Business & Finance Indigenous employment

[mockingbeat]

Is it racist to want aboriginals to increase their life expectancy to the national average?

Gifting them jobs would help that?

 

[SS_Fury]

Is it racist to want aboriginals to increase their life expectancy to the national average?

nope not racist to want it at all...but how does this relate?

 

[Underdog]

The Australian Employment Covenant (AEC) is an initiative aimed at securing 50,000 sustainable jobs for Indigenous Australians. To find available jobs, please click here.

Backed by a three-way commitment between Australian Employers, the Australian Government and Indigenous people, this landmark initiative seeks to break the vicious cycle of unemployment and poverty amongst Indigenous Australians by adopting a “learn or earn policy” for all those who have the capacity to work.

This policy will see 50,000 Indigenous Australians receive training tailored to meet employers' specifications, creating clear and encouraging outcomes for Indigenous training programs. In addition, 50,000 workplace mentors will provide much needed support to each Indigenous Australian as they continually develop in their new role.

The AEC represents a major commitment to the future of Indigenous Australians by providing those prepared to work with a clear pathway to employment and the ability to reach their full potential.

When you consider that many indigenous people don't even have a birth certificate let alone an education or access to reasonable services/facilities - I don't see how this could possibly be seen as a bad thing?

This is about breaking the cycle and creating a new wave of role models who can provide an example to their friends and family.

I think you'll find that the sheer majority of indigenous people want to work but they don't have the education or the same access to facilities as most Australians. This is a generalisation, but policies are formed on such.

I think some people should hire Samson and Delilah then visit places like Halls Creek and Fitzroy Crossing or a remote community then tell me that everything is fair.

How are people with no money, no assets, terrible living conditions, no job market or prospects supposed to break the cycle?

 

[P.A.F.C]

nope not racist to want it at all...but how does this relate?

The purpose of these initiatives is to get Indigenous Australian's back to the national average.

Read about what these scheme do specifically. This link explains Forrest's scheme well;
http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2008/s2323940.htm

I asked Mr Forrest this afternoon to explain the concept of the covenant.

ANDREW FORREST: You have a group of Aboriginal people who are currently out of work. They want one thing like you and I do, and that is to get into well-paid meaningful jobs. But they have a distrust and a very fair distrust of the training and education system which as Warren Mundine said, when a 10-year-old boy said to him, "What the bloody hell is the use of all this education, there's nothing for me at the end of it?"

So, taking that distrust, we can convert that energy into real hope and we do it like this.

One, you start with a group of Aboriginal people and you promise them on this case, we covenant with them, that if they undertake the industry-specific training, short three to four month courses, which are exactly relevant to the jobs which they want, and they pass those courses, that's their part of the bargain - that's the Aboriginal part of this covenant. They have to pass those courses and in my experience, the pass rate over their two major programs which are done, is over 90 per cent.

If things aren't equal, which they aren't, something has to be done. Giving 'them'(OMGZ I'M A HORRIBLE PERSON CAUSE I CBF SAYING INDIGENOUS AUSTRALIANS 60 TIMES) training is hardly paramount to some of the suggestions in this thread. It's a good scheme.

If indigenous health is horrible, is it fair to put extra funding into health in these areas? Do you get angry when this happens and question why they get free/cheap healthcare? Probably not. It's the same thing. Indigenous unemployment is ridiculously high and giving them free/cheap training and education, from the private sector(Can bloody well do what they like), is the same thing.

 

[BigBadCam]

OMG, here we go again. BB, you are so full of it. For my opinion on all your garbage, why don't you read back through some of the previous threads. You might learn something.

 

[bunsen burner]

Ok BB, I think we are talking around the same issue so I'll try and simplify. Not sure where you got the means tests stuff from....I just want to "compare apples with apples"

3 people, A, B, and C.

A and B are both aboriginal.
A and C live in an isolated community and suffer from poor education, housing, and work prospects. Neither has a working parent, nor does either have access to books, or "educated" elders.

B lives in a predominantly white, suburban middle-class environment, attended a "good" school, and both parents are university educated.

Can you explain why B should be eligible for assistance/etc that C is not?
Can you explain why A should be eligible for assistance/etc that C is not?

I've explain it to you. Not my fault if you can't work it out.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Seeing as BB is unable to answer a seemingly basic question (I wonder why?), Perhaps we can use some of the other posters thoughts.

