NT Jacinta Nampijinpa Price

[Johnny Bananas]

Cronulla was a once-off event triggered by misplaced “patriotism” as a thin excuse to brawl. Violence in the communities is continual, either within a community or between communities, eg Wadeye.

Great. It doesn't change my point. It's to show that alcohol-fuelled mass violence isn't specific to Aboriginal people or Aboriginal communities.

Why don’t the elders have the power to make decisions? Because the communities are not structured like a council, with a few having authority over the rest. Some communities are peaceful, others not. It comes down to the individuals within the groups.

Regardless of the situation, they should be able to make the decision themselves rather than having it imposed on them by a government body. If it's so obvious that an alcohol ban is the solution to the problems afflicting every Aboriginal community, they should all be lining up to welcome the police in to enforce the bans. If they aren't, then I'm sure you can tell us all why with your expert knowledge of life in Aboriginal communities.

Seeing as she was born and lived much of her life in communities, and is still strongly involved with them through her extended family, I’d put a lot more faith in her ideas than that.

Does that automatically make her right? What if I found someone who was also born and lived much of their life in Aboriginal communities who says the opposite? An argument from authority isn't an argument at all. Price still only wants a ban imposed on Aboriginal communities but not other country towns. What's the difference between them?

Rehab and counselling are Band-Aid measures, after the damage is done. How about stopping the damage before it’s done.

I think you have a somewhat limited view of the good that (culturally sensitive) mental health care can do. It doesn't have to be a reactionary measure, only to be implemented after damage is done. It can be started at any time and continued regularly to limit any future damage.

If you believe an externally-imposed alcohol ban will stop the damage before it's done by itself, without the need for mental health care or other measures to improve quality of life, how do you account for things like sly grogging and dodgy homebrewing? Is the answer still more restrictions and punishment? Can we restrict and punish entire communities into all permanently solving their problems? If so, why didn't it work after 15 years of bans? Why are people apparently reaching for the bottle as soon as they can legally do so?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

Ffs where is their law applying to one group?????
The law would be for remote communities where community services are limited. NO ONE CAN DRINK IN A DRY COMMUNITY !!!!! White fellas included.

Again if someone wants to drink alcohol they can …. Just not in a remote community.

Can you please name for us all the non-Aboriginal-majority communities that were subject to the bans? If there are too many to name, just two or three will do. You know as well as I do that the intervention and its ongoing restrictions were only performed on Aboriginal communities, not those governed by a non-Aboriginal body.

Would you lift a ban if you knew it would cause harm to women children?

Once again, that's for the community to decide. If it's fine for someone external to decide what will cause harm to women and children and make a decision for everyone based on that, why don't we have alcohol bans across Australia? Are women and children immune from alcohol-related harm outside Aboriginal communities?

There's a fair argument to be made that the new laws should have allowed communities to opt out of bans rather than opt in to them. I'm willing to consider that perspective, because it still leaves the ultimate power in the hands of the community. Perhaps it makes it easier for them to accept a ban that way, I don't know. But I'm not board with the idea of taking that power away from the community in a bid to save Aboriginal people from themselves. That hasn't gone well in Australian history.

 

[nut]

These people are clueless I suppose

Police, health bodies worry about 'hasty' return of alcohol to remote communities

A senior officer expresses concern over what allowing alcohol into previously dry communities might mean without a transition period after restrictions expire in July.

www.abc.net.au

 

[nut]

Can you please name for us all the non-Aboriginal-majority communities that were subject to the bans? If there are too many to name, just two or three will do. You know as well as I do that the intervention and its ongoing restrictions were only performed on Aboriginal communities, not those governed by a non-Aboriginal body.


Once again, that's for the community to decide. If it's fine for someone external to decide what will cause harm to women and children and make a decision for everyone based on that, why don't we have alcohol bans across Australia? Are women and children immune from alcohol-related harm outside Aboriginal communities?

There's a fair argument to be made that the new laws should have allowed communities to opt out of bans rather than opt in to them. I'm willing to consider that perspective, because it still leaves the ultimate power in the hands of the community. Perhaps it makes it easier for them to accept a ban that way, I don't know. But I'm not board with the idea of taking that power away from the community in a bid to save Aboriginal people from themselves. That hasn't gone well in Australian history.

So when these wet communities are deemed unsafe and children are removed for their safety like they are all over Australia in unsafe environments…. Will that be racist too?

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So when these wet communities are deemed unsafe and children are removed for their safety like they are all over Australia in unsafe environments…. Will that be racist too?

It can be done in a less racist manner, for example keeping Aboriginal children with other Aboriginal families of the same or a similar culture, rather than creating a new stolen generation.

 

[nut]

It can be done in a less racist manner, for example keeping Aboriginal children with other Aboriginal families of the same or a similar culture, rather than creating a new stolen generation.

