Expansion IS IT TIME FOR TWO DIVISIONS ??

[Walshawk]

Then they would be motivated to play brilliant football to get back up into the top division. it is happening right now around the world in thousands of leagues.

Doesn’t make it right. Aussie rules is not soccer. Pass.

 

[RedV3x]

It 'works' in soccer because no salary cap or squad limit means the biggest clubs with the most supporters almost never get relegated.

He was talking about conferences not relegation.
There is a case for conferences which are effectively just a big league managed differently.
As for promotion and relegation there is plenty of it in Australian Football - just not at elite level.
The lower the level then the greater the impact of one player - as in soccer.
Both the AFL and NFL have equalisation measures like the draft.
This provides competitiveness. Remove the draft and then the games become more one-sided and less interesting.
This is why the AFL and NFL are so successful with attendances.
Even Australian soccer doesn't have promotion/relegation so it cannot be a good structure for Australia. USA, Canada, N.Z. etc.

 

[megadeth92]

Sounds like a horrible existence for the club and fans.

Yes, in one way, it is because they always lose more games than they win. But at least they feel they are 'up there" in the big league with more media coverage, TV live games occasionally, and long match reports in the newspaper.

 

[megadeth92]

Doesn’t make it right. Aussie rules is not soccer. Pass.

The old VFA had promotion and relegation, so do the amateur footy leagues, at least they do in Western Australia.

 

[megadeth92]

He was talking about conferences not relegation.
There is a case for conferences which are effectively just a big league managed differently.
As for promotion and relegation there is plenty of it in Australian Football - just not at elite level.
The lower the level then the greater the impact of one player - as in soccer.
Both the AFL and NFL have equalisation measures like the draft.
This provides competitiveness. Remove the draft and then the games become more one-sided and less interesting.
This is why the AFL and NFL are so successful with attendances.
Even Australian soccer doesn't have promotion/relegation so it cannot be a good structure for Australia. USA, Canada, N.Z. etc.

I think the OP was describing a two-division system with promotion and relegation. But conferences are obviously another possibility.

 

[megadeth92]

Absolutely FALSE.
I know why people say this but it is absolutely false logic.
People look at the presentation of AFL, they see a degradation in the presentation of AFL and they deduce that the "quality" is down.
When people think in terms of quality, that implies standard and the conclusion
that the standard is down because the talent is down and the talent is down because of the "dilution" of talent.

The real situation is that the visual presentation is down, due to the increase in defensive strategies, the increase in defensive pressure
and the increase in pressure overall.
Australian Football participation continues to increase, increasing the pool of available players.
Australian Football coaching, training and health continues to increase, increasing the skill of available players.

Because AFL players are of such high standards it is extremely difficult for the best to shine.
If you want to increase the spectacle of then it would indeed be a good idea to dilute the current pool of players
by introducing new teams requiring more players. Then the natural champions and the learned champions would stand out more.
Remember the good old day? The good old days had the champions and the champions stood out. Scoring was a lot more frequent.
It's impossible to undo the knowledge of defensive measures but it could be overcome.
You only have to watch the WAFL finals to see great football, great football that isn't at AFL "standard".

Yes, I used to enjoy WA premier-league soccer (supporting Perth Italia) as the games were much more enjoyable to watch than the A-League. It seems that the spectacle improves, up to a certain point, as quality improves but beyond that the spectacle deceases with quality.

You couldn't beat the spectacle of WAFL finals in the 1980s - Swans up against Claremont or Souths. i visited Claremont Oval a few years back on a weekday, walked out on to the sacred turf, and imagined Mossy knocking it down to Jimmy Krakouer then a long lead from Warren Ralph, mark, goal.

 

[Rob]

The old VFA had promotion and relegation, so do the amateur footy leagues, at least they do in Western Australia.

Lol, you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.

 

[RedV3x]

you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.

And that doesn't apply to the AFL or any other elite competition?
Promotion/relegation works where there is a constant state of flux
but in elite competitions where teams are more rigid then equalisation measures works better.

