Ive seen enough!!!!!

[murphster]

Twice in the first quarter yesterday the ball was kicked on top of Eddie's head with a taller opponent standing right behind him instead of putting it out in front so he could run onto it, the bad part is it was Lance and Stevens that kicked those 2 and then the same thing was done to Murphy on the wing by Houligan, doesn't the coaching staff at Carlton teach them to put it out in front of a player instead of on his head, it would seem not considering we do it nine times out of ten especially when going into the forward line, how is it that 2 of our youngest players in Murphy and Simpson are the only 2 that actually kick it to the forwards advantage and the only two that can hit a target at any distance.
Our forwards would kick twice as many goals if they were allowed to run onto the ball instead of trying to mark balls kicked on top of there heads, yet we continue to do it week after week, how can Pagan not see this and do something about it, astounding really.

Why he does not give Eddie a run in the middle is baffling to say the least, he has done well when put there for short periods before but has almost never been back in there since, amazing.
Our senior midfielders need to be dropped until they learn a defensive side to there game specifically Stevens and Houlihan who had exactly 0 tackles between them yesterday and who continually gather easy possesions and waste the ball when they do have it with shoddy kicking and handballing, Scotland who used to be the worst in these areas is now a great example of how to play defensively as well as attacking, Prendergast has actually been pretty good in the centre bounces with his big body and deserves to play more than the other 2 do, we should play Walker, Murphy, Simpson, Prendergast, Bentick, Betts, Wiggens at centre square bounces instead of Stevens or Houligan who has quickly reverted back to his lazy old self again just like every other year where he tries for the first few weeks and then gives up.

We are losing games in the middle of the ground through a combination of no hard running when going forward and even less when flooding back leaving the hard running opposition to do as they please, and it is the senior players that are the worst offenders at both of these essential attributes in todays game, if this does not improve i would look at trading both Stevens and Houligan at years end and getting some hard running young midfielders that are willing to give there all going forward and most importantly when going back, when 2 young players like Simpson and Murphy are leading the way in this department it says a lot about the quality of our senior players and the effort they display, our team would be much better off with 2 more Simpsons rather than the other 2.

Simon Wiggens looks as if he has finally come of age at least i hope so as his attack on the ball and his pace and ability to run the lines will be a massive plus for Carlton, his disposal seems to have improved some what and should be able to be used as a hard running half back, if his form continues, which we are desperate for at the moment as it frees up Walker and the like to play more attacking roles, as i said before Prender's big body in at the centre bounces is very handy and if he can improve his disposal he can certainly get enough of the ball to hurt the opposition at the clearances, so should be persisted with for the moment.

Pagans use of the players on the bench is a disgrace he continually gives them minimum game time and uses them as stop gaps rather than part of the team, he gave Eddie 59min out of 117min and in that time Eddie kicked 2goals 1 behind laid 4 tackles got 2 free kicks and all of that from just 4 possessions now that is a hard worker that was not utilised properly by Pagan, he gave Sporn more time on the ground than Eddie and Sporn had 6poss 2 marks 1 clanger, amazing Dennis.
Bentick who also had less time than Sporn had 12 poss 5 marks 2 clearances 3 tackles kicked inside 50 4 times and although he did have 3 clangers certainly should have had more game time, Houligan who had double the game time and got 25 touches was less effective than Betts or Bentick IMO yet played nearly the whole game, why?
Longmuir before being injured was given 26min, how can someone come into a team and make an impact without being given the chance to do so, if as he says he is implementing a youth policy these players should come into the side and be given a specific task and be left to do it for at least a whole uninterupted quarter not dragged to the bench every 5 minutes, give them a chance to get into the flow of the game before yanking them out again.
As far as i am concerned Pagan has no idea how to manage our young players or how to utilise the bench in an effective manner.

Players that have played well in the VFL are used out of position by Pagan when they come in to the senior side and then they struggle and are dropped due to Pagans lack of insight. Our players are not as bad as Pagan makes them look he does not play them to there strengths, his style of play would make Adelaide look second rate and it is this style that has seen us go backwards in the last 3 years, a different set up and different game plan initiated by a more forward thinking and flexible coach would see a vast improvement from the majority of our list.

How does Barry Mitchell get so much out of these players at VFL level and yet when they step up they are made to look hopeless, it is not that much of a leap, players at other clubs that fire at VFL level come into the AFL and do reasonably well for there respective clubs so why don't ours, it is simple PAGAN has no player management skills to speak of and is using an un workable game structure week after week and just does not seem to have the answer, our kicking at AFL level is worse than the kicking at the Bullants, even our set shots for goal are worse this year than last, what are they teaching them.

