Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

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Part I:

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Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:
  • direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
  • deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
  • abuse.
  • attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
  • If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
  • Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.
Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

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Thanks all.
Play nicely, all.
 
Last edited:
Oct 19, 2020
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Israel declares state of war

In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has declared a state of war.

β€œA number of terrorists have infiltrated into Israeli territory from the Gaza Strip,” the military said in a statement, adding that residents in the area surrounding the Gaza Strip had been told to stay in their homes.
β€œThe Israel Defence Forces will defend Israeli civilians and the Hamas terrorist organisation will pay heavy price for its actions,” it said.

7 communities under Hamas control:
Israels’s channel 13 is reporting that 7 communities are under Hamas control.

These include Sderot, Nahal Oz, Kfar Haza, Magen, Sufa Beheri and general command of Gaza.

Guardian
 
Hamas don't have the capability to eradicate Israel. Israel are doing a pretty good job of destroying Gaza, not just Hamas, in retaliation.

There's the barbarity of the October 7 attack, which no one denies was horrific.
But it was never going to go close to the definition of a genocide - a sustained action to destroy an entire nation.
But Israeli uber-zionists aren't interested in definitions. They are intent in destroying Gaza, and not averse to targeting the West Bank either.

Does the 7 October attack, which I completely condemn by the way, justify the response of killing Gazans indiscriminately in what is a text book genocide if we want to be clinical, and ignore the inhumanity and morally-bereft actions of the IDF, knowingly killing 1,000s of non-combatants as well as their own civilians, Christian bystanders, a foreign diplomat and journalists?

The discussion of whether or not the Hamas attack was genocide was opened here by QuietB and I responded. The reason I responded the way I did was because I'd seen it mentioned in relation to the Hamas attack and it was challenging to reconcile it as genocide. It does however, fit. That the attack was on a smaller scale and with lesser weaponry, is irrelevant. A genocide can be committed with machetes.

To your question of whether the October 7 attack justifies Israel's response, no of course not.
 

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So the USA committed genocide at the end of WW2 in Japan, with the dropping of two A-bombs?

"In part" is a very grey and tenuous term, isn't it? How is it even measured? Is the terrorist attack in Melbourne's CBD a few years ago 'genocide?

While the Hamas attack on October 7 meets some of that criteria to a degree, Israel's response meets all of it. In fact it goes beyond that definition.
 
The dropping of two nuclear bombs on Japan ENDED WW2.

But still meets the strict definition that you posted. This is descending into semantics. Do you really believe a machete attack qualifies as genocide regardless of the circumstances?
 
Article II In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Article III The following acts shall be punishable:

(a) Genocide;

(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;

(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;

So Hamas did (a) and (b), which are pretty broad, murder and harm.

Israel are doing a, b, c, d and e. - All of the above.

I'm not sure this post makes the point you're trying to make. I'm happy to label Hamas as having genocidal ideology. I also think Israel has genocidal ideology and is actually undertaking it, which is worse.
 
So Hamas did (a) and (b), which are pretty broad, murder and harm.

Israel are doing a, b, c, d and e. - All of the above.

I'm not sure this post makes the point you're trying to make. I'm happy to label Hamas as having genocidal ideology. I also think Israel has genocidal ideology and is actually undertaking it, which is worse.

It goes to many in Israel feeling an existential threat when it becomes right or wrong, 'them or us'.

Maybe look again at what Hamas actually did on October 7, they do tick all the boxes including removing children to their group and specific, targeted sexual attacks on women, pregnant women and the unborn.
 
It goes to many in Israel feeling an existential threat when it becomes right or wrong, 'them or us'.

Maybe look again at what Hamas actually did on October 7, they do tick all the boxes including removing children to their group and specific, targeted sexual attacks on women, pregnant women and the unborn.
Israel are targeting hospitals (and finally recently found one who admitted to having Hamas members there, under interrogation), displacing everyone and left kids to die in hospitals.