 

[Rob]

And that doesn't apply to the AFL or any other elite competition?
Promotion/relegation works where there is a constant state of flux
but in elite competitions where teams are more rigid then equalisation measures works better.

Works? What professional leagues with promotion and relegation have competitive balance?

 

[megadeth92]

Lol, you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.

I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade. In soccer you have had one club recently, Gwelup Croatia, get promoted from the amateurs up through about six tiers to the WA Premier League.

 

[megadeth92]

Works? What professional leagues with promotion and relegation have competitive balance?

Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

Pos	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification or relegation
1	Slavia Prague	30	22	6	2	58	10	+48	72	Qualification for the championship group
2	Viktoria Plzeň	30	20	6	4	60	22	+38	66
3	Sparta Prague	30	14	8	8	55	35	+20	50
4	Jablonec	30	14	7	9	46	41	+5	49
5	Slovan Liberec	30	14	5	11	50	38	+12	47
6	Baník Ostrava	30	12	9	9	42	34	+8	45
7	České Budějovice	30	13	4	13	46	45	+1	43	Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8	Bohemians 1905	30	12	6	12	38	41	−3	42[a]
9	Slovácko	30	11	9	10	35	35	0	42[a]
10	Mladá Boleslav	30	11	7	12	48	52	−4	40
11	Sigma Olomouc	30	8	12	10	36	37	−1	36	Qualification for the relegation group
12	Teplice	30	7	10	13	29	49	−20	31
13	Fastav Zlín	30	7	6	17	25	47	−22	27
14	Karviná	30	5	11	14	23	39	−16	26
15	Opava	30	5	8	17	16	47	−31	23
16	Příbram	30	5	6	19	19	54	−35	21

 

[Rob]

I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade. In soccer you have had one club recently, Gwelup Croatia, get promoted from the amateurs up through about six tiers to the WA Premier League.

I meant commercially. They don't need to pay players, they don't get people through the gates. I'm sure they want to win, but dropping a division (or getting promoted) doesn't have the earth shattering impact on the club that it would if an AFL club got relegated to Division 2.

Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

Pos	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification or relegation
1	Slavia Prague	30	22	6	2	58	10	+48	72	Qualification for the championship group
2	Viktoria Plzeň	30	20	6	4	60	22	+38	66
3	Sparta Prague	30	14	8	8	55	35	+20	50
4	Jablonec	30	14	7	9	46	41	+5	49
5	Slovan Liberec	30	14	5	11	50	38	+12	47
6	Baník Ostrava	30	12	9	9	42	34	+8	45
7	České Budějovice	30	13	4	13	46	45	+1	43	Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8	Bohemians 1905	30	12	6	12	38	41	−3	42[a]
9	Slovácko	30	11	9	10	35	35	0	42[a]
10	Mladá Boleslav	30	11	7	12	48	52	−4	40
11	Sigma Olomouc	30	8	12	10	36	37	−1	36	Qualification for the relegation group
12	Teplice	30	7	10	13	29	49	−20	31
13	Fastav Zlín	30	7	6	17	25	47	−22	27
14	Karviná	30	5	11	14	23	39	−16	26
15	Opava	30	5	8	17	16	47	−31	23
16	Příbram	30	5	6	19	19	54	−35	21

In the 27 seasons of the Czech premier league, just 5 teams have won it. 23 of those years have been won by 3 clubs (the top 3 in the 19-20 table).

Not a great example of competitive balance.

 

[RedV3x]

I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade.

Clubs prefer to play where they are competitive.
Not so long ago a famous Sunday League club wanted to join the amateurs and play A or B grade.
They were given no privileges and were forced to work their way up.
Because they were started so low, they lost players and never reached their former glory.
"Former glory" would be towards 10k attendance.

 

[megadeth92]

I meant commercially. They don't need to pay players, they don't get people through the gates. I'm sure they want to win, but dropping a division (or getting promoted) doesn't have the earth shattering impact on the club that it would if an AFL club got relegated to Division 2.



In the 27 seasons of the Czech premier league, just 5 teams have won it. 23 of those years have been won by 3 clubs (the top 3 in the 19-20 table).

