Mid East Israel declare war after Hamas attack II

[Gethelred]

Part I:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack.

Breaking the law. 'International humanitarian law prohibits a siege of Gaza, UN human rights commissioner says From CNN's Eve Brennan Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in Geneva, Switzerland, on September 7, 2018. Ravina Shamdasani speaks at the Palais des Nations in...

www.bigfooty.com

Thread Rules:

Alright.

I recognise that this is a fraught topic for any number of you posting here. Some of you will have family in Israel or Palestine. Some of you will have connections to either side of the conflict. What you need to understand is that this site has rules governing posting standards and the appropriate way to talk to other posters, and you will abide by them.

How this interacts with this thread is that the following will result in your post being deleted, with a recurrence of the same behaviour resulting in (depending on severity) a threadban for a week and a day off:

• direct labelling of someone as anti-semitic or a terrorist sympathiser for posting that is merely critical of Israel's response over time. I appreciate that Israel has the right to defend themselves from violence, but that does not mean that Israel has carte blanche to attack disproportionately towards people under their care.
• deliberate goading or flippant responses, designed to get people reacting to your posting emotionally.
• abuse.
• attempts to turn this into a Left vs Right shitfight.
• If I see the word 'Nazi' in here, you had better be able to justify it in the post you're making and the comparison had better be apt. Godwin's law is in full effect for the purposes of this thread; if you refer to Nazis, you've lost whatever argument you're involved in.
• Any defense of Hamas' actions on the basis of justification. There's no justification for genocide, regardless of whether or not they have the power to do so.

Please recognise that this is a difficult time for all involved, and some level of sensitivity is absolutely required to permit discussion to flow. From time to time, mods will reach out to specific posters and do some welfare checks; we may even give posters who get a bit too involved some days off to give people some time to cool down. This is not a reflection on you as a poster, merely that this is an intense subject.

I get that this is a fairly intense topic about which opinion can diverge rather significantly. If you feel you cannot be respectful in your disagreement with another poster, it is frequently better to refuse to engage than it is to take up the call.

From this point, any poster who finds themselves directly insulting another poster will find themselves receiving a threadban and an infraction, with each subsequent reoccurance resulting in steadily more points added to your account.

If you accumulate enough points in a 12 month period you will lose privileges:

5 points - 1 week off.
10 points - 2 weeks off
15 points - 3 weeks off
20 points - Account banned.

It has also become apparent that this needs to be said: just because someone moderates a part of this forum that isn't on Int Pol or the SRP does not hold them to a different standard of posting than anyone else. All of us were posters first, and we are allowed to hold opinions on this and share them on this forum.

Treat each other with the respect each of you deserve.

Thanks all.

Play nicely, all.

 

[Saint]

Look at this. The only good answer here is... Demonic! You can't solve hate with bombs and guns and slaughter alone. You can't surrender your own humanity, as all ethno-religious supremacist groups do by definition, and then expect a 'just' and peaceful outcome to conflict.

I've mentioned it before and I will again now. The peace accord in Northern Ireland known as the 'Good Friday Agreement' only came about because the British finally came round to acknowledging the civil rights of all parties and removing offensive symbology such as the British Crown from positions of prominance on the badges of the provincial police forces.

Solving the riddle of Palestine/Israel means a surrender to a common humanity, not a rejection of it. A surrender on all sides.

Yes, both sides will have to give up something that they consider "theirs'.

But nobody is able/willing to make Israel give up anything. That pressure has to come externally, but they're protected by the US in both the UN and militarily and economically.

In 30 years, Israel have taken, taken, taken, and even now, there's nothing stopping them. If they continue down this path, the terrorism will get worse before it gets better. We'll be back to global terrorism by all of the Arab world against Israel.

 

[Blue1980]

It goes to many in Israel feeling an existential threat when it becomes right or wrong, 'them or us'.

Maybe look again at what Hamas actually did on October 7, they do tick all the boxes including removing children to their group and specific, targeted sexual attacks on women, pregnant women and the unborn.

That could be said about any group of people who have been wronged in the past. The Holocaust happening doesn’t give Israel do to whatever the f they like with impunity forever.

The same logic could apply to Palestinians if they do something similar to another group of people somewhere else down the line.

 

[Blue1980]

This is really disappointing.

Perhaps it’s because of Israels poor record on human rights and not bias.

This is like ignoring all evidence something is happening and then claiming years later, no one told me.

It’s unfair that facts and reality have an anti Israel bias.

 

[Saint]

19 Israeli Prison guards being investigated for the death of a Palestinian prisoner amid signs of "severe violence".

Hamas hostages get better treatment than this. How about both sides just return all the people they've got in custody who they can't charge with a crime?

