Irish experiment

[blaze036]

You don't really understand the GAA do you? The core ethos of the organisation is that it is very much community based and all of the players have close ties to their home club/county. If players felt that going to try AFL would damage relationships at home with teammates they grew up with, fans, club members etc and create animosity, they would be far more reluctant to come over.

Believe me on this, the best way to ensure that there is opportunities for clubs like Collingwood to continue to secure the best talents is to maintain good relations with the GAA.

Considering the average income for an AFL player will be about 350k MORE than the GAA players... im not entirely sure if the damaged relationship between the two governing bodies would influence many decisions. Those whos decisions are influenced, clearly dont have the will to suceed in AFL anyway and so its better they never come in the first place. I dont confess to understand the GAA, but ur making ridiculas generalizations about "ALL" players there and trying to make it out like ur an expert.

The point is, Ireland is never going to accept AFL in their country, so lets look after ourselves and get the best young kids we can, its not like were gonna lose ratings. Of course we dont set out to kill GAA, but certainly dont reject players just for "relations" purposes.

RE Ed D, it would be impossible for the GAA to stop players leaving, short of them confiscating their passports and locking them up in the clubrooms.

 

[Ed D]

RE Ed D, it would be impossible for the GAA to stop players leaving, short of them confiscating their passports and locking them up in the clubrooms.

They couldn't stop them, only discourage. They could quite easily make it clear that they don't want Irish players going over to Australia and if they did they wouldn't be welcome back in the GAA on their return. That in itself would stop a lot of young players even trying out for AFL teams as they'd know if they didn't make it (which really they're not likely to) they couldn't play the game that they loved.

It's kind of like the ICC putting a ban on any cricketer who played in the ICL not only from playing but also any coaching or development roles.

It's all unlikely but it could happen if the GAA were treated poorly.

 

[Seldom Seen Kid]

Considering the average income for an AFL player will be about 350k MORE than the GAA players... im not entirely sure if the damaged relationship between the two governing bodies would influence many decisions. Those whos decisions are influenced, clearly dont have the will to suceed in AFL anyway and so its better they never come in the first place. I dont confess to understand the GAA, but ur making ridiculas generalizations about "ALL" players there and trying to make it out like ur an expert.

The point is, Ireland is never going to accept AFL in their country, so lets look after ourselves and get the best young kids we can, its not like were gonna lose ratings. Of course we dont set out to kill GAA, but certainly dont reject players just for "relations" purposes.

RE Ed D, it would be impossible for the GAA to stop players leaving, short of them confiscating their passports and locking them up in the clubrooms.

And you think that players who are motivated by the $350,000 average wage (is it really that high?) are the type of players who have the will to succeed?

Look, the success rate (say staying for 5 years +) for GAA converts is far below 50%, the players going over know that and really wouldn't be mad on going over without the blessing of clubs, counties etc. only to have to come crawling back after two years.

My point is that you will always have players that will be willing to go over, but its such a small percentage that have the ability to succeed that you want to give yourself the best chance of recruiting the elite players (and it is only the elite that will succeed). Maintaining goodwill is the best way of doing this. For the sake of a rookie list spot or two, disrupting this goodwill is really not worth the hassle and potential loss of top talent.

And no I'm not an expert but I have 20 years experience playing GAA at a pretty decent level against some of the best players in the game and I know a couple of lads who have had the AFL experience over the last few years. Just trying to give an Irish perspective on things is all

 

[76woodenspooners]

Considering the average income for an AFL player will be about 350k MORE than the GAA players... im not entirely sure if the damaged relationship between the two governing bodies would influence many decisions. Those whos decisions are influenced, clearly dont have the will to suceed in AFL anyway and so its better they never come in the first place.

The players are not necessarily going to be worried about damaging the relationship between the governing bodies. I'd imagine they'd be more worried about damaging the relationship between themselves and their community and a game they grew up with.