1. No Education. Absolutely 100% behind this. Anyone without a college-school level education (or equivalent) can access "Free" education. Those that cannot due to physical location - either fund additional (any) teachers for the area, fund communication infrastructure (ie satellite internet), or fund public transport so that they can attend school.

2. Homeless. Of course funding should be provided for shelter, etc. Whether that is through large "homeless shelters", or in the form of 'grants', 'public commission housing', etc is a seperate issue.

3. Healthcare. Isn't Medicare set up to ensure adequate healthcare is available? Again, if it's a matter of location, either provide transport, or provide localised care.

4. Workskills Training. Again, something available to everyone, if location is the issue provide transport, or localised (industry specific and company run is now very common) training.

I see absolutely ZERO reason why race should be used according to anything anyone has said in this thread. Whether it's social, environmental, economic, or locality, the circumstances affect all, rather than all aborignals. It seems there are two (massive) issues, neither of which has really been discussed.

1. The underlying belief by those in recruitment that aboriginals are a lazy, disinterested, untrustworthy source of employees.

2. The underlying belief of aboriginals that education is worthless, and they are disadvantaged in all areas of life based on their race.

Personally I don't believe either is true of the wider sense, however there would be many people who do hold that view. How to fix that? I'm sure there are ways and means of appealing a recruitment decision, the same as there are ways of appealing educational placements, etc. If for some reason, there isn't then it needs to be included.

If everybody is given a fair go, and there is no differention based on race - then why is there even an issue?

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

The important thing is that the treatment of aboriginals should be to ensure they aren't disadvantaged.....not to ensure they have advantages over the rest of society.

 

[bunsen burner]

Seeing as BB is unable to answer a seemingly basic question (I wonder why?),

I've answered it. You haven't answered mine.

How are you going to administer and pay for this?

 

[nylexbandit]

The important thing is that the treatment of aboriginals should be to ensure they aren't disadvantaged.....not to ensure they have advantages over the rest of society.

Ensuring they aren't disadvantaged is the whole point of the assistance they get! The point is to provide this assistance to get them to the point where they won't need it anymore. It's not a 'let's ensure indigenous australians are better off than everyone else' thing.

And your argument about other disadvantaged non indigenous people seems like a deliberate distraction. They still get assistance themselves, perhaps a little less, but it's not like the government is saying 'Hey Mr aboriginal lawyer have some assistance, but you can get stuffed homeless white guy'.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

actually nylex, in many respects it is. That's the problem.

 

[nylexbandit]

I guess this is one of those things where it's hard to change someone's opinion either way.

 

[Caesar]

It seems there are two (massive) issues, neither of which has really been discussed.

1. The underlying belief by those in recruitment that aboriginals are a lazy, disinterested, untrustworthy source of employees.

2. The underlying belief of aboriginals that education is worthless, and they are disadvantaged in all areas of life based on their race.

The first issue is fairly well documented in employment studies (perhaps not so strongly worded but definitely a distinct disadvantage can be seen).

The latter is a very contentious claim, and furthermore a racist one by aligning the belief with the group. Are you inferring a causal relationship between aboriginality and such beliefs? Do you ascribe it to the majority?

Furthermore, don't people of other disenfranchised demographics have similar complaints? Doesn't that suggest that this issue is more a socioeconomic than racial one, and as such shouldn't be juxtaposed with issue (1)?

 

[Caesar]

How to fix that? I'm sure there are ways and means of appealing a recruitment decision, the same as there are ways of appealing educational placements, etc. If for some reason, there isn't then it needs to be included.

It's not always that simple. Discrimination on employment is often very, very hard to prove. On an individual level there are a hundred nuaced reasons that can be cited for choosing one similarly qualified candidate over another. It's often when you look at overall trends that you identify problems. Take the male/female income disparity for example - it continues to be a problem despite the ostensible elimination of sex discrimination in most industries.

Appropriate scrutiny of employment decisions is important in all circumstances, not just race. But combating institutionalised disadvantage is tricker than that.

 

[Simon_Nesbit]

Sorry caeser, I don't believe it (aboriginal perceptions), just trying to summarize what's been said). It seems that it is the argument behind "giving" jobs/money/etc to the aboriginals, yet to me (and you) seems completely racist.

