Club History is there any getting over the saga?

[RudyBlue]

Swap Cripps and Ed Curnow for Myers and Heppell on the weekend and your mob win by 5+ goals.

There's a lot of talent at your disposal, you have that one glaring hole in your list though.

 

[Howard Moon]

another way of looking at it.

Sheedy might have been our Norm Smith - and we are 10 years into the post sheedy malaise - the saga just being a part of it.

only 12 years to go if we are on the Melbourne path

 

[Doss]

another way of looking at it.

Sheedy might have been our Norm Smith - and we are 10 years into the post sheedy malaise - the saga just being a part of it.

only 12 years to go if we are on the Melbourne path

Norm Smith had just come off coaching six flags in ten seasons when he was sacked in 1965. Sheeds was cooked. I know that's not entirely the point you're making but the malaise started while Sheeds was still there. Make no mistake about that.

 

[Howard Moon]

Norm Smith had just come off coaching six flags in ten seasons when he was sacked in 1965. Sheeds was cooked. I know that's not entirely the point you're making but the malaise started while Sheeds was still there. Make no mistake about that.

There are grounds for suggestion its bad business to keep any one in charge of anything longer than say 7 years - think there are loads of examples of clubs/business/organisations/countries having times in the doldrums after a long term successful leader has gone. Maybe its why a lot of countries limit the amount of time a leader can govern.

 

[JayJ20]

another way of looking at it.

Sheedy might have been our Norm Smith - and we are 10 years into the post sheedy malaise - the saga just being a part of it.

only 12 years to go if we are on the Melbourne path

Sheedy was our Alex Ferguson. Manchester United haven't achieved anything since. Surpassed by their neighbours in almost every aspect.

 

[Mercurial89]

Makes you wonder John wanted to change the game style so we could take the next step

would that imply if we had have left it as it was, would we still be winning games but capped at the bottom half of the 8?
)

You dont have to wonder.

He and the club are on record as saying this. We could have continued playing highly offensive footy that doesnt stack up in finals. I think ant555 has been saying this in the John Worsfold thread too (forgive me Ant if I'm misquoting you).

Woosh said last year, we are launching too many attacks from half back, our pressure up the field and through the midfield is not stopping enough opposition attacks. He was saying this last year, very early, even when we were winning.

He, i think Goddard and others at the club are on record as stating we have tinkered with the way we play but every team is trying to do it. More forward half pressure. As has been mentioned all over this site, we have lazy players and a sub par midfield.

Try and ignore what the media are saying. Wheately as much as i respect him as a journalist has been one of the more heinously wrong on this topic. Having a crack at the team and coach and the gameplan. Saying that we are the ONLY club trying to do it.

We arent trying to do it, but when you get smashed out of the midfield you are going to be attacking off your back line a lot. Its very simple.

we are poor on field, we are have holes of genuine concern in our list and the fitness staff and coaching group have questions over them.

This is all unrelated to the saga and is part and parcel of being a poor football team.

 

[Howard Moon]

You dont have to wonder.

He and the club are on record as saying this. We could have continued playing highly offensive footy that doesnt stack up in finals. I think ant555 has been saying this in the John Worsfold thread too (forgive me Ant if I'm misquoting you).

Woosh said last year, we are launching too many attacks from half back, our pressure up the field and through the midfield is not stopping enough opposition attacks. He was saying this last year, very early, even when we were winning.

He, i think Goddard and others at the club are on record as stating we have tinkered with the way we play but every team is trying to do it. More forward half pressure. As has been mentioned all over this site, we have lazy players and a sub par midfield.

Try and ignore what the media are saying. Wheately as much as i respect him as a journalist has been one of the more heinously wrong on this topic. Having a crack at the team and coach and the gameplan. Saying that we are the ONLY club trying to do it.

We arent trying to do it, but when you get smashed out of the midfield you are going to be attacking off your back line a lot. Its very simple.

we are poor on field, we are have holes of genuine concern in our list and the fitness staff and coaching group have questions over them.