The club has to bite the bullet and install Mitchell as caretaker coach for the remainder of the year, it will be less expensive to work out a severence payment for Pagan now rather than waiting and suffering another drop in Memberships next year and the loss of more Sponsors through a totally inept style of play that gives the supporters and sponsors no hope what so ever. I can't in good concience support someone that has changed nothing between round 1 and round 10 it is just the same mistakes every week whether it be at the selection table or on the field, you can not instill confidence in players by having them repeating the same mistakes over and over and over.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Twice in the first quarter yesterday the ball was kicked on top of Eddie's head with a taller opponent standing right behind him instead of putting it out in front so he could run onto it, the bad part is it was Lance and Stevens that kicked those 2 and then the same thing was done to Murphy on the wing by Houligan, doesn't the coaching staff at Carlton teach them to put it out in front of a player instead of on his head, it would seem not considering we do it nine times out of ten especially when going into the forward line, how is it that 2 of our youngest players in Murphy and Simpson are the only 2 that actually kick it to the forwards advantage and the only two that can hit a target at any distance

If it's any consolation, I watched players like Ratten, Campo, and Bradley do this to Whitnall and Hammil all day in the 1999 grand final. Which suggests it has little to do with talent, and more to do with composure.

And a lot of that comes from confidence. Which we don't have. Any.

 

[SA Blue]

Mate I fully understand your frustration. I really thought we were a chance yesterday and to blown away by so much is very frustrating.

Unlike yourself I don't see the main problem as player management, but rather a combination of lack of talent(list), loss of confidence and lack of team hardness. I am sure there are other factors as well but that is what stands out to me. I agree with AlecDuncan that it is probably more to do with composure and confidence rather than coaching.

As for sacking Pagan, and putting in Mitchell, we really aren't in a position to do so. It would cost the clubs hundreds of thousands, to not only pay him out fo the contract but to then pay the replacement. I am not convinced any increase in members would make this up.

Our position raises questions about what we should concentrate on in the remainder of the year and in the following pre season. Do we continue bulking up the players, do we have skills blitz like Wallace did when he first came to Bulldogs, do we spend money on something like the Pies with their trip to Arizona to build team confidence, do we jsut play the kids reagardless of the result?. Needless to say it is all of them, but I would be interested in anyone's thoughts.

I can't wait for the time when I can come to work, or be at the pub and be the arrogance Carlton supporter again!

 

[FieryNayta]

If it's any consolation, I watched players like Ratten, Campo, and Bradley do this to Whitnall and Hammil all day in the 1999 grand final. Which suggests it has little to do with talent, and more to do with composure.

And a lot of that comes from confidence. Which we don't have. Any.

I see your point that confidence is a massive driving force in todays competition, and our players lack it to large extent.

But players like Campo, Ratten and Bradley were all stars of our club for more than a decade each.

cant really compare these names with scotland, houlihan and even stevens, who are finding it hard to rub more than a couple of decent games together in a row. They all try hard, but not always on the same day, and despite getting plenty of ball, arent being damaging enough with it.

I agree with murphster in that simpson and murphy are our best at delivering the footy. A good sign for years to come isnt it? They will lead the way and raise the bar for our lousy disposal in coming seasons.

 

[Blah Blah Blue]

Murphster, pretty fair assessment however cannot agree with getting rid of Dennis at this point. Sure I definately believe use of bench is not proactive and there are some in VFL [Russell] who just have to play Seniors.
Houlihan. Gee I have defended him so much over the years however even I cannot see his value given his current level of desperation. So much talent, so little output. ie hard output.
When he accelerates he moves but he just seems to want to ''coast''. I think he thinks he's Rhys. Rhys could look as though he was in slo mo, Ryan cannot.
I want so desperately for him to be a key for us however if he continues the current trend then, yes, he should be up for trade.
Ryan, if you happen to read this, PLEASE show us what you ncan do!

 

[Blah Blah Blue]

and whilst waiting for Jeramias to start the #6 thread I cannot express how great it is to see how Kade Simpson is going this year (not to mention how he finished 2005)
Another good pre season, build up a bit more, gee he will be a long term player for us.

 

[Jeremias]

murphster, i agree with your post, except for the point on longmuir. he was injured early on in the second quarter, and 26 minutes for a quarter and a bit of possible game time is FINE.

Seriously, I understand the frustration of dome for the coaching staff not giving kids sufficient game time, but that is taking it to a ridiculous level.

 

[audas]

Mate there all AFL footy players, any other day, any other coach and it wouldnt be a loss. Its the coach. Pure and simple. We are being pumped. Reamed. Rimmed. Polaxed. Carted. Other coaches and players would look at the fixture, see the name "carlton" and rub their hands with glee.......

Other coaches know exactly what pagan is about, know exactly how to beat him, he is the laughing stock of the afl. DUFUS.