19 guards suspected of assaulting security prisoner who died in Israeli prison

Signs of Severe Violence Were Found on the Body of the Prisoner, Yet Despite the Autopsy, It Couldn't Be Determined Whether the Death Resulted Directly From Violence. The Prisoner, a 38-year-old From Qalqilya, a Palestinian City in the West Bank, Died on November 18

www.haaretz.com

 

[Blue1980]

They weren't the only peoples to be exterminated through the holocaust if the first group to be targeted, so they don't have a monopoly on it. They see themselves as the record keepers and the canary in the coal mine.

Are they completely delusional if they understand that Hamas expressed aims is to destroy Israel, rid the land of every Jew and place the region under Islamic rule? You know what that means.

Do the people who received video recordings in their whatsapp group of their sons and daughters being tortured and murdered by Hamas on October 7 to be called delusional if they perceive an existential threat? I wouldn't do it, I'd try something else.

I'm not defending Israel for what they're doing now.

You’re talking about emotional reactions to war, and people get blood lust no doubt. As has been mentioned in this thread a majority of Americans wanted the whole Japanese race exterminated (!) in WWII, it brings out the worst in people’s impulses.

On a micro level in modern societies if someone kills someone else, that doesn’t mean you can just go kill the killer with impunity, that would be considered backward eye for an eye type law. Why is this concept so different in war? People seem to give countries a free pass for stuff like this. (This is not suggesting to do nothing mind you, ive said numerous times do a special military opps to target actual Hamas).

I’m sure many Americans felt they were under existential threat after 9/11, much of the western world did.

 

[Blue1980]

He'll just call it anti-semitism like he calls everything else anti-semitism.

In 10 years, when the new resistance to occupation force emerges in Gaza. There's going to be a whole generation of people who say "yeah, well Israel did attempt genocide in 2023 and the Holocaust was 100 years ago."

This overblow ill-considered, terribly unsuccessful campaign will lose them a generation of potential support around the world. Why exactly would arab nations want to normalise relationships with Israel, if Israel are a pariah everywhere except the US, and even the US has at least slightly downgraded its support from fanatical to slightly less fanatical.

This is pretty much Israel

 

[Saint]

Also, it seems like they found a bunch of tunnels and underground bunkers and meeting rooms.

And instead of being under hospitals or schools, they were under properties under the name of the leader of Hamas Yahya Sinwar.

So they evacuated and attacked the hospitals for nothing and found the bunkers exactly where the bunkers in any other nation would be (under the President's house). Do Israel even have an intelligence unit any more?

IDF uncovers Hamas 'nerve center' below opulent Gaza neighborhood

Military unearths massive underground complex including offices and lecture halls, with tunnels leading to houses of prominent Hamas leaders including Yahya Sinwar and Mohammed Deif

www.ynetnews.com

 

[Chief]

It was the IDF just acting on the basis of "we put our command centres under schools so they MUST be".

 

[PieLebo87]

IfNotNowOrg




except it wasn’t an excuse in the past. despite the lies and deception of the powerful israel lobby, most knew of the inhumanity of the occupation.

This is sickening to see

In Khan Yunis, which is southern Gaza. Didn’t the Israeli forces tell the citizens to move south of Gaza to avoid being casualties?

How is this allowed to happen? Where are the people here who were saying they are protecting the citizens by telling them to move south?

I can’t believe people still believe this has anything to do with Hamas. Imagine propping up a terror organisation, effectively screwing up your own defences and letting them breach your defence, then indiscriminately bombing an entire population afterwards. How are people still defending this?

 

[Kurve]

He'll just call it anti-semitism like he calls everything else anti-semitism.

I've never understood the hatred for the Jews as I've never understood the hatred for black people but I know it's there. As a blonde Scot/Aus with light eyes, my skin tans fast to really dark and I've been misidentified in far north Queensland as Aboriginal twice when I'm wearing sunnies, and I felt it.

If a black or brown person tells me something is racist, I may or may not think the thing is racist but I wouldn't tell them it's not. Same with anti-semitism. IMO.

I rarely listen to Alan Dershowitz. He'll be gone soon, at 85yo if old age doesn't get him, the Epstein files or Mossad might.

 

[Muddiemoose]

It was the IDF just acting on the basis of "we put our command centres under schools so they MUST be".

They used ambulances in the past to transport weapons… Obviously the best solution to sort that out is to destroy all the ambulances just in case

 

[schneebly111]

They would rip up or suspend the five eyes intelligence pact, ANZUS, and AUKUS, and the E-3 Visa plus the Free Trade agreement we have with them. Joint security operations would cease.

Is that a bad thing? We could cope. And who gives a f about E-3 visas, who’d want to go and work in the corporate slavery of the US employment market?

Why on Earth would you piss off the world's foremost military, cultural and economic power and our strongest ally by several thousands of orders of magnitude?

Because there’s a better option closer by.

New Zealand wouldn't let their nuclear ships enter their waters and look what happened to them.

Absolutely nothing?