This is all unrelated to the saga and is part and parcel of being a poor football team.

I suppose it may have been fool hardy to tinker the set up without fixing the hole first? (unless they thought they had plugged it with stringer and devon)

if your new set up requires you to win it from he centre but that was already your Achilles heel - it may be doomed to fail

Play to your strengths as they say?

anyhow agreed, the on field is for a different place, its been discussed everywhere.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

You dont have to wonder.

He and the club are on record as saying this. We could have continued playing highly offensive footy that doesnt stack up in finals. I think ant555 has been saying this in the John Worsfold thread too (forgive me Ant if I'm misquoting you).

Woosh said last year, we are launching too many attacks from half back, our pressure up the field and through the midfield is not stopping enough opposition attacks. He was saying this last year, very early, even when we were winning.

He, i think Goddard and others at the club are on record as stating we have tinkered with the way we play but every team is trying to do it. More forward half pressure. As has been mentioned all over this site, we have lazy players and a sub par midfield.

Try and ignore what the media are saying. Wheately as much as i respect him as a journalist has been one of the more heinously wrong on this topic. Having a crack at the team and coach and the gameplan. Saying that we are the ONLY club trying to do it.

We arent trying to do it, but when you get smashed out of the midfield you are going to be attacking off your back line a lot. Its very simple.

we are poor on field, we are have holes of genuine concern in our list and the fitness staff and coaching group have questions over them.

This is all unrelated to the saga and is part and parcel of being a poor football team.

I haven't heard any of that from Worsfold this year. Where has he said all this?

 

[BrunoV]

are we bound to accept mediocre senior players who were there?

this is why its till biting us.

There are some at the club who I'd say do think that we are bound to keep them.

It's definitely not the right attitude. If it hasn't already become an excuse to accept mediocrity, it will.

 

[Bunk Moreland]

look, i'm generally an over thinker, and I sometimes sit and extrapolate things further than they need to go sometimes but I am thinking further ahead than just now. Its more about the overarching feeling within a club, not what happens on the ground. If you have an unhappy bitter club, a scorned club still not at peace with what happened its an environment that is not going to be enjoyable for new kids coming in, development has never been our strong point anyway..that the kid of things that keeps going and going unless you can somehow put a stop to it. irrespective of how shit we were before the saga, its just another layer of stuff our club has to deal with.

like I said my style of though can not always be accurate or concise but it was just feeling I had last night when I was thinking about it

We obviously have had problems as a club, but I don't think the saga is the cause of them. It's more a symptom - a big one - than a cause.

We lost our way after the 2000 group. Sheedy and the club got arrogant I think - who could blame them, really - and stopped keeping up with the ever-changing game - something Sheedy was at the forefront of since the early 80s.

He was kept on too long, his removal and replacement was botched badly, and his imprint lasted far too long. He had too much power as an individual and "too much power" in the hands of a few continued. Evans got the main gig and gave the coaching job to his mate rather than the board and the club conducting a thorough, modern process that all currently successful clubs did.

It all blew up with the saga but I don't think it's a case of getting over it - i actually think it's what forced some changes for the better and will continue to.

We won't see an appointment like Hird again, for starters.

 

[Howard Moon]

There are some at the club who I'd say do think that we are bound to keep them.

It's definitely not the right attitude. If it hasn't already become an excuse to accept mediocrity, it will.

Further still, I reckon we may have signed people to longer term deals than what was maybe industry standard at the time due to them being involved in the saga which may end up biting us later if it already hasn't in a list management capacity

 

[BrunoV]

Further still, I reckon we may have signed people to longer term deals than what was maybe industry standard at the time due to them being involved in the saga which may end up biting us later if it already hasn't in a list management capacity

Yep. Hooker for another three years? That could really hurt if his mobility gets any worse.

He's one who I can see having a rapid decline as he become almost completely immobile.