Not a great example of competitive balance.

Bohemians (small club) beat Slavia Prague (massive club) 1-0 only last year. How many VFL clubs won flags from the mid-1960s through to the mid-1980s? Six I believe (and five if you start after 1966): Carlton, St Kilda, Richmond, Essendon, North Melbourne, Hawthorn (no pro-rel to blame there).

But I accept the point you make about amateur clubs not having much to lose by dropping a division as compared to professional clubs.

Here's another tight table, Scottish League One (third tier), 2019-20: Eight points separated first from fifth and only Stranraer was uncompetitive (and relegated). Second-bottom team had six wins and six draws. So I don't think pro-rel automatically means uneven leagues. Adding a Salary cap for each league would help matters too.

os	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	PPG	Promotion, qualification or relegation[a]
1	Raith Rovers (C)	28	15	8	5	49	33	+16	53	1.89	Promotion to the Championship
2	Falkirk	28	14	10	4	54	18	+36	52	1.86
3	Airdrieonians	28	14	6	8	38	27	+11	48	1.71
4	Montrose	28	15	2	11	48	38	+10	47	1.68
5	East Fife	28	12	9	7	44	36	+8	45	1.61
6	Dumbarton	28	11	5	12	35	44	−9	38	1.36
7	Clyde	28	9	7	12	35	43	−8	34	1.21
8	Peterhead	27	7	5	15	30	44	−14	26	0.96
9	Forfar Athletic	28	6	6	16	26	47	−21	24	0.86
10	Stranraer (R)	27	2	10	15	28	57	−29	16	0.59

 

[RedV3x]

So I don't think pro-rel automatically means uneven leagues.

Seriously? Cherrypicking some random irrelevant soccerfests is supposed to prove a point?

Adding a Salary cap for each league would help matters too.

That's admitting that the principle of promotion/relegation doesn't work in professional leagues.
The AFL has promotion/relegation. South Melbourne were relegated to Sydney and Fitzroy were promoted to Brisbane.
Everybody is saying that North should be relegated to Tasmania!
Remember that port Adelaide were indeed promoted to the AFL.

 

[Rob]

Bohemians (small club) beat Slavia Prague (massive club) 1-0 only last year. How many VFL clubs won flags from the mid-1960s through to the mid-1980s? Five I believe (and four if you start after 1966): Carlton, St Kilda, Richmond, Essendon, Hawthorn (no pro-rel to blame there).

But I accept the point you make about amateur clubs not having much to lose by dropping a division as compared to professional clubs.

It's not the pro-rel that causes imbalance per se, it's the imbalance that it inevitably causes because of the things that almost necessarily come along with it. Lack of salary caps, no draft, the natural movement of players towards stronger clubs with little danger of being relegated, the financial insecurity that comes with being a team that yo-yos between divisions. Likewise, no pro-rel is no guarantee of a competitive league.

But think about what you'd *really* be asking for when advocating for 2 divisions in the AFL. Think about how the draft would work - you can't send the best players to Division 2 clubs. You'd have to abolish it. You'd have to radically overhaul (if not abolish) the salary cap as 2nd tier clubs would be able to afford it and when those clubs get promoted they suddenly have to find half a new list worth of decent players just to not get relegated. Footy isn't like soccer, there aren't a bunch of leagues around the world to shop from. No decent player will want to play for a Div 2 team or a team likely to be threatened with relegation, so you'd have 4 or 5 teams that finish near the top every year. The same 4 or 5 teams.
Never mind TV will be pissed off because they have less elite product to show. And then there's stadium contracts - let's say North Melbourne gets relegated. Where will they play? Docklands would be too expensive for the small crowds that would watch them in Div 2. So where do they go? Arden St? Laughable. Or Melbourne? Do they still play at the MCG in front of 7000 people every game?

It's great to get all romantic about how it would look - and I agree that it would create some interest at the bottom of the table. But the negatives far, far outweigh the positives. Even soccer isn't dumb enough to have pro-rel in this country, which says something.

 

[Our Game]

No - never!

 

[RedV3x]

But think about what you'd *really* be asking for when advocating for 2 divisions in the AFL.