If an NFL team made a play on getting Travis Cloke with big dollars, would we just shrug our shoulders, accept that we couldn't match it and happly wave him off and wish him well? And with the promise of welcoming him back into the fold if he decides to go but it doesn't work out?

I don't think so.

There'd be all kinds of hand wringing and drama and expectation that Cloke would have some loyalty to Collingwood and the game of AFL (from some elements of the supporter base anyway). And there'd be all kinds of bellicose statements that if he leaves for the money, then he'll never be welcome back.

 

[Mansons Haircut]

Thanks for the responses guys, some interesting points discussed. FWIW ill make some comments in no particular order and with little degree of confidence
* Good pick up that Ireland is long past being an experiment. I was talking more from a Pies perspective as I think this will year 5-6 since Marty first drafted so we can start to draw some conclusions. I think end of this season will be a good time to take stock.
* Fair point that Marty Clarke second coming is to be assessed slightly differently however he was "found" through this program so his results still continue to count imo.
* My understanding is the rule change to bring the Irish inside the normal rookie list was a concession given to the GAA after they threatened to pull out of the IR series about 3 years ago. So it wasn't just a random "keep them happy" decision but a commercial call to keep the series alive. It gave the GAA a win to sell to their members partly in response to Ricky Nixon kicking up a fuss with his stupid trials. I don't agree with it just saying there was a reason. It's only a small minority opposed to kids coming over, most Irish people are delighted to see anyone get a shot at professional sport.
* Huge hype on Mooney I am right behind, he is a freak. Played for his senior county team before coming over to start preseason. They lost the GF in 2010 so are a strong team. It's the equivalent of Collingwood bringing a kid up from TAC Cup to play senior AFL footy, almost unheard of in Ireland. Won't be easy but he has a ripping attitude by all accounts.
* Cribbin has been a quiet achiever and won't suprise me at all if he takes big steps forward in his second year. Just needs some bulk up and probably tidy up his kicking a little. He is a smart classy footballer and at 191cm is in our top 3 endurance runners, that is elite at his height.

It's all guesswork for now but I'm going to really enjoy watching all 3 boys this year because if it pays off other clubs will be just sick that we picked them up during a compromised draft period while we had crap picks. I'm loving the effort to use our advantage in resources to go outside the draft. I kind of feel we deserve the reward for effort but life doesn't always work like that!

 

[captainMyCaptain]

For the amount of money clubs have outlayed on the so-called Irish experience it really has been a failure bar a few exceptions.

It would make more sense to chase american athletics who are use to being in a professional environment rather then keep going after Irish players who lack the drive and in some cases the skills which isnt a shock as they are from a a amateur comp.

 

[Seldom Seen Kid]

For the amount of money clubs have outlayed on the so-called Irish experience it really has been a failure bar a few exceptions.

It would make more sense to chase american athletics who are use to being in a professional environment rather then keep going after Irish players who lack the drive and in some cases the skills which isnt a shock as they are from a a amateur comp.

Have you any figures on how much money an Irish recruit costs versus a standard rookie? I hear it mentioned a lot as one of the cons of international recruitment but I struggle to see where the excessive additional costs are coming from, particularly for wealthy clubs like Collingwood.

The likes of Mike Pyke and McNamara haven't exactly torn up trees coming from other sporting backgrounds and no AFL club is going to attract anything close to elite talent from American Football or Basketball on a rookie wage to an alien sport.

Gaelic Football is the most compatible sport in terms of skill transfer to AFL and the recruiting process has only really being refined in the last few years. As I have said previously in the thread, only elite talents have the chance to succeed, the success rates have been low because certain clubs thought that they could bring over any Irish player and make him a star (particularly after Marty's impact) It just doesn't work like that.

And as for them lacking drive, to be honest you're showing a fair bit of ignorance to the situation. These lads are leaving home and a sport which many of them are stars in to travel to the other side of the world to try and make their name in a completely alien sport on a relatively poor wage (for the first couple of years at least). I don't think drive or ambition are an issue here. Of course homesickness has caused some of them to go home but its an issue a lot of Australian players have when drafted to another state, let alone the other side of the world.