I'm not defending what Hamas did. But every time I mention what Israel did, you change it to "remember what Hamas did".

Which I do. it's just I don't excuse genocide by one side because of genocide by the other. I would note that Israel were committing their acts of genocide on your list before October 7th as well.

I don't know if you can't bring yourself to admit, or don't want to believe what Israel is doing despite overwhelming evidence.
 
Owen you know I respect your point of view, except this one's a bit off.

Is calling the Hamas attack a genocide, really a hardcore pro-Zionist talking point? Or is it true?

I don't believe it goes anywhere close to the level required to be classified as genocide, attempted or otherwise. So yes, it's a pro-Zionist talking point.

Would Hamas commit genocide if they had the capability to do so - like Israel is doing? Very possible. But Hamas don't and there's little likelihood that they will ever, have the capability to actually do it. Unlike Israel who legitimately can do it.

The argument that Israel were under an existential threat, that a genocide was attempted or committed by Hamas, or that it is in any way similar to Kristallnacht is simply pro-Israel propaganda, and therefore pro-Zionist propaganda. Israel however are literally ticking the boxes right now against the Palestinian people.

You're far too smart to be falling for those tricks.
 
Genocide against the Tutsi in Rwanda an example

Disingenuous response, and I'm sure you know it.

Was the 2018 Melbourne CBD attack an act of genocide?

Is one person with a machete performing genocide?

Refer to Saint's post 12,470. Your posts are constantly framed as 'whataboutism', and the underlying inference that Israel's current actions are justified by an existential threat to a nation from a militant group.

Anyway, this is going round in circles, and I feel like I'm wasting my time, so I'm happy to leave our exchange there.
 

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I don't believe it goes anywhere close to the level required to be classified as genocide, attempted or otherwise. So yes, it's a pro-Zionist talking point.

Would Hamas commit genocide if they had the capability to do so - like Israel is doing? Very possible. But Hamas don't and there's little likelihood that they will ever, have the capability to actually do it. Unlike Israel who legitimately can do it.

The argument that Israel were under an existential threat, that a genocide was attempted or committed by Hamas, or that it is in any way similar to Kristallnacht is simply pro-Israel propaganda, and therefore pro-Zionist propaganda. Israel however are literally ticking the boxes right now against the Palestinian people.

You're far too smart to be falling for those tricks.

I'm not an Israeli nor a Zionist and it's not a matter of falling for their tricks, I can think for myself. I know the Jews from childhood, Muslims from childhood that I consider family and I know Islamic extremism personally and far better than I should or am comfortable with.

I don't believe it goes anywhere close to the level required to be classified as genocide, attempted or otherwise. So yes, it's a pro-Zionist talking point.

It's a legitimate talking point if that's how it's genuinely been perceived. Over 200,000 Israelis have left the area where Hamas attacked. Before anybody jumps on me to counter with but ... two million Palestinians, yes I know.

The argument that Israel were under an existential threat, that a genocide was attempted or committed by Hamas, or that it is in any way similar to Kristallnacht is simply pro-Israel propaganda, and therefore pro-Zionist propaganda. Israel however are literally ticking the boxes right now against the Palestinian people.

I disagree, for the reasons already offered.

You're far too smart to be falling for those tricks.

I'm not falling for your tricks Owen. ;)
 
Disingenuous response, and I'm sure you know it.

Was the 2018 Melbourne CBD attack an act of genocide?

Is one person with a machete performing genocide?

Refer to Saint's post 12,470. Your posts are constantly framed as 'whataboutism', and the underlying inference that Israel's current actions are justified by an existential threat to a nation from a militant group.

Anyway, this is going round in circles, and I feel like I'm wasting my time, so I'm happy to leave our exchange there.

It wasn't disingenuous, I gave you a direct response with an example how how machetes could be used to genocide after you suggested they couldn't be. :shrug:

There's a bit of pot kettle in your response as well but I'll move on.
 