Heres a challenge for you Pagan. Do something. Seriously, anything will do. Teach the boys a square dance and lets see them do it. At least then I know that a) they are listening to you and b) you actually speak english.

Loved your excuse this week though. You ran out of excuses.....

How ironic, but it was bound to happen eventually. Now we can all throw our hands up in the air.

 

[WTTF]

Mate there all AFL footy players, any other day, any other coach and it wouldnt be a loss. Its the coach. Pure and simple. We are being pumped. Reamed. Rimmed. Polaxed. Carted. Other coaches and players would look at the fixture, see the name "carlton" and rub their hands with glee.......

Other coaches know exactly what pagan is about, know exactly how to beat him, he is the laughing stock of the afl. DUFUS.

Heres a challenge for you Pagan. Do something. Seriously, anything will do. Teach the boys a square dance and lets see them do it. At least then I know that a) they are listening to you and b) you actually speak english.

Loved your excuse this week though. You ran out of excuses.....

How ironic, but it was bound to happen eventually. Now we can all throw our hands up in the air.

So, in actual fact you are suggesting that our players are more than capable of delivering right now if anybody other than PAGAN was coaching them.

You are dillusional if you think PAGAN is the problem.

Take a good hard unbiased look at our list and nominate how many would get a game at most other clubs week in week out.............If you are fair dinkum in your assessment of our list, then you'll be lucky to reach double figures.

Therein lies our problem...........not the coach.

 

[bibi01]

Mate there all AFL footy players, any other day, any other coach and it wouldnt be a loss. Its the coach. Pure and simple. We are being pumped. Reamed. Rimmed. Polaxed. Carted. Other coaches and players would look at the fixture, see the name "carlton" and rub their hands with glee.......

Other coaches know exactly what pagan is about, know exactly how to beat him, he is the laughing stock of the afl. DUFUS.

Heres a challenge for you Pagan. Do something. Seriously, anything will do. Teach the boys a square dance and lets see them do it. At least then I know that a) they are listening to you and b) you actually speak english.

Loved your excuse this week though. You ran out of excuses.....

How ironic, but it was bound to happen eventually. Now we can all throw our hands up in the air.

why is it always the coach to blame?

don't these players have self pride
don't they have pride in playing for the GREAT navy blue of Carlton

regardless of who is coaching the 22 players picked each week represent Carlton, not the coach.

 

[The Grover]

Well said Murphster, I was swearing my head off within 10 minutes. I remember those 2 kicks to eddie, although I didn't notice when he got taken off.

Eddie is our only elusive crumming forward, he can get results if the ball is kicked in quickly & he puts great pressure on when he hasn't got ball.

I think Wiggins could be a good fast leading forward, he would go well at the Bulldogs with their game plan. His kicking is not great but he could improve dramatically as we get better players into our club.

Remember Brad Pearce only average player but did well in a good team.

I would not discount trading Houlihan & Stevens if a good trade came up.

Lets hope we get someone better than McLaren in this PSD.

Let Denis see out his contract, then see who's available.

 

[WTTF]

Remember Brad Pearce only average player but did well in a good team.

Way off the mark here.

Brad Pearce's knees were stuffed from the time he was about 18 years old. Bone on bone on one knee and just about the same on the other. He very rarely trained and as a result struggled to get match fit his entire career.

We were very lucky to get him on the park as much as we did during the course of 1995.

Pearce = a good player cut down by knee injuries. Far from an average player in a good team.

 

[Chezza]

why is it always the coach to blame?

don't these players have self pride
don't they have pride in playing for the GREAT navy blue of Carlton

regardless of who is coaching the 22 players picked each week represent Carlton, not the coach.

I don't think it is always the coach who is to blame, but it is always a possibility. I think the nice notion of all of the boys having the pride to play for the Great Navy Blue wouldn't be a factor as most of these boys probably grew up supporting someone else. As you mentioned though, more important is pride in their own performance, I would say. Being able to look their team-mates in the eye and say ' I've given it my best '.

Also, I think the coach of a side is no different to a teacher/boss in any other field. I know I did a lot better at school with teachers that I got on well with, but was less prepared to put in for the ones I thought were ****ers. That's where it should come down to personal pride.

I'd love to know what these guys are being told before/during matches, especially the guys playing 30 minutes of the game. Have a look at the Time On Ground columns when the stats come out each week, I don't think any other club uses their bench so little (and sporadically). That's definately a management issue. Last week was a classic. McLaren 26 minutes, Blackwell 46 minutes, Kennedy 30 minutes. You're running around with tired players. I'm sure people would argue that we don't have the talent to cover our better players when they need a rest, but how else do others improve other than to spend time out there gaining experience and more importantly, confidence.

I guess you could gather from this little rant that I believe the coach has a huge amount to do with our players performance.