Skill levels haven't been an issue when the right players have been recruited, Clarke, Hanley, Tuohy and Kennelly illustrate this.

 

[76woodenspooners]

For the amount of money clubs have outlayed on the so-called Irish experience it really has been a failure bar a few exceptions.

It would make more sense to chase american athletics who are use to being in a professional environment rather then keep going after Irish players who lack the drive and in some cases the skills which isnt a shock as they are from a a amateur comp.

Money doesn't create drive. Money only attracts talent, which is how we are able to get the Irish lads over here.

As for lacking skills - sure the Irish lads might have a learning curve learning how to kick, bounce, mark and handball an oval ball - but that's not going to be any easier for anybody coming from any other sport on the planet.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Have you any figures on how much money an Irish recruit costs versus a standard rookie? I hear it mentioned a lot as one of the cons of international recruitment but I struggle to see where the excessive additional costs are coming from, particularly for wealthy clubs like Collingwood.

The likes of Mike Pyke and McNamara haven't exactly torn up trees coming from other sporting backgrounds and no AFL club is going to attract anything close to elite talent from American Football or Basketball on a rookie wage to an alien sport.

Gaelic Football is the most compatible sport in terms of skill transfer to AFL and the recruiting process has only really being refined in the last few years. As I have said previously in the thread, only elite talents have the chance to succeed, the success rates have been low because certain clubs thought that they could bring over any Irish player and make him a star (particularly after Marty's impact) It just doesn't work like that.

And as for them lacking drive, to be honest you're showing a fair bit of ignorance to the situation. These lads are leaving home and a sport which many of them are stars in to travel to the other side of the world to try and make their name in a completely alien sport on a relatively poor wage (for the first couple of years at least). I don't think drive or ambition are an issue here. Of course homesickness has caused some of them to go home but its an issue a lot of Australian players have when drafted to another state, let alone the other side of the world.

Skill levels haven't been an issue when the right players have been recruited, Clarke, Hanley, Tuohy and Kennelly illustrate this.

Hey SSK, just curious, has there ever been any Aussie lads play Gaelic over there?

 

[captainMyCaptain]

Let's look at it this way since the days of Wright being recruited to the then VFL, 34 players have been recruited to VFL/AFL (as of last year) and of those 19 of 34 players didn't - or haven't yet - played a single game of top-level footy and several others played 1-3 games only. Melbourne had five forgotten Irish players who played an aggregate of three games, and in recent years Sydney have stated that they have been very disapointed in there irish recruits since Kennelly which is one of the reason they looked at the U.S, which led them to recruiting Alex Starling.

And of all these Irish recruits only Stynes, Kennelly and Wright have played more than 100 games of VFL/AFL

 

[Jedi01]

The likes of Mike Pyke and McNamara haven't exactly torn up trees coming from other sporting backgrounds and no AFL club is going to attract anything close to elite talent from American Football or Basketball on a rookie wage to an alien sport.

Something like 2% of College footballers get drafted to the NFL.

My understanding is that options are limited if you don't get drafted in terms of continuing to play professional sport. That is one massive playing pool to pick some players from.

 

[bennymac1]

For the amount of money clubs have outlayed on the so-called Irish experience it really has been a failure bar a few exceptions.

It would make more sense to chase american athletics who are use to being in a professional environment rather then keep going after Irish players who lack the drive and in some cases the skills which isnt a shock as they are from a a amateur comp.

what a load of balls!!!

 

[Seldom Seen Kid]

Let's look at it this way since the days of Wright being recruited to the then VFL, 34 players have been recruited to VFL/AFL (as of last year) and of those 19 of 34 players didn't - or haven't yet - played a single game of top-level footy and several others played 1-3 games only. Melbourne had five forgotten Irish players who played an aggregate of three games, and in recent years Sydney have stated that they have been very disapointed in there irish recruits since Kennelly which is one of the reason they looked at the U.S, which led them to recruiting Alex Starling.

