Society/Culture Imported White Trash

[Clay Davis]

It is by far the best proxy.

Do we have a shortage of bankers?

Answer yes or no.

I would say we have a shortage of useful workers such as doctors and engineers, who get paid far less than bankers. Yet, according to you, price indicates value or shortage. Are you sure you're not completely deluded?

 

[medusala]

LOL. A bunch of tradies using their union to get a generous pay packet is worse than the international banking elite creating a global recession that has cost millions and millions of livelihoods through their vile greed.

Give it a rest mate.

Have you read the Age link? The tenderers were forced to deal with the union. That is corrupt.

Yet somehow that greed is ok.

As is personal greed of people taking out massive mortgages and numerous credit cards.

The commercial banks cant make money without clients.

They cant sell if noon buys.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Oh, thank you. Those four sentences sum up exactly what I think.

Meds, it's fine for you to pretend that bankers don't run a kleptocracy and that the market is 'fair'. Upton Sinclair had a nice quip for it, while Thomas Jefferson warned of it.

Indeed. I have nothing against banks per se. Literally, one of my best mates works for one!

Banks can be a tremendous instrument for good. They help people achieve prosperity by providing funding for things like houses. They can help you through unexpected difficulties by providing overdrafts etc. They can make life easier by giving you credit cards for when you travel. At the most simple, they provide a safe place to store your money.

But what I STRENOUSLY object to is when banks indulge in ever more risky strategies to make money, huge percentages of which are then paid out as 'compensation' to the people who dreamed the strategies up.

Anyway, back on topic, given Australia has a vibrant banking sector, and no shortage of kids wanting to do Commerce at uni, there is absolutely no reason why Meds' mate should have been let into the country.

Yes, he would have paid tax if he got a job. But that job could - and will have been - adequately filled by an Australian paying the same tax.

Its not like the job disappeared because his mate didn't get in.

As I said, meds' Pommy mate getting a knockback shows the system worked well for once.

 

[medusala]

Do we have a shortage of bankers?

Answer yes or no.

In Sydney there are numerous roles that they struggle to fill locally.

Commercial banking probably not, investment banking probably.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Have you read the Age link? The tenderers were forced to deal with the union. That is corrupt.

Yet somehow that greed is ok.

I didn't say it was OK.

What I said was it is in no way comprable with millions of people losing their jobs in Britain and the US because a tiny overpaid elite of bankers got ultra greedy.

 

[GeorgeGrljusich]

Anyway, back on topic,

This isn't the topic. But I am enjoying you ripping him limb from limb so much that I couldn't care less.

 

[medusala]

Anyway, back on topic, given Australia has a vibrant banking sector, and no shortage of kids wanting to do Commerce at uni, there is absolutely no reason why Meds' mate should have been let into the country.

The tax take

Yes, he would have paid tax if he got a job. But that job could - and will have been - adequately filled by an Australian paying the same tax.

That is far from a certainty. Most of the sort of jobs a guy like him would fill are done by non Australians (or by Australians who are returning from OS).

Take the City for example. The best example of skilled migration you will probably find anywhere (though the Brits dont need to give away passports to get them in). Up to 40% of workers in the City are foreigners. The Brits with a far bigger population and historically large financial services sector cant fill the jobs locally.

As I said, meds' Pommy mate getting a knockback shows the system worked well for once.

I simply dont understand how anyone can argue that Australia letting in a hairdresser rather than a banker on $200k is demonstrating the workings of a good sytem.

 

[Clay Davis]

In Sydney there are numerous roles that they struggle to fill locally.

Commercial banking probably not, investment banking probably.

Really? I know hundreds of people who could solve their ridiculously simple differential equations but don't because it is a soulless life of utter uselessness that no amount of money could satisfy. Sure, the lonely vampire nerds who count their dollars are attracted to it, but for every one of them there are two geophysicists who use their amazing mathematical skills to find new energy deposits that go towards the long term good of mankind while getting paid a quarter the price of some bloke who bets on the Mexican peso.

