Expansion IS IT TIME FOR TWO DIVISIONS ??

Remove this Banner Ad

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
It 'works' in soccer because no salary cap or squad limit means the biggest clubs with the most supporters almost never get relegated.
He was talking about conferences not relegation.
There is a case for conferences which are effectively just a big league managed differently.
As for promotion and relegation there is plenty of it in Australian Football - just not at elite level.
The lower the level then the greater the impact of one player - as in soccer.
Both the AFL and NFL have equalisation measures like the draft.
This provides competitiveness. Remove the draft and then the games become more one-sided and less interesting.
This is why the AFL and NFL are so successful with attendances.
Even Australian soccer doesn't have promotion/relegation so it cannot be a good structure for Australia. USA, Canada, N.Z. etc.
 

Log in to remove this ad.

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
He was talking about conferences not relegation.
There is a case for conferences which are effectively just a big league managed differently.
As for promotion and relegation there is plenty of it in Australian Football - just not at elite level.
The lower the level then the greater the impact of one player - as in soccer.
Both the AFL and NFL have equalisation measures like the draft.
This provides competitiveness. Remove the draft and then the games become more one-sided and less interesting.
This is why the AFL and NFL are so successful with attendances.
Even Australian soccer doesn't have promotion/relegation so it cannot be a good structure for Australia. USA, Canada, N.Z. etc.
I think the OP was describing a two-division system with promotion and relegation. But conferences are obviously another possibility.
 

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
Absolutely FALSE.
I know why people say this but it is absolutely false logic.
People look at the presentation of AFL, they see a degradation in the presentation of AFL and they deduce that the "quality" is down.
When people think in terms of quality, that implies standard and the conclusion
that the standard is down because the talent is down and the talent is down because of the "dilution" of talent.

The real situation is that the visual presentation is down, due to the increase in defensive strategies, the increase in defensive pressure
and the increase in pressure overall.
Australian Football participation continues to increase, increasing the pool of available players.
Australian Football coaching, training and health continues to increase, increasing the skill of available players.

Because AFL players are of such high standards it is extremely difficult for the best to shine.
If you want to increase the spectacle of then it would indeed be a good idea to dilute the current pool of players
by introducing new teams requiring more players. Then the natural champions and the learned champions would stand out more.
Remember the good old day? The good old days had the champions and the champions stood out. Scoring was a lot more frequent.
It's impossible to undo the knowledge of defensive measures but it could be overcome.
You only have to watch the WAFL finals to see great football, great football that isn't at AFL "standard".
Yes, I used to enjoy WA premier-league soccer (supporting Perth Italia) as the games were much more enjoyable to watch than the A-League. It seems that the spectacle improves, up to a certain point, as quality improves but beyond that the spectacle deceases with quality.

You couldn't beat the spectacle of WAFL finals in the 1980s - Swans up against Claremont or Souths. i visited Claremont Oval a few years back on a weekday, walked out on to the sacred turf, and imagined Mossy knocking it down to Jimmy Krakouer then a long lead from Warren Ralph, mark, goal.
 

Rob

Hall of Famer
Nov 8, 2000
30,223
17,560
South of the river
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Peel Thunder
The old VFA had promotion and relegation, so do the amateur footy leagues, at least they do in Western Australia.
Lol, you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.
 

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.
And that doesn't apply to the AFL or any other elite competition?
Promotion/relegation works where there is a constant state of flux
but in elite competitions where teams are more rigid then equalisation measures works better.
 

Rob

Hall of Famer
Nov 8, 2000
30,223
17,560
South of the river
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Peel Thunder
And that doesn't apply to the AFL or any other elite competition?
Promotion/relegation works where there is a constant state of flux
but in elite competitions where teams are more rigid then equalisation measures works better.
Works? What professional leagues with promotion and relegation have competitive balance?
 

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
Lol, you're talking about amateur leagues where it's in the interests of everyone to have teams not get smashed. It doesn't matter much to an ammos club whether they're playing in D grade or E grade.
I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade. In soccer you have had one club recently, Gwelup Croatia, get promoted from the amateurs up through about six tiers to the WA Premier League.
 

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
Works? What professional leagues with promotion and relegation have competitive balance?
Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

PosTeamPldWDLGFGAGDPtsQualification or relegation
1Slavia Prague3022625810+4872Qualification for the championship group
2Viktoria Plzeň3020646022+3866
3Sparta Prague3014885535+2050
4Jablonec3014794641+549
5Slovan Liberec30145115038+1247
6Baník Ostrava3012994234+845
7České Budějovice30134134645+143Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8Bohemians 190530126123841−342[a]
9Slovácko30119103535042[a]
10Mladá Boleslav30117124852−440
11Sigma Olomouc30812103637−136Qualification for the relegation group
12Teplice30710132949−2031
13Fastav Zlín3076172547−2227
14Karviná30511142339−1626
15Opava3058171647−3123
16Příbram3056191954−3521
 

Rob

Hall of Famer
Nov 8, 2000
30,223
17,560
South of the river
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Peel Thunder
I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade. In soccer you have had one club recently, Gwelup Croatia, get promoted from the amateurs up through about six tiers to the WA Premier League.
I meant commercially. They don't need to pay players, they don't get people through the gates. I'm sure they want to win, but dropping a division (or getting promoted) doesn't have the earth shattering impact on the club that it would if an AFL club got relegated to Division 2.

Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

PosTeamPldWDLGFGAGDPtsQualification or relegation
1Slavia Prague3022625810+4872Qualification for the championship group
2Viktoria Plzeň3020646022+3866
3Sparta Prague3014885535+2050
4Jablonec3014794641+549
5Slovan Liberec30145115038+1247
6Baník Ostrava3012994234+845
7České Budějovice30134134645+143Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8Bohemians 190530126123841−342[a]
9Slovácko30119103535042[a]
10Mladá Boleslav30117124852−440
11Sigma Olomouc30812103637−136Qualification for the relegation group
12Teplice30710132949−2031
13Fastav Zlín3076172547−2227
14Karviná30511142339−1626
15Opava3058171647−3123
16Příbram3056191954−3521
In the 27 seasons of the Czech premier league, just 5 teams have won it. 23 of those years have been won by 3 clubs (the top 3 in the 19-20 table).

Not a great example of competitive balance.
 

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
I think an ambitious amateur club would much prefer to be in A-grade rather than B-grade.
Clubs prefer to play where they are competitive.
Not so long ago a famous Sunday League club wanted to join the amateurs and play A or B grade.
They were given no privileges and were forced to work their way up.
Because they were started so low, they lost players and never reached their former glory.
"Former glory" would be towards 10k attendance.
 

(Log in to remove this ad.)

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
I meant commercially. They don't need to pay players, they don't get people through the gates. I'm sure they want to win, but dropping a division (or getting promoted) doesn't have the earth shattering impact on the club that it would if an AFL club got relegated to Division 2.



In the 27 seasons of the Czech premier league, just 5 teams have won it. 23 of those years have been won by 3 clubs (the top 3 in the 19-20 table).

Not a great example of competitive balance.
Bohemians (small club) beat Slavia Prague (massive club) 1-0 only last year. How many VFL clubs won flags from the mid-1960s through to the mid-1980s? Six I believe (and five if you start after 1966): Carlton, St Kilda, Richmond, Essendon, North Melbourne, Hawthorn (no pro-rel to blame there).

But I accept the point you make about amateur clubs not having much to lose by dropping a division as compared to professional clubs.

Here's another tight table, Scottish League One (third tier), 2019-20: Eight points separated first from fifth and only Stranraer was uncompetitive (and relegated). Second-bottom team had six wins and six draws. So I don't think pro-rel automatically means uneven leagues. Adding a Salary cap for each league would help matters too.


osTeamPldWDLGFGAGDPtsPPGPromotion, qualification or relegation[a]
1Raith Rovers (C)2815854933+16531.89Promotion to the Championship
2Falkirk28141045418+36521.86
3Airdrieonians2814683827+11481.71
4Montrose28152114838+10471.68
5East Fife2812974436+8451.61
6Dumbarton28115123544−9381.36
7Clyde2897123543−8341.21
8Peterhead2775153044−14260.96
9Forfar Athletic2866162647−21240.86
10Stranraer (R)27210152857−29160.59
 
Last edited:

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
So I don't think pro-rel automatically means uneven leagues.
Seriously? Cherrypicking some random irrelevant soccerfests is supposed to prove a point?

Adding a Salary cap for each league would help matters too.
That's admitting that the principle of promotion/relegation doesn't work in professional leagues.
The AFL has promotion/relegation. South Melbourne were relegated to Sydney and Fitzroy were promoted to Brisbane.
Everybody is saying that North should be relegated to Tasmania!
Remember that port Adelaide were indeed promoted to the AFL.

 

Rob

Hall of Famer
Nov 8, 2000
30,223
17,560
South of the river
AFL Club
Fremantle
Other Teams
Peel Thunder
Bohemians (small club) beat Slavia Prague (massive club) 1-0 only last year. How many VFL clubs won flags from the mid-1960s through to the mid-1980s? Five I believe (and four if you start after 1966): Carlton, St Kilda, Richmond, Essendon, Hawthorn (no pro-rel to blame there).

But I accept the point you make about amateur clubs not having much to lose by dropping a division as compared to professional clubs.
It's not the pro-rel that causes imbalance per se, it's the imbalance that it inevitably causes because of the things that almost necessarily come along with it. Lack of salary caps, no draft, the natural movement of players towards stronger clubs with little danger of being relegated, the financial insecurity that comes with being a team that yo-yos between divisions. Likewise, no pro-rel is no guarantee of a competitive league.

But think about what you'd *really* be asking for when advocating for 2 divisions in the AFL. Think about how the draft would work - you can't send the best players to Division 2 clubs. You'd have to abolish it. You'd have to radically overhaul (if not abolish) the salary cap as 2nd tier clubs would be able to afford it and when those clubs get promoted they suddenly have to find half a new list worth of decent players just to not get relegated. Footy isn't like soccer, there aren't a bunch of leagues around the world to shop from. No decent player will want to play for a Div 2 team or a team likely to be threatened with relegation, so you'd have 4 or 5 teams that finish near the top every year. The same 4 or 5 teams.
Never mind TV will be pissed off because they have less elite product to show. And then there's stadium contracts - let's say North Melbourne gets relegated. Where will they play? Docklands would be too expensive for the small crowds that would watch them in Div 2. So where do they go? Arden St? Laughable. Or Melbourne? Do they still play at the MCG in front of 7000 people every game?