And of all these Irish recruits only Stynes, Kennelly and Wright have played more than 100 games of VFL/AFL

Are you deliberately missing the points I've been making

The strike rate has been so low prior to the last couple of years because there was no thought put into the recruitment and sub-standard players were recruited, players without the tools to succeed in the AFL. Ricky Nixon's money-grabbing exercise duped clubs into thinking that they were recruiting elite players when the fact of the matter is that none of the players he sent over (Quinn, Donnelly, Meredith etc.) were good enough. All of the clubs who have done the recruiting thoroughly themselves like Brisbane, Collingwood and Carlton have had success.

And of course Sydney are so disillusioned with the Irish experiment that they went and spent actual National Draft picks on Tommy Walsh, who hasn't played a game yet, go figure.

 

[Seldom Seen Kid]

Something like 2% of College footballers get drafted to the NFL.

My understanding is that options are limited if you don't get drafted in terms of continuing to play professional sport. That is one massive playing pool to pick some players from.

That's interesting alright, certainly worth AFL clubs investigating alright, particularly as in draft terms its a free hit effectively unlike the Irish players. Trying to identify sure talent might be the difficult part as there is so many players out there. Obviously the skill set is different but certainly some wide receivers have the athletic talents necessary to make the grade, ball skills and and fitness base might be a different story.

 

[Quicky]

For the amount of money clubs have outlayed on the so-called Irish experience it really has been a failure bar a few exceptions.

It would make more sense to chase american athletics who are use to being in a professional environment rather then keep going after Irish players who lack the drive and in some cases the skills which isnt a shock as they are from a a amateur comp.

I think the argument is either poorly worded or pretty ignorant. Making a comparison about a players drive because they come from an amatuer comp is flimsy at best. I'd say that Irish ball skills would be at a higher level as Gaelic footy is more closely transferable than any of the American sports.

I do think you raise a good point about the recruitment of American players however and it is something I have thought about in the past. It is a very small percentage of players that make the grade in professional American sport and the pool of players is so large courtesy of the dollars in the American college system and population. There would be plenty of high class athletes that would be available if willing.

The biggest barrier of course being the fact they would come with no grounding in the game. I think for this reason you would be up against it to find "smalls" from America that would transition like the Irish boys do who play a very similar sport. You would however have the time to develop talls which typically take longer and you can afford to wait to develop. With American athletes it would be a matter of time as the learning curve would be very high. You would need to allow time and have a pretty driven individual.

P.S. SSK and benny I'm also interested to know if you know of any Aussie boys that have made the transition to playing Gaelic footy over there?

 

[Seldom Seen Kid]

Quicky I meant to answer that before but I forgot

None that I'm aware of at the top level anyway but the level of commitment required to reach even the top club level (each of Ireland's 32 counties would have maybe 12/16 senior clubs, the best club players would represent the county teams in the inter-county comps which is the top level) is huge i.e. 3 or 4 nights a week training and matches at the weekend.

Obviously most Aussies coming over here are on holidays or working to fund travelling etc so wouldn't have the time or inclination to make that level of commitment.

But obviously there's no doubt that most AFL players (and probably a lot of good VFL/WAFL etc players) would be GAA stars given a couple of years intensive training. Goodes has been probably the best International Rules player ever and would be and incredibly good Gaelic Footballer and the likes of Ablett, Didak, Stevie J etc have such freakish skills that a round ball wouldn't be any bother to them.

 

[76woodenspooners]

Quicky I meant to answer that before but I forgot

None that I'm aware of at the top level anyway but the level of commitment required to reach even the top club level (each of Ireland's 32 counties would have maybe 12/16 senior clubs, the best club players would represent the county teams in the inter-county comps which is the top level) is huge i.e. 3 or 4 nights a week training and matches at the weekend.