And yet, you dispute that bankers are overpaid, and don't run a scam ripping off the general public/taxpayers. Laughable.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

I entirely agree with SLF on one point, there is no point letting in Poms (or anyone else ex small number of real refugees) or anyone else if it does not benefit Australia. This means that they have to earn a decent amount of money ie above the median wage (and according to some estimates well above).

For mine, the actual wage has nothing to do with it. Its about filling a role. If we have enough bankers in Oz all earing zillions, we don't need to import any because that revenue will still be generated anyway.

We should be admitting people who want to innovate and set up entirely new industries etc.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

In Sydney there are numerous roles that they struggle to fill locally.

Commercial banking probably not, investment banking probably.

Yeah, a British investment banker. Just what we need.

That's been such a success of late.

 

[medusala]

I didn't say it was OK.

What I said was it is in no way comprable with millions of people losing their jobs in Britain and the US because a tiny overpaid elite of bankers got ultra greedy.

Sure its comparable. The unions in the UK decimated a number of industries, ship building and the automotive industries come to mind.

In a couple of years the City will be back to where it was whilst ship building has gone forever.

There is simply a taste of what is to come out of Scotland. The screaming will be unbearable.

 

[Clay Davis]

In a couple of years the City will be back to where it was

Helps when the government back stops you to the tune of billions.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

I simply dont understand how anyone can argue that Australia letting in a hairdresser rather than a banker on $200k is demonstrating the workings of a good sytem.

Because there is no need for bankers. We evidently have enough or your beloved market would have SPOKEN and its invisible hand acted and the shortage felt and thus been reflected in the points system.

As regards hairdressers, well, say Doreen from Glasgow comes over. She gets in on the back the points scheme. Sets up her own salon. She'll be paying a wide variety of taxes, she'll inevitably be employing people, she'll be creating jobs for suppliers etc.

As opposed to some flog who magics numbers around on a screen.

You mention the holy tax take your banker mate would provide.

You know, in my experience, those banker types tend to work very hard at minimising the tax they pay, often to the point where they pay proportionally far less than honest Doreen the ahirdresser.

 

[medusala]

And yet, you dispute that bankers are overpaid, and don't run a scam ripping off the general public/taxpayers. Laughable.

Why would I argue that?

There is well functioning market for labour in the investment banking area (even given recent govt efforts).

 

[Clay Davis]

You know, in my experience, those banker types tend to work very hard at minimising the tax they pay, often to the point where they pay proportionally far less than honest Doreen the ahirdresser.

Mmm, they'd probably minimise it to zero. Much rather have the Northern bird. Probably puts out more too.

 

[Play by Numbers]

It is by far the best proxy.

In you opinion, not in reality.

Wage inflation exists in many sectors.

There are also many other criteria that one could attempt to use to judge comparative skill, but how can any be considered comprehensive.

Senior Engineer on a mine site, responsible for hundreds of lives and the effective functioning of a mine site which may lead to the generation of hundreds of millions in revenue or an ineffective middle management type, on a similar salary but keeping his job for heck knows what reason.

Comparable skill because they get paid a similar amount?

And yes I have personal examples, sadly.

All I can say is that I have met far more incompetents in middle and senior management, where they have simply lasted in the company till they have been promoted (or maneuvered their way there), than in the skilled areas I have worked or have personal experience with.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

Sure its comparable. The unions in the UK decimated a number of industries, ship building and the automotive industries come to mind.

In a couple of years the City will be back to where it was whilst ship building has gone forever.

There is simply a taste of what is to come out of Scotland. The screaming will be unbearable.

Heaven help us if the City is back where it was. Can we bail out failed banks twice?

 

[medusala]

Helps when the government back stops you to the tune of billions.

And fool on the govt for doing so.

Yet this misses two obvious points

1) The City is dominated by non Brit firms (and thus not supported by UK taxpayers)

2) The banks that got in to trouble did not do so because of City employees

HBOS was stuffed due to commercial lending
B&B and Abbey and Northern Rock due to property lending
RBS due to the maniacs who were mainly at head office

Bankers yes. The City? No (arguable re RBS)

Not the same thing.