 

[candyapple]

Hamas thanks Albo

Hamas thanks Canada for backing ceasefire in Gaza: 'We welcome these developments'

In a video statement, Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad thanked Canada, Australia and New Zealand for backing a ceasefire in Gaza

nationalpost.com

 

[Kurve]

Here's what Ghazi Hamad said, bear in mind that in Canada and Australia Hamas is formally listed as a terrorist organisation and that Ghazi Hamad has said openly, that October 7 style of attacks will be repeated over and over until Israel is annihilated.

 

[rank and file]

This is pretty much Israel

Jerry over there now doing his bit for the hostages.
Took his family over there in 2018 to Israel's version of Disneyland.

 

[Freomaniac]

So if Israel were to drop a nuke or two on Gaza, or a series of massive non-nuke blasts and flooded (seawater) Gaza that killed just about everybody in Gaza (short, medium or long term effects) that ended the war against Hamas, that would not be genocide and be ok as long as it ended the war against Hamas?

For everyone's sake I hope nuclear weapons are not involved in this.

I am not a supporter of either Israel or Palestine.

Palestinian people want their own land or country to rule and want peace.

On the other hand, Israel finally got that small patch of land to call a country. They want peace too.

Unfortunately for Israel, they have some countries surrounding them that each are Muslim community dominated that want Israel or the Jews wiped off the face of the Earth

 

[Malifice]

Because there’s a better option closer by.

Who?

 

[Kurve]

Hamas thanks Albo

Hamas thanks Canada for backing ceasefire in Gaza: 'We welcome these developments'

In a video statement, Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad thanked Canada, Australia and New Zealand for backing a ceasefire in Gaza

nationalpost.com

Somewhere in here I'd posted that it isn't a L/R thing but we're now seeing here in Australia, that it is. The right wing will take full advantage of this.

Somewhere else I'd said that the left best get their messaging and positioning on this right, or face the consequences down the track.

A heap of people protesting in the streets as we saw through covid with anti vaxxers and freedom movements making a lot of noise, doesn't translate to votes. The noise the Free Palestine movement is making, might not either.

 

[sdfc]

For everyone's sake I hope nuclear weapons are not involved in this.

I am not a supporter of either Israel or Palestine.

Palestinian people want their own land or country to rule and want peace.

On the other hand, Israel finally got that small patch of land to call a country. They want peace too.

Unfortunately for Israel, they have some countries surrounding them that each are Muslim community dominated that want Israel or the Jews wiped off the face of the Earth

Israel has and continues to take steps to guarantee there can be no viable Palestinian state. Their plan is to force the Palestinians leave or live on reservations.

 

[leon123]

Somewhere in here I'd posted that it isn't a L/R thing but we're now seeing here in Australia, that it is. The right wing will take full advantage of this.

Somewhere else I'd said that the left best get their messaging and positioning on this right, or face the consequences down the track.

A heap of people protesting in the streets as we saw through covid with anti vaxxers and freedom movements making a lot of noise, doesn't translate to votes. The noise the Free Palestine movement is making, might not either.

Im a slow learner, ill admit, i had to read that twice.

What is your point, what are you trying to say... genuine question

 

[DangerousD]

Thats great in principle. But it is not how the world works.

The reality is, we are heavily influenced and are quite literally at times told what to do by the US - that's not going to change anytime soon - expecting it to, is the definition of insanity.

Australia does not have F35A fighters sitting in our hangars because we are allowed to do what we want.

People need a serious reality check of where Australia sits in the global pecking order. It's down the bottom.

I think i have a good grasp on where Australia sits, i also think a country like the USA wont abandon decades of friendship and co-operation if its told no from time to time and there is many ways one can say no.

Im not saying abandon our friendship and support but if the US decides tomorrow that they will nuke 5 or 6 countries, we can’t support it because we are buddies, there needs to be a line somewhere.

F35A fighters, nuclear subs or whatever the US decide to give us is for their benefit more than ours, if we have to use this stuff in the future, it will be because they dragged us in to a situation where we had to use them, most of this stuff i see as being a con.

Like selling a solution to a problem that doesn’t exist, creating enemies where there is none.

 

[DangerousD]

Somewhere in here I'd posted that it isn't a L/R thing but we're now seeing here in Australia, that it is. The right wing will take full advantage of this.

I could cure cancer tomorrow and it would turn in to a left vs right thing.

Solar panels left vs right
Electric cars left vs right
Trains left vs right
Roads left vs right
Racism left vs right
Lib and labour left vs right
Drug testing left vs right

Literally everything will turn in to left vs right, its nonsense.

 

[candyapple]

Israel has and continues to take steps to guarantee there can be no viable Palestinian state. Their plan is to force the Palestinians leave or live on reservations.

Why would Israel want a Palestinian state when its current population largely support their destruction and murder?

 

[Chief]

If they levelled my city after decades of oppression, I'd probably hate them too.