Obviously most Aussies coming over here are on holidays or working to fund travelling etc so wouldn't have the time or inclination to make that level of commitment.

But obviously there's no doubt that most AFL players (and probably a lot of good VFL/WAFL etc players) would be GAA stars given a couple of years intensive training. Goodes has been probably the best International Rules player ever and would be and incredibly good Gaelic Footballer and the likes of Ablett, Didak, Stevie J etc have such freakish skills that a round ball wouldn't be any bother to them.

Thanks SSK!

Maybe the AFL (as they're the ones with the professional dollars) could think about sponsoring a few Aussie lads to go over and play the Gaelic game. Would be a fantastic opportunity for a few young kids who aren't quite up to AFL level to live on the other side of the world and play sport.

It would provide Australia with another feeder source for the International rules comp. And it would be one of those human interest news stories to follow. And it would be a fantastic goodwill gesture between the codes - that relationship could do with some goodwill credit in the bank.

 

[Ed D]

Thanks SSK!

Maybe the AFL (as they're the ones with the professional dollars) could think about sponsoring a few Aussie lads to go over and play the Gaelic game. Would be a fantastic opportunity for a few young kids who aren't quite up to AFL level to live on the other side of the world and play sport.

It would provide Australia with another feeder source for the International rules comp. And it would be one of those human interest news stories to follow. And it would be a fantastic goodwill gesture between the codes - that relationship could do with some goodwill credit in the bank.

It's a nice thought but the bigest problem is that Gaelic football is an amatuer sport with full time training and it's not like jobs are free and flowing in Ireland either. Anyone who isn't quite up to AFL standard and wants to play the game would likely find themselves in the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc and have a salary, plus the chance to be recruited as an overage player. I don't think it could attract any decent talent.

 

[bennymac1]

Are you deliberately missing the points I've been making

The strike rate has been so low prior to the last couple of years because there was no thought put into the recruitment and sub-standard players were recruited, players without the tools to succeed in the AFL. Ricky Nixon's money-grabbing exercise duped clubs into thinking that they were recruiting elite players when the fact of the matter is that none of the players he sent over (Quinn, Donnelly, Meredith etc.) were good enough. All of the clubs who have done the recruiting thoroughly themselves like Brisbane, Collingwood and Carlton have had success.

And of course Sydney are so disillusioned with the Irish experiment that they went and spent actual National Draft picks on Tommy Walsh, who hasn't played a game yet, go figure.

quality post!!

 

[blaze036]

Clarke will be another 100+ gamer... i reckon mooney has a chance to be as well.

 

[bennymac1]

up in the north of the island here, i can't think of or no of any aussie's playing gaelic, agree totally with the time and commitment thing, even at club level its major and a must to bring yourself on and progress as a player, so for any backpacker the time and effort could be a major issue, might be a bit different if a fella had imagrated and had the time to try his hand right at the game and give it a real go, only then we could really no if the transition could work the other way around, all of the above players s,s,k named i think would'nt have a problem converting and another i for one would like to see is big buddy, think he would be emence and some site flowing through headquarters!!!

 

[Quicky]

Quicky I meant to answer that before but I forgot

None that I'm aware of at the top level anyway but the level of commitment required to reach even the top club level (each of Ireland's 32 counties would have maybe 12/16 senior clubs, the best club players would represent the county teams in the inter-county comps which is the top level) is huge i.e. 3 or 4 nights a week training and matches at the weekend.

Obviously most Aussies coming over here are on holidays or working to fund travelling etc so wouldn't have the time or inclination to make that level of commitment.

But obviously there's no doubt that most AFL players (and probably a lot of good VFL/WAFL etc players) would be GAA stars given a couple of years intensive training. Goodes has been probably the best International Rules player ever and would be and incredibly good Gaelic Footballer and the likes of Ablett, Didak, Stevie J etc have such freakish skills that a round ball wouldn't be any bother to them.