 

[Clay Davis]

All I can say is that I have met far more incompetents in middle and senior management, where they have simply lasted in the company till they have been promoted (or maneuvered their way there), than in the skilled areas I have worked or have personal experience with.

Totally. I'll never forget one job I had where this young (my age) Polish geologist asked in a meeting "why do we have so many ****ing managers here?". I wanted to walk across the room and high-five him, but it wouldn't have gone down well.

I've read a few things lately about the ascent and dominance of the managerial class. Completely about keeping themselves in their comfortable and useless positions.

 

[medusala]

Heaven help us if the City is back where it was. Can we bail out failed banks twice?

As prev post.

The City isnt dominated by UK banks. Only the Brit banks are an issue for Britain.

And as above it wasnt the City by and large that stuffed things up.

It is convenient for The Guardian to keep saying it but that doesnt make it true.

 

[Clay Davis]

And fool on the govt for doing so.

Yet this misses two obvious points

1) The City is dominated by non Brit firms (and thus not supported by UK taxpayers)

2) The banks that got in to trouble did not do so because of City employees

HBOS was stuffed due to commercial lending
B&B and Abbey and Northern Rock due to property lending
RBS due to the maniacs who were mainly at head office

Bankers yes. The City? No (arguable re RBS)

Not the same thing.

Oh come on. Sif the banks in the City aren't being fed at the trough by Bernanke. As SLF said, this thing is international.

 

[medusala]

Oh come on. Sif the banks in the City aren't being fed at the trough by Bernanke. As SLF said, this thing is international.

I agree re that, however that is different to the bail out re the Brit banks that was referred to.

I have repeatedly said on here I have no issues with letting banks go broke and I was also clear on saying that Rudd guaranteeing the debts of Macquarie was madness.

Regardless of who was at fault I still cant see why a hairdresser or baker is better for Australia than someone earning multiples of the average wage.

 

[SweetLeftFoot]

And fool on the govt for doing so.

Yet this misses two obvious points

1) The City is dominated by non Brit firms (and thus not supported by UK taxpayers)

2) The banks that got in to trouble did not do so because of City employees

HBOS was stuffed due to commercial lending
B&B and Abbey and Northern Rock due to property lending
RBS due to the maniacs who were mainly at head office

Bankers yes. The City? No (arguable re RBS)

Not the same thing.

I like when you start doing this obfuscating and suddenly pretending SOME bits are not this and that.

 

[Play by Numbers]

Totally. I'll never forget one job I had where this young (my age) Polish geologist asked in a meeting "why do we have so many ****ing managers here?". I wanted to walk across the room and high-five him, but it wouldn't have gone down well.

I've read a few things lately about the ascent and dominance of the managerial class. Completely about keeping themselves in their comfortable and useless positions.

It is shocking.

My grandfather who is a fairly quiet and genial man, was head engineer for Air New Zealand and an astute business man (owned a series of motels/hotel and a super market on the Gold Coast).

Despite how usually pleasant he is, has some very strong opinions on the running of the commercial aviation industry in Australia and New Zealand.

As much as the term empty suit is a cliche, it seems there are certain industries in Australia where they thrive.

 

[Clay Davis]

To make a point of it, meds, I direct you to this article by AEP.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/...er-into-depression-as-Wall-Street-revels.html

The labour force contracted by 661,000. This did not show up in the headline jobless rate because so many Americans dropped out of the system. The broad U6 category of unemployment rose to 17.3pc. That is the one that matters.

Wall Street rallied. Bulls hope that weak jobs data will postpone monetary tightening: a silver lining in every catastrophe, or perhaps a further exhibit of market infantilism.

AEP ain't no ant-market socialist. But this article illustrates a key point. The 'market' is so divorced from economic reality (due to the banks cozy relationship with govt institutions around the world) that it can rally while major economies struggle even further.

We certainly don't need anymore bankers. They are useless for the general well-being of the populace.