Agree it could be hard to prove - but if they are genuinely not the best candidate, then why should they get the job? If they are, then the employer that overlooks them loses out, not only by not having them as an employee, but also whatever sanctions are enforced afterwards.

 

[Schmucta]

It's over champ. You're a racist. You have clearly said it is the Aborigines' own fault that they lag behind in areas of education and health. Not sure why you're trying to deny it because clearly you are comfortable with it. Racist.

I've explain it to you. Not my fault if you can't work it out.

I've answered it. You haven't answered mine.

How are you going to administer and pay for this?

You seem to balk at answering simple questions when it is clear the only answers you could provide based on your argument show you to be racist.

 

[bunsen burner]

BB you can cry racism all you like, but the irony is you want 'x' amount of staff in employment based on skin colour....ridiculous

Nope

 

[bunsen burner]

You seem to balk at answering simple questions when it is clear the only answers you could provide based on your argument show you to be racist.

I've answered the question. Nisbet however hasn't answered mine.

 

[Schmucta]

I've answered the question. Nisbet however hasn't answered mine.

Where the **** have you answered the question about the three people A, B and C??

You dodged it, and keep dodging it.

You are showing yourself for the imbecile you really are.

 

[bunsen burner]

Where the **** have you answered the question about the three people A, B and C??

Here, knob head:

You want to means test people. Do you think that is financially feasible? Do you realise how much that would cost and how inefficient that would be? We know that their is a gap between indigenous Australians and the rest. Why wouldn't we cut out bureaycracy and inefficiencies and make the line right there?

Post #83

And this is from post #109

How are you going to administer and pay for this?


Any chance you racist bigots can answer my questions? If you don't want help to be limted to one race and at the same time available to everyone in that race, how are you going pay for it and administer it?


It's a bit rich you guys having a go at me for not answering questions when you haven't answered mine (which were asked first).

Now cough up or STFU.

 

[Schmucta]

Here, knob head:

You want to means test people. Do you think that is financially feasible? Do you realise how much that would cost and how inefficient that would be? We know that their is a gap between indigenous Australians and the rest. Why wouldn't we cut out bureaycracy and inefficiencies and make the line right there?

Post #83

And this is from post #109

How are you going to administer and pay for this?


Any chance you racist bigots can answer my questions? If you don't want help to be limted to one race and at the same time available to everyone in that race, how are you going pay for it and administer it?


It's a bit rich you guys having a go at me for not answering questions when you haven't answered mine (which were asked first).

Now cough up or STFU.

WTF does means testing have to do with it? You think that anyone who applies for the dole or the like is not means tested? Where is this big expense you talk of coming from? You would rather just give someone assistance because of the colour of their skin because it seems to hard to actually work out who needs the assistance and who so obviously does not. What are you smoking?

It is ok BB, you can say it, just come out and admit that the way you see things is from a racist viewpoint. Their are many of you out there, plenty in Private companies aswell based on the OP. What is pathetic is the fact that you are so quick to label someone who has said nothing of a racist nature, a racist, yet it is quite clearly you who is the racist. You want to determine everything you have talked about (assistance, jobs, etc. etc) on the colour of ones skin. For that you should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[bunsen burner]

It is ok BB, you can say it, just come out and admit that the way you see things is from a racist viewpoint.

You admit aborigines are way behind the rest of us when it comes to health and education. Yet when someone comes up with a scheme to help them you claim it's a bad idea and that they onlt have themselves to blame for their predicament.

It's clear who the racist is.

 

[Schmucta]

You admit aborigines are way behind the rest of us when it comes to health and education. Yet when someone comes up with a scheme to help them you claim it's a bad idea and that they onlt have themselves to blame for their predicament.

It's clear who the racist is.

No, flog, I claim that anyone who does not take up the opportunities of an education has no-one to blame but themselves.

You are the one who has brought race into anything I have said.

You are the one who seems to base everything on someone's race.

You are the one who would rather a racist scheme than something that would help all people in need.

I wonder if the shoe was on the other foot, would you be as adamant that it was a system that was needed?

 

[bunsen burner]

No, flog, I claim that anyone who does not take up the opportunities of an education has no-one to blame but themselves.

How is that different numb nut?

To put it simply you don't believe they should be helped. You're a racist.

 

[aaronm46]

be nice