The dropping of two nuclear bombs on Japan ENDED WW2.
So if Israel were to drop a nuke or two on Gaza, or a series of massive non-nuke blasts and flooded (seawater) Gaza that killed just about everybody in Gaza (short, medium or long term effects) that ended the war against Hamas, that would not be genocide and be ok as long as it ended the war against Hamas?
 
So if Israel were to drop a nuke or two on Gaza, or a series of massive non-nuke blasts and flooded (seawater) Gaza that killed just about everybody in Gaza (short, medium or long term effects) that ended the war against Hamas, that would not be genocide and be ok as long as it ended the war against Hamas?

I don't know, I haven't got that far in to it all yet. Malifice might be more across this, and always says it better.
 
Really?

This is from the UN - and I believe Jews invented the word after WWII and helped in forming the definition - note β€œin whole or in part”. a, b and c is not even debatable.

View attachment 1874946

WITH INTENT

Genocide needs to be proven as a war crime. It is largely based around proving intent.

Ethnic Cleaning typically doesn't need to be proven.

It is incredibly important you educate yourself on the difference between the two.
 
How many need to die before you think its more than a "vibe", do you have a magic genocide number? You can't seriously think Israel are seriously trying to "get Hamas".

When genocide is proven?

It needs to be established that Israel are intentionally killing Palestinian civilians. At this point in time I don't believe they are. I'd much more believe that Israel couldn't give a shit who they kill whilst targeting Hamas thus Ethnic Cleansing is occurring.

TLDR I believe Israel are intending to kill hamas, they simply are not putting the required effort in to spare civilian lives. it's not like this is a good thing either. This however is not genocide.
 
When is genocide proven?

it needs to be established that Israel and intentionally killing Palestinian civilians. At this point in time I don't believe they are. I'd much more believe that Israel couldn't give a s**t who they kill whilst targeting Hamas thus Ethnic Cleansing is occurring.

So, 20,000+ accidental deaths. That’s very convenient for the ethnic cleansing regime, dont you think?
 
So, 20,000+ accidental deaths. That’s very convenient for the ethnic cleansing regime, don't you think?

Convenient is not the word i would use.........

despicable would be closer to it.
 
When genocide is proven?

It needs to be established that Israel are intentionally killing Palestinian civilians.

No, that's an incorrect statement of the law.

What needs to be proven is:

In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
  1. Killing members of the group;
  2. Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
  3. Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
  4. Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group.
  5. Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group

United Nations Office on Genocide Prevention and the Responsibility to Protect

It's not just killing.
 
So, 20,000+ accidental deaths. That’s very convenient for the ethnic cleansing regime, dont you think?

For context the siege of Stalingrad in WW2 caused 40,000 civilian deaths, and between 1 and 2 million military dead.

Even using low estimates, 40,000 dead civilians for 1 million dead soldiers.

And one of the combatants was the Wehrmacht and the Waffen SS. The other was the Red Army. There were over 2 million soldiers involved, and thousands of tanks, artillery pieces and aircraft.

Battle of Stalingrad - Wikipedia

By contrast the civilian death toll in Gaza is at least 61 percent. The overwhelming majority of the 20,000 casualties in Gaza so far have been women and children.
 
yes, it's not just killing, but it all still resolves around intent.

It does.

Do you honestly think that Israel, over the majority of the past 70 years of its existence, has not intended to reclaim all of historic Palestine from the Arab Muslims, by virtue of annexations, occupations, apartheid, persecutions and military action?

Or have the millions of Arab Muslim refugees, hundreds of thousands of Arab Muslims dead, Jewish settlements springing up everywhere etc just been a co-incidence?

Lets be real here. I said above that if Hamas leadership had a button they could push that would eradicate every single Jewish person in historic Palestine with zero repercussions, they'd push it.

Do you think the Israeli leadership is any different?
 
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