Analysis Is our forward line functioning better without Cox?

[jathanas]

Cox was huge in last year's finals series but we haven't looked this dangerous in 2019 with him in the side (round 1 excepted?).

Yesterday's rotating forward line with Billy a focal point deep worked so well it had me doubting that Cox would have made us any better yesterday.

 

[September Action]

Yep.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Yep.

2020 will be interesting.

 

[Chrispiesssss]

I think we are forced to lower our eyes, and we can’t bomb into the 50.

We are being more accurate and less reliant on contested marks Inside 50.

We’ll see how we cope against the Tigers and Eagles.

 

[DinoSoar]

Not sure, it’s hard to tell. The whole team is now playing better, especially the midfield which makes a huge difference in terms of delivery into fwd 50. Moving Roughie out of defence hasn’t hurt us so far either, but again that’s a reflection of the mids working harder so that the ball isn’t getting in there in avalanche proportions. Jury’s still out.

 

[jimmy35]

At the moment it is, but then again we’re playing better as well. Maybe the 2 are related.
Is Roughie and Brody a premiership quality forward duo...? Doesn’t seem to have the same fear to it as Jack and Lynch or Darling and Kennedy does but hopefully the other pieces of a our puzzle can be better.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

At the moment it is, but then again we’re playing better as well. Maybe the 2 are related.
Is Roughie and Brody a premiership quality forward duo...? Doesn’t seem to have the same fear to it as Jack and Lynch or Darling and Kennedy does but hopefully the other pieces of a our puzzle can be better.

Roughie won a flag with Tom Boyd....

 

[Scodog10]

How dare you jathanas? How could a forward line possibly function better without a guy that’s got poor hands, can’t get separation on the lead and can’t lock the ball in?

IMO, it’s no coincidence that we’re scoring more on turnover, applying more pressure and moving the ball better because we no longer have the mindset that if we’re stagnant we can just bail out to Cox and reset. We’re also targeting more talented and natural footballers more often I50 with Elliott the biggest beneficiary.

It’s not to say the experiment is over just that both Cox and Collingwood need a reset on how he best benefits the team in 2020.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

We've also played Gold Coast Melbourne and Adelaide since missing Cox. Perhaps we need to see how we perform against real opponents before drawing any longer term conclusions.

 

[jonbe54]

How dare you jathanas? How could a forward line possibly function better without a guy that’s got poor hands, can’t get separation on the lead and can’t lock the ball in?

IMO, it’s no coincidence that we’re scoring more on turnover, applying more pressure and moving the ball better because we no longer have the mindset that if we’re stagnant we can just bail out to Cox and reset. We’re also targeting more talented and natural footballers more often I50 with Elliott the biggest beneficiary.

It’s not to say the experiment is over just that both Cox and Collingwood need a reset on how he best benefits the team in 2020.

Fkin lol Sco you are a piece of work lol.

Cox is no world beater and never will be but watching the ball being delivered endlessly to the position where he can be forced under the ball instead of to his advantage on the lead is a far bigger annoyance for me.

 

[left at home]

It’s really to early yet, to make a decision one way or another.
Teams we have played against have not been top notch.

 

[jathanas]

How dare you jathanas? How could a forward line possibly function better without a guy that’s got poor hands, can’t get separation on the lead and can’t lock the ball in?

IMO, it’s no coincidence that we’re scoring more on turnover, applying more pressure and moving the ball better because we no longer have the mindset that if we’re stagnant we can just bail out to Cox and reset. We’re also targeting more talented and natural footballers more often I50 with Elliott the biggest beneficiary.

It’s not to say the experiment is over just that both Cox and Collingwood need a reset on how he best benefits the team in 2020.

Well said and I agree Sco, it's not "black and white".

I don't see the Cox experiment as over but we have to find way to include him without impacting all the positives on display yesterday. Cox can be a valuable asset but he is no Wayne Carey and we shouldn't play as if he is.

 

[YouBeauty]

We can clearly cover the loss of cox in the forward line. Not convinced we can cover him around the ground, there are key situations when he takes marks down the line coming out of defence that are pivotal.

 

[Finnishpie]

The answer is yes.

BUT, Roughead isn't a natural forward and hasn't kicked a goal since he's been moved there. Once Moore is ready, he goes forward and Roughead is sent back. It's our only hope OBI.

 

[barrackers]

The question for me is more how will our defence function against the tall forwards of West Coast and 9th-mond.

Moore returning will help.

 

[neilk]

The forward group would be line-ball with Cox compared to current, but the back line would be much stronger if it allowed Roughead to go back.
And Cox in the ruck is much better than Roughead.

 

[jathanas]

but the back line would be much stronger if it allowed Roughead to go back.

Agree

And Cox in the ruck is much better than Roughead.

Agree

The forward group would be line-ball with Cox compared to current,

Not so sure about this. Yesterday we looked as / or more dangerous than any other game this year and part of the reason was the way Varcoe and Billy were leading and how we were delivering to them.

 

[Occidental]

Cox has been way off form all year.
Are we missing an out of form player? Obviously no.
Would we miss an in form Cox, then yes.
But no one gets carried waiting forever for a form reversal.
When Cox is back in 2020, there will be (and should be) no guarantees of a game.

 

[Scodog10]

Fkin lol Sco you are a piece of work lol.

Cox is no world beater and never will be but watching the ball being delivered endlessly to the position where he can be forced under the ball instead of to his advantage on the lead is a far bigger annoyance for me.

This goes hand in glove with why we’re functioning better.

Let’s forget the opposition for a moment and focus on what we’re controlling which for mine is our pressure and that has increased markedly without Cox. This means that we’re turning it over more regularly inside 80 of goal which is allowing us to go quicker I50. With Cox in the line up the pressure dial wasn’t as high so we’re turning it over deeper in defence forcing us to go slower when we win it necessitating a lot of those long down the line options. It’s chicken and egg stuff.