It's great to get all romantic about how it would look - and I agree that it would create some interest at the bottom of the table. But the negatives far, far outweigh the positives. Even soccer isn't dumb enough to have pro-rel in this country, which says something.
 

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
But think about what you'd *really* be asking for when advocating for 2 divisions in the AFL.
The facts.
For promotion/relegation you need a minimum of two divisions.
Next, you'd need to establish that national second division. Who's going to pay for that? Who's going to be invited?
People bulk at the cost of the NEAFL.
 

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
It's called "discussion', mate,
I'm not your mate and if discussion is not rational then it becomes a rant or a tirade or monologue or a troll......

you prefer American style cartel leagues
You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting nonsensical and non factual crap.
I like Australian Football and I have no problem with the way it's structured.
Australian Football was the original model of community football with community football players, playing in leagues for a championship.
All other community football followed Australian Football. RU, RL, American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football all follow this original model.
Soccer is the odd football having promotion/relegation.
The EPL is also a cartel you idiot.


a new entrant can't enter a league unless a new licence is granted by the regulator.
You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all club movements must be granted by the regulating authority.

But surely you get bored by the same teams playing each other every year?
You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all people see promoted sides as the easy-beats.
It's called history. People enjoy football teams that have a long history.
 
Last edited:

RedV3x

Premiership Player
Dec 14, 2015
3,075
719
AFL Club
Fremantle
Easy, split the current AFL league into two divisions.
You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting the most ridiculous suggestion ever.
Why not half the EPL 1st division to make it more interesting?
The bottom half have absolutely no chance of winning.
 

megadeth92

Senior List
Jul 21, 2020
220
143
Lautoka, Fiji Islands
AFL Club
Collingwood
I'm not your mate and if discussion is not rational then it becomes a rant or a tirade or monologue or a troll......



You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting nonsensical and non factual crap.
I like Australian Football and I have no problem with the way it's structured.
Australian Football was the original model of community football with community football players, playing in leagues for a championship.
All other community football followed Australian Football. RU, RL, American Football, Canadian Football and Gaelic Football all follow this original model.
Soccer is the odd football having promotion/relegation.
The EPL is also a cartel you idiot.




You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all club movements must be granted by the regulating authority.



You see; we're NOT having a discussion you're posting meaningless nonsense since all people see promoted sides as the easy-beats.
It's called history. People enjoy football teams that have a long history.
Alright mate, good post. Sorry, I live in Scotland and we call each other "mate" here, it's a custom, I'm not sure about in Australia. Please don't take offence.
 

Dogs till i die

Club Legend
Dec 30, 2003
1,568
1,324
Melbourne western region
AFL Club
Western Bulldogs
Other Teams
Bulldogs / Willy / Palace
Czech Premier League, 2019-20:
That's pretty balanced and even I would say. Ten points separated third from tenth. Bottom club won five games (some years in the 1980s St Kilda or Melbourne would have died to have achieved five wins, same with the Suns in their first few years).

PosTeamPldWDLGFGAGDPtsQualification or relegation
1Slavia Prague3022625810+4872Qualification for the championship group
2Viktoria Plzeň3020646022+3866
3Sparta Prague3014885535+2050
4Jablonec3014794641+549
5Slovan Liberec30145115038+1247
6Baník Ostrava3012994234+845
7České Budějovice30134134645+143Qualification for the Europa League play-offs
8Bohemians 190530126123841−342[a]
9Slovácko30119103535042[a]
10Mladá Boleslav30117124852−440
11Sigma Olomouc30812103637−136Qualification for the relegation group
12Teplice30710132949−2031
13Fastav Zlín3076172547−2227
14Karviná30511142339−1626
15Opava3058171647−3123
16Příbram3056191954−3521
As with many European soccer leagues, the gap is not so much from 1st to 3rd or 4th, its from there to the rest. They don't call it the "big 6" in the EPL for nothing. Most countries relegate 2/3 ordinary teams and promote 2/3 other ordinary teams.

Thankfully, is in no way comparable to the AFL.
 

Demonic Ascent

Brownlow Medallist
Feb 21, 2006
16,491
12,865
Muckertal
AFL Club
Melbourne
Other Teams
Turtles, NYJets, Celtics, Tottenham
Did the "colleague of mine in Adelaide" start watching soccer in the last 6 months like everyone else who makes these threads?

It 'works' in soccer because no salary cap or squad limit means the biggest clubs with the most supporters almost never get relegated.
To be fair pretty much every lower level metro league has the same Division system with promotion/relegation (not sure about country leagues?) It's a sh*t idea for the AFL though, may have been an option when expanding nationally in the 80s keeping clubs from the WAFL/SANFL/TAS etc but that horse bolted decades ago
 

Remove this Banner Ad