Edit: it's not all about trading players out. As you've said, it as a lot to do with the contracts being offered and also the perceptions of the players. Do we not launch a full on assault at recruiting midfielders because of the 'All Australian' talent in our midfield?

It feels like we're forever trying to cover for the deficiencies of someone who can't run or can't defend or both. If you have no emotion connection to these players why would you bother covering for them? It doesn't make any sense.

I have a Bulldogs supporting mate who knows his stuff and, at the time it happened, he said the best thing that could have happened to the Dogs was offloading Griffen and Cooney. Sure they would still get their 30 touches a week but it was the same story of selfish football that did not fit in with what the team required and it had been a regular thing.

 

[hurlygurdy]

I think we were bound to keep the players for a few years and if that meant poor results then we had to suck it up.
I don't think anyone at the club including the players would think there is any obligation to keep those players now. Thats't done and dusted.

Regarding the OP, i kind of agree. The club has never come out and been direct about their version of events. It's a surprise and a worry. I get the feeling that there continue to be a lot of cracks painted over, all in the name of business. The financial business of the club.
I don't give a shit whether other teams supporters think our club has lost its integrity, but i give a massive shit about whether our own players think the club has no integrity. They sure don't seem to be able to find much to play for right now.

 

[Blind Turn]

I’m more concerned with the ‘Richmond’ trend;

- Premiership to start a decade (1980/2000)

- Runner-up shortly after while champions still kicking around
(1982/2001)

- Lose great clubmen due to terrible list management decisions in the following years trying to stay on top (RainesCloke/HardwickCaracella)

- Coleman medal winning century goal-kicker in premiership year has tail-end of career ruined by injury before retiring mid-decade (Roach/Lloyd)

- Luring back of the contemporary club legend to coach near the close of the decade only to have it go pear-shaped and leave him disgruntled with the club (Bartlett/Hird)

- Super-talented father-son key forward frustrates fans with what could be. Supporters hopes largely pinned on him taking club to the holy grail (Richo/Joe)

Perennial finishes in similar no-man’s-land position on the ladder draws ridicule amongst football followers (Ninth-mond/Elimination Final hoodoo)

The only conclusion that can be drawn from all this is that we should be celebrating our next premiership around 2037. Buckle up...

 

[ScrappyCoCo]

I think it has. Life tends to wear you down with time when things get hard for an extended period. Maybe there spirit has been broken marginally, but it takes 1% and you are behind the pack. There is no way to see it or measure it, but I bet when the players get older and wiser they will admit to how it affected them.

IMO there is no way they could have gone through that and came out the other side as strong. If it were 1 or 2 players it probably would not impact in the overall picture....but the numbers that went through it. The group have have fired their best shot post saga and there is a worn out look to the group.

 

[Phat Toni]

I don’t think our club will ever get over the supplements saga. I think we will still be crippled by it in 40 years’ time.

At first read I thought gee 40yrs is a long time really!?! But it did spark a thought that I've been grappling with for a while and that is what will this period do to the next generation of Bombers supporters? i.e the kids born from about 2005 onward. There could be a whole generation that get tarnished with the saga brush and get disillusioned to the point of supporting somebody else or turning away from AFL. I have 3 young kids and my eldest was flat out into the Bombers 3 years ago to the point he has 10 different bombers tops. Now days though I can't get him to watch a game let alone muster up enough interest to actually go to one to the point that we haven't gone as a family since we beat the Carltank in Rd 23 in 2016. Throw in the fact that most games are garbage to watch these days on top of the disgrace associated with the Saga and now the noncompetitive losing young Bombers supporters barley have a chance. My son is gone and his younger siblings will follow him, maybe we're just an isolated case as there is still plenty of young kids with Bombers tops walking around but it dose make me wonder if we're doing the reverse of cashing in on a premiership at the moment that might effect us further down the line.

 

[Mootsy]

I agree with Howard moon!