The key for me is finding a balance which allows us to apply copious amounts of pressure for us to go quicker on the turnover isolating Cox more in those deeper one on one’s. This opens the door for more free kicks and spillages resulting in one on one’s.

Well said and I agree Sco, it's not "black and white".

I don't see the Cox experiment as over but we have to find way to include him without impacting all the positives on display yesterday. Cox can be a valuable asset but he is no Wayne Carey and we shouldn't play as if he is.

This isn’t the thinking internally, but we’ve played as if he is in 2019. I think the PF performance, whilst amazing, was obviously a false economy which we invested too heavily in. IMO, if Roughead can begin to hit the scoreboard (I doubt they throw Moore forward now) then it’s a better fit for the system than we’ve employed at any other point this year.

 

[CasuallyDressed]

Yep. He's horrible.

 

[magpies42]

Hard to say. I think we have far fewer intercept marks when he is in the side, he also allows us to maintain our back half structure by rotating into the ruck.

I think his game has really regressed since his breakout game against Richmond. I think he lacks the mongrel and doesn’t fly for marks as he should because he’s too worried about the inevitable fall. Good key forwards are absolutely fearless, think Cloke.

 

[jonbe54]

This goes hand in glove with why we’re functioning better.

Let’s forget the opposition for a moment and focus on what we’re controlling which for mine is our pressure and that has increased markedly without Cox. This means that we’re turning it over more regularly inside 80 of goal which is allowing us to go quicker I50. With Cox in the line up the pressure dial wasn’t as high so we’re turning it over deeper in defence forcing us to go slower when we win it necessitating a lot of those long down the line options. It’s chicken and egg stuff.

The key for me is finding a balance which allows us to apply copious amounts of pressure for us to go quicker on the turnover isolating Cox more in those deeper one on one’s. This opens the door for more free kicks and spillages resulting in one on one’s.



This isn’t the thinking internally, but we’ve played as if he is in 2019. I think the PF performance, whilst amazing, was obviously a false economy which we invested too heavily in. IMO, if Roughead can begin to hit the scoreboard (I doubt they throw Moore forward now) then it’s a better fit for the system than we’ve employed at any other point this year.

I believe a lot of the matters with - and without - Cox are interrelated and indivisible essentially.

It's impossible to divine if we are a better attacking side without him as our kicking into the forward line has been atrocious. This in turn can be linked to lack of a balanced midfield which puts the wingers and half back flankers under pressure resulting in scrappy kicks forward.

Also the loss of Stevo and DeGoo resulted in an over reliance on the big bloke and the ease of which opposing back lines can concentrate on double and triple team him, block his run etc.

Nothing cut and dried about it, but when any team relies on a single avenue to goals it is fraught with danger.

Remember when we had Clokey?

At times when he was out or unavailable the same thing happened.

Balance across the entire team on the ground is the key.

 

[DrSerp]

Yesterday was the best that we've looked since that Brisbane or Port game (Cox was also out for that Port game). However, once we actually play a side with finals-like pressure I think that will be the gauge of whether we function better without Cox - As we'll also have Stevo and De Goey back.

It was good to see us actually focus on transitioning the footy down the ground through various different outlets rather than the classic bail out kick down the line to Cox or Mihocek which often resulted in an instant turnover and us getting obliterated in transition post the bye week.

I think that structurally we are a lot better without Cox as we actually can apply forward pressure which was a staple of our run to the GF last year. Mihocek has really held up for us and Roughy is effectively a more mobile Cox atm although positionally he is obviously not all there.

I'd anticipate that getting De Goey and Stevo into that forward line will have it firing in the finals as Stevo will have that deep forward role that he does so well whilst De Goey can rotate as a 1B option to Mihocek.

I think that we've just become a lot more balanced and Cox being out effectively forced us to reconsider how we were actually entering the 50. Yesterday was honestly the first time i've seen Elliot getting hit lace out all season rather than having him contend against a bloke who is a foot taller than him and expecting him to take a miraculous mark.

All in all, it would be harsh to say that the forward line is better without Cox, but I definately think that his absence prompted a slight rejig as to how we were actually advancing up the ground, and the forced commitment to the small forward line has meant that our forward pressure is back to 2018 levels. It also helps when we win clearances which usually isn't the case!

 

[Nebula1971]

I loved what Cox did in the Prelim last year, we all did. Took him a half in the GF to get going. Unfortunately that was in the wrong half.

Although I see a lot of benefits with Cox in our team, as the game unfolded yesterday, I said to my mate “we flow so much better without him”.

The question that needs to be asked right now is “at this present point, if Cox was available, would you select him given our performance yesterday with our different forward structure?”. I know I wouldn’t. This does not suggest I’d never have him in our 22, it just represents that CURRENTLY I’d be going without him.

 

[jonbe54]

I loved what Cox did in the Prelim last year, we all did. Took him a half in the GF to get going. Unfortunately that was in the wrong half.

Although I see a lot of benefits with Cox in our team, as the game unfolded yesterday, I said to my mate “we flow so much better without him”.

The question that needs to be asked right now is “at this present point, if Cox was available, would you select him given our performance yesterday with our different forward structure?”. I know I wouldn’t. This does not suggest I’d never have him in our 22, it just represents that CURRENTLY I’d be going without him.

Team selection and list balance are incredibly complex and fluid areas - to do without Cox in the forward line we are missing out on his marking further down the ground - whilst with him up forward he draws the ball sometimes too much than is healthy for structure.

Much of it comes down to opponents and good quality game plans and discipline within the playing group.