The facts.
For promotion/relegation you need a minimum of two divisions.
Next, you'd need to establish that national second division. Who's going to pay for that? Who's going to be invited?
People bulk at the cost of the NEAFL.

 

[RedV3x]

It's called "discussion', mate,

I'm not your mate and if discussion is not rational then it becomes a rant or a tirade or monologue or a troll......

you prefer American style cartel leagues

You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting nonsensical and non factual crap.
I like Australian Football and I have no problem with the way it's structured.
Australian Football was the original model of community football with community football players, playing in leagues for a championship.
All other community football followed Australian Football. RU, RL, American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football all follow this original model.
Soccer is the odd football having promotion/relegation.
The EPL is also a cartel you idiot.

a new entrant can't enter a league unless a new licence is granted by the regulator.

You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all club movements must be granted by the regulating authority.

But surely you get bored by the same teams playing each other every year?

You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all people see promoted sides as the easy-beats.
It's called history. People enjoy football teams that have a long history.

 

[RedV3x]

Easy, split the current AFL league into two divisions.

You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting the most ridiculous suggestion ever.
Why not half the EPL 1st division to make it more interesting?
The bottom half have absolutely no chance of winning.

 

[megadeth92]

I'm not your mate and if discussion is not rational then it becomes a rant or a tirade or monologue or a troll......



You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting nonsensical and non factual crap.
I like Australian Football and I have no problem with the way it's structured.
Australian Football was the original model of community football with community football players, playing in leagues for a championship.
All other community football followed Australian Football. RU, RL, American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football all follow this original model.
Soccer is the odd football having promotion/relegation.
The EPL is also a cartel you idiot.




You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all club movements must be granted by the regulating authority.



You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all people see promoted sides as the easy-beats.
It's called history. People enjoy football teams that have a long history.

Alright mate, good post. Sorry, I live in Scotland and we call each other "mate" here, it's a custom, I'm not sure about in Australia. Please don't take offence.

 

[Dogs till i die]

Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

Pos	Team	Pld	W	D	L	GF	GA	GD	Pts	Qualification or relegation
1	Slavia Prague	30	22	6	2	58	10	+48	72	Qualification for the championship group
2	Viktoria Plzeň	30	20	6	4	60	22	+38	66
3	Sparta Prague	30	14	8	8	55	35	+20	50
4	Jablonec	30	14	7	9	46	41	+5	49
5	Slovan Liberec	30	14	5	11	50	38	+12	47
6	Baník Ostrava	30	12	9	9	42	34	+8	45
7	České Budějovice	30	13	4	13	46	45	+1	43	Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8	Bohemians 1905	30	12	6	12	38	41	−3	42[a]
9	Slovácko	30	11	9	10	35	35	0	42[a]
10	Mladá Boleslav	30	11	7	12	48	52	−4	40
11	Sigma Olomouc	30	8	12	10	36	37	−1	36	Qualification for the relegation group
12	Teplice	30	7	10	13	29	49	−20	31
13	Fastav Zlín	30	7	6	17	25	47	−22	27
14	Karviná	30	5	11	14	23	39	−16	26
15	Opava	30	5	8	17	16	47	−31	23
16	Příbram	30	5	6	19	19	54	−35	21

As with many European soccer leagues, the gap is not so much from 1st to 3rd or 4th, its from there to the rest. They don't call it the "big 6" in the EPL for nothing. Most countries relegate 2/3 ordinary teams and promote 2/3 other ordinary teams.

Thankfully, is in no way comparable to the AFL.

 

[Demonic Ascent]

Did the "colleague of mine in Adelaide" start watching soccer in the last 6 months like everyone else who makes these threads?

It 'works' in soccer because no salary cap or squad limit means the biggest clubs with the most supporters almost never get relegated.

To be fair pretty much every lower level metro league has the same Division system with promotion/relegation (not sure about country leagues?) It's a sh*t idea for the AFL though, may have been an option when expanding nationally in the 80s keeping clubs from the WAFL/SANFL/TAS etc but that horse bolted decades ago