.

You scenario assumes too many things. 1) we have to finish practically second last, 2) that the Filth want midfielders when they really need talls, 3) that we need "fast goal kicking silk" in the middle, when we really just need a decent midfielder period.

Too many variables which are iffy. But the one thing I will say is the we MUST NOT trade down our first round pick for second rung players. Chad Morrison might have been mildly servicable, but he will never win us footy games!!
Click to expand...

I thought my scenario was pretty spot on in terms of need. Carlton has a good forward line, an emerging backline that needs another key post, and an absolute rubbish midfield that if it didnt have stevens in would be the joke of the competition. camporeale and kouta will be gawn very soon.

as for you guys, yeah well, a star midfielder everybody needs, but who do you need more: a jordie macmahon or a brock mclean? lets assume a judd or cooney isnt available this year after carlton has used its picks.
 
We want a Dal Santo/Power, or an unknown kid with infinite potential. At 5, 6 or 7 there will be plenty of talented players worth drafting. We dont want Footscrays rejects.
 
well that answers my question then. youd rather draft for the future rather than try to top up for a cup tilt. do you reckon malthouse, buckley and mcguire share your view?
 
I don't mind reading hypotheticals however this one is flawed. Firstly we won't finish that low, secondly the names offered up are distincly ordinary. What the Bulldogs need are some key position players. Scott Clayton always takes the best available talent with his picks which inveriably end up as midfielders or flankers. Taller players are taken with later picks and these players are the hardest to find. I like the Bulldogs lineup but it's just to short, you can't win the big games without the big blokes. I'd be posting on the Carlton board seeing what they want for Whitnall but if you want to put Cooney, Griffen or Gilbee on the table we can start the dialogue again.
 
my gut feeling is that you could have had gilbee 2 years ago if you had made an offer worth considering. Now the price has skyrocketed. Eade just loves his precise kicking. I think he would have 5 gilbees for his style of game, if he could.

Eagleton is no gun and never will be, but he is better than rhyce shaw and woewodin. just.

macmahon will be a player. Im not sure eade will want to trade him after resurecting his career, but if I am any judge, I rate him. Similar to gilbee last year in my opinion. just about to go places.

obviously cooney and griffen would be signed to 10 year contracts if it was legal.

yeah, I guess you guys wont finish that low. hard to say who will. the hawks arent going too badly, they just arent winning. have they got the heart to keep trying?

if it wasnt for calrton, I dont think any team would get a PP this year.

My prediction is

Carlton #1
Carlton #2
Hawthorn #3
Collingwood #4
Essendon #5
Richmond #6
Freo #7
Roos #8
Dogs #9
Sydney #10

Dogs are improving. richmond and roos on the slide. Freo and essendon going nowhere. Time running out for the pies, when your finals hopes die, so will your spirit, and your brains trust will look for the picks.
 
stefoid said:
my gut feeling is that you could have had gilbee 2 years ago if you had made an offer worth considering.
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The Bulldogs correctly decided he was a required player. We had a serious crack at him because he wanted to leave. The Dogs told him they wanted to keep him, and that was the end of that.
 

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stefoid said:
well that answers my question then. youd rather draft for the future rather than try to top up for a cup tilt. do you reckon malthouse, buckley and mcguire share your view?
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We didnt trade any picks away last year (except 7 for 10 but we got Egan anyway) so I'd have to say the answer is yes they do.
 
hotpie said:
The Bulldogs correctly decided he was a required player. We had a serious crack at him because he wanted to leave. The Dogs told him they wanted to keep him, and that was the end of that.
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theres 'required' and 'REQUIRED'. gilbee was 'required' at the dogs right up until the point where somebody offered enough for us to trade him. Nobody is going to say to a player:" well you can stick around since they arent offering enough, but at the right price your history sunshine."
 
stefoid said:
theres 'required' and 'REQUIRED'. gilbee was 'required' at the dogs right up until the point where somebody offered enough for us to trade him. Nobody is going to say to a player:" well you can stick around since they arent offering enough, but at the right price your history sunshine."
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You can argue semantics until the cows come home. The Dogs wanted to keep him so there was no point in haggling.
 
Eagleton is not as good as Rhyce Shaw, you need to watch more Collingwood games and you would see the difference. But back to my point about the Bulldogs goal to goal line imagine something like this

Fullback Harris
CHB Rawlings, Hargave as the third tall defender
CHF Whitnall, swap him for you 2nd round selection.
FF Grant, try to sqeeze one more year out of him.

Then swap Faulkner AND Eagleton for a Troy Chaplin (a serious player stuck behind Chad Cornes) and that goal line would vault the Doggies into the top 8. A guy like Travis Gaspar might also be a possibility. Your team needs sructure, without it you'll only ever be a pesky side.
 
I would like to see us go after gianciracusa, now that Gilbee has re-signed. Dal Santo is out of reach, and if power goes anywhere it will be to the bulldogs. Thinking about it, there could be a 3 way trade eventuate from that, unfortunately, the doggies dont really need more skillful midfielders.
 
gilbs: its not semantics. had you offered enough, eade would have traded him. its a case of collingwood flipping a 3rd rounder at us, eade going to the brains trust and saying 'this gilbee kid, is he worth a 3rd rounder?' they no, so eades public annoucement is 'hes required'. had you gone the extra yard, I am certian he would be in black and white right now.

shaw: as far as I can see, he gets a lot of ball, but his opponent gets a lot of ball and uses it better. trademark is a gather or receive at full pace, running like a madthing then bombing it to nobody in particular. Eagleton is not as fast but is 10 times a better kick, and smarter. shaw is just a bit dumb if you ask me.

faulkner. interesting. Id forgotten about him. has skill, pace and goes in hard, but is very inconsistant. just goes missing for long periods. think neon leon with a backbone or Picket jnr. I think he would be small 'r' required.
 

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It's an interesting idea.

We really need a decent midfielder. We have so many players that are similar. A Power or Del Santo, whilst not overly quick, would be a great acquisition because they have excellent disposal and are very creative.

I think our forwards are good, but only if a few things fall into place. We really need Richards to stand up in the ruck, which would allow Josh to go forward. Obviosuly, Rocca needs to come back ok.

I still think we need a really good athletic tall backman. The jury is still out on Tristen Walker. As we saw on Monday with Brad Miller, we have to have someone that can go to him. We can't just use Clement everytime a forward gets out of control.

I would also have a serious crack at Brogan from Port. Give them Lonie/Cole and a 2nd round.
 
I would love to see them go very , very hard for both Power and Dal Santo. Our first pick and Coley to the Saints. Second round and a player to Lions. We could trade with Bulldogs for Sam Power to hedge the bet with Luke Power.
Two quality, ready to go midfielders is worth the price.
 
neither team would willingly give up those players, so unless the player themself wants to jump ship for money, you have no hope.

if they DO want to jump ship for money, they go to carlton who has all the low picks to trade or wait for the preseason draft, and just as much cash.

i.e. unless you can shake both players out of both clubs, and split them with carlton, you have no hope.
 
stefoid said:
neither team would willingly give up those players, so unless the player themself wants to jump ship for money, you have no hope.

if they DO want to jump ship for money, they go to carlton who has all the low picks to trade or wait for the preseason draft, and just as much cash..
Click to expand...

You still need salary cap room. Neither Carlton nor Collingwood will get both Power and Dal Santo, so its not a total lost cause. Hawthorn wont chase them, they'll be after kpp's.
 

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