Mentally I think the players involved will psychologically struggle with it, Only I think we’ll recover by 2020, just because we have great new facilities and a relatively exciting list that just needs fine tuning. It’s not like we’re still at windy hill and behind the times.

Just need a remix of list and whatever else I guess.

 

[Howard Moon]

At first read I thought gee 40yrs is a long time really!?! But it did spark a thought that I've been grappling with for a while and that is what will this period do to the next generation of Bombers supporters? i.e the kids born from about 2005 onward. There could be a whole generation that get tarnished with the saga brush and get disillusioned to the point of supporting somebody else or turning away from AFL. I have 3 young kids and my eldest was flat out into the Bombers 3 years ago to the point he has 10 different bombers tops. Now days though I can't get him to watch a game let alone muster up enough interest to actually go to one to the point that we haven't gone as a family since we beat the Carltank in Rd 23 in 2016. Throw in the fact that most games are garbage to watch these days on top of the disgrace associated with the Saga and now the noncompetitive losing young Bombers supporters barley have a chance. My son is gone and his younger siblings will follow him, maybe we're just an isolated case as there is still plenty of young kids with Bombers tops walking around but it dose make me wonder if we're doing the reverse of cashing in on a premiership at the moment that might effect us further down the line.

I've lost one kid to his grandpas team, the other is on the edge

i'm powerless to stop it.

They are old enough to make their own choices.

 

[Phat Toni]

It's sad to watch isn't it? I'm a 3rd gen Bomber supporter and have spent countless amount of $$ on memberships/games/merch etc, the sad thing is all 3 of my kids will be gone, maybe from the game full stop, that type of thing will be the impact the saga has over the long term

 

[DERO]

I've lost one kid to his grandpas team, the other is on the edge

i'm powerless to stop it.

They are old enough to make their own choices.

My father in law is a Hawthorn supporter and he tried that stuff and I threatened to ban him from my house. He thought I was joking too!

 

[Duckworth]

I've lost one kid to his grandpas team, the other is on the edge

i'm powerless to stop it.

They are old enough to make their own choices.

I'm with DERO, why are you concerned with the players standing up when you won't. You are far from powerless unless that is the road you choose to take.

 

[Howard Moon]

Mark Neeld has resigned effectively immediately

There's a start.

 

[Howard Moon]

I'm with DERO, why are you concerned with the players standing up when you won't. You are far from powerless unless that is the road you choose to take.

I'm happy standing, I'm firmly red and black. It's the clubs duty to make my kids want to support them, I led them there, it's their call now.

 

[Vander18]

Interesting and thought provoking post Howard Moon. The analogy to Norm Smith is intriguing.

Personally I think the saga was actually the culmination of a malaise that crept in sometime after the 2001 GF. The club lost something soon after (not sure how soon after) that has prevented it from functioning as it should ever since. No idea what that was though.

Remember the mid-2000’s? Sheedy’s descent into madness, refusal to spend our pots of money on footy....something changed in our DNA around that time and we never recovered. We’ve been playing catch-up ever since - never at the cutting edge of how the game is played, always delivering a pale imitation of whatever successful footy likes like at a particular time. We used to do things our way...other clubs followed us.

Hird tried to get our mojo back but may have, I think we can say in hindsight, “over-corrected.”

 

[windyhill]

It will always be with us. The fine didn't worry me, being booted out of the finals didn't worry me ( although embarrassing, we were zero chance of beating Richmond, no finals win since '04 teaches you this)
What worried me, and still does, was missing draft picks and directly losing players to other clubs because of it.
That was the kicker, and we can see the mess it's created. People will always bring it up. Very different to w.coast, they were " boys being boys" A completely different situation to EFC. Hird and the gang " went there" we had skinny little boys not suited to afl football. We have gone full circle, we've recruited players who are the incorrect body shape to play this game as its currently played.
Until Ryder, Piggy, carlisle etc retire, I will still be reminded of hird and the gang, bloody hell, even Melk is playing brilliantly.