Which illustrates that the sport is hardly amatuer. It's a bit of a derisive term really. It's interesting that guys like Scott West, who only retired recently, was holding down a job as a plumber when he first started playing footy.

In regards to Aussies playing Gaelic footy I was thinking more local league level. But i'm ignorant of how the sport is set up in Ireland.

 

[76woodenspooners]

It's a nice thought but the bigest problem is that Gaelic football is an amatuer sport with full time training and it's not like jobs are free and flowing in Ireland either. Anyone who isn't quite up to AFL standard and wants to play the game would likely find themselves in the VFL/SANFL/WAFL etc and have a salary, plus the chance to be recruited as an overage player. I don't think it could attract any decent talent.

Appreciate the amateur side of it, but there are always ways when there's a will.

For example, send them over on a two year contract. Have the AFL pay them a rookie's wage to keep a blog or video diary or something.

Hey, I think back to when I was 18. If I had missed out on the draft, but the AFL offered me a paid flights trip plus rookie wage to play Gaelic and chase Irish lasses around the Emerald Isle for a couple of years - let's just say I would NOT be feeling like I'd won the booby prize!

By the way, I'm not suggesting the AFL's castoff's would be dominating Gaelic. They'd have to work very hard to earn their selection, just as they would here if they were drafted as a rookie.

And if they do well, you'd hardly think they'd be doing their chances of being drafted into the AFL as mature age any harm. Surely top level Gaelic training would be comparable to VFL / WAFL / SANFL / NEAFL? And any time away from the oval ball would be made up for by life experience, maturity, etc ...

 

[irish pie]

up in the north of the island here, i can't think of or no of any aussie's playing gaelic, agree totally with the time and commitment thing, even at club level its major and a must to bring yourself on and progress as a player, so for any backpacker the time and effort could be a major issue, might be a bit different if a fella had imagrated and had the time to try his hand right at the game and give it a real go, only then we could really no if the transition could work the other way around, all of the above players s,s,k named i think would'nt have a problem converting and another i for one would like to see is big buddy, think he would be emence and some site flowing through headquarters!!!

Do you think buddy would get 1 by you bennymac??

 

[Gman12]

Which illustrates that the sport is hardly amatuer. It's a bit of a derisive term really. It's interesting that guys like Scott West, who only retired recently, were holding down a job as a plumber when he first started playing footy.

In regards to Aussies playing Gaelic footy I was thinking more local league level. But i'm ignorant of how the sport is set up in Ireland.

Cant say I have heard of anyone playing it either, but thats not to say you wont have one or 2 guys playing at a very low junior level (you have senior clubs, then intermediate clubs, then a host of Junior clubs from grade A as far back as the county has teams) or something just for fitness sake. Although there are probably kids born to an Aussie parent and Irish parent knocking about in a few clubs.

The way it works here, is that your local club, is the club you play for, and that is it unless you move and live somewhere else. You cant just transfer to the next village/town because they have a better team (although it does happen and many try it) but the whole ethos is that you play for the area where you were born and grow up in.

If you are then deemed good enough, you get to play for your county. Again, you can only play for the county you were born in, or permanently reside in for work or family purposes. Its rare to see players from other counties transfer to a different one, and most often it is due to work situation. There is an ongoing case right now where a player is trying to transfer because he has fallen out with his manager, and its causing a bit of controversy here.

As for sending aussie kids over, not sure it would work really, for the reasons outlined above. Where would they move to? How do you determine what club/county they would play for? There are no contracts here, so there are no transfers (just thinking about that, when Kennelly quit Sydney to go home, I read comments on the Swans boards where they wanted his county Kerry to pay them compensation for him leaving).

When SSK was talking about the training, he was talking about training at club (local league) level, which is the standard level of anyone playing here. County players would generally train at peak times of up to 6 times a week and with a game too, and sometimes more if they train early morning before work and then in the evening after work. And Marty and Mooney have shown that the fitness levels of the 'amatuer' GAA player is not exactly that much worse than the professional levels of the AFL players.