So they get treated differently than everyone else?

 

[Curly5]

Great. It doesn't change my point. It's to show that alcohol-fuelled mass violence isn't specific to Aboriginal people or Aboriginal communities.

If you can’t see the difference between a one-off event and ongoing eruptions of violence I don’t know how to explain it to you.

Regardless of the situation, they should be able to make the decision themselves rather than having it imposed on them by a government body. If it's so obvious that an alcohol ban is the solution to the problems afflicting every Aboriginal community, they should all be lining up to welcome the police in to enforce the bans. If they aren't, then I'm sure you can tell us all why with your expert knowledge of life in Aboriginal communities.

No need to get personal. We are all just exchanging ideas. I’m all for them making their own decisions but enforcing them shouldn’t then rely on the police.

Does that automatically make her right? What if I found someone who was also born and lived much of their life in Aboriginal communities who says the opposite? An argument from authority isn't an argument at all. Price still only wants a ban imposed on Aboriginal communities but not other country towns. What's the difference between them?

It doesn’t automatically make her wrong either. By all means quote other community members who say different. You’re never going to get total agreement on issues in any situation. My take is you have to do what works, even if it isn’t perfect,

I think you have a somewhat limited view of the good that (culturally sensitive) mental health care can do. It doesn't have to be a reactionary measure, only to be implemented after damage is done. It can be started at any time and continued regularly to limit any future damage.

I’m sure it can do a lot of good but not in isolation without other preventative measures. It certainly would need to be intensive, targeted and outcome-specific.

If you believe an externally-imposed alcohol ban will stop the damage before it's done by itself, without the need for mental health care or other measures to improve quality of life, how do you account for things like sly grogging and dodgy homebrewing? Is the answer still more restrictions and punishment? Can we restrict and punish entire communities into all permanently solving their problems? If so, why didn't it work after 15 years of bans? Why are people apparently reaching for the bottle as soon as they can legally do so?

If people want something badly enough they will find ways to get it. It’s preferable that communities, families, individuals are self-motivated to change or improve, so there could be rewards instead of punishment.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

I just find it funny the arguments the same people (alot of them mods) have depending if they agree with what rules are being implemented:

1. If a white politician/senator came up with this idea the response would be to anyone who agreed with them: 'your not aboriginal, you are putting your white man values on them'
2. If an Aboriginal politician/senator comes up with an idea 'that aboriginal's opinion doesnt agree with my thoughts so i will disagree and argue with anyone how wrong he/she is (even though im white)'

Who are you quoting in your second point? The language used seems quite disrespectful, and I haven't seen anyone else in this thread speaking in such a manner, so I can only assume it's your own words. Might want to speak in a less dehumanising manner in future.

Are we never allowed to disagree with an Aboriginal politician just because they're Aboriginal? Is someone always right about Aboriginal affairs just because they're Aboriginal themselves? If they want to take choice and control over Aboriginal communities away from the people who live there, is it any better if it's being spoken by an Aboriginal politician rather than a white politician?

I can find Aboriginal politicians who think differently to Price on this issue. She doesn't speak for the thoughts of all Aboriginal people.

 

[Johnny Bananas]

So they get treated differently than everyone else?

Do you want to erase Aboriginal culture from Aboriginal children? Were the stolen generations not enough?

 

[nut]

It can be done in a less racist manner, for example keeping Aboriginal children with other Aboriginal families of the same or a similar culture, rather than creating a new stolen generation.

And you do realize this is what they also did during the stolen generation … for example the Long family are actually from the desert … brought to the Tiwis and I’m pretty sure the Rioli’s too.
A lot of tribal issue are from these days.

I am strongly against removing children and families from their communities…

 

[nut]

Do you want to erase Aboriginal culture from Aboriginal children? Were the stolen generations not enough?

No, I want a safe environment, so the men, women and children can remain on their lands….

 

[nut]

I’ve been to the pub in this community

Peppimenarti community desperate for help to end violence stopping children going to school - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

 

[Curly5]

I’ve been to the pub in this community

Peppimenarti community desperate for help to end violence stopping children going to school - ABC News

amp.abc.net.au

That article brought tears to my eyes. The community wants something done, but what?

 

[nut]

That article brought tears to my eyes. The community wants something done, but what?

Apparently it’s simple … just take kids out of the community and put them with other aboriginal families somewhere else? And keep the pub open.

 

[FRUMPY]

Apparently it’s simple … just take kids out of the community and put them with other aboriginal families somewhere else? And keep the pub open.

or get an aboriginal they like to come up with the idea.....

 

[nut]

I’ve been to this community … Umbekumba the only semi- wet aboriginal community on Groote Eylandt … tragic. Let’s remove the children from here too . Keep them drinking though.

Teenagers’ tragic lives and deaths - ‘A disgrace in a country such as Australia’

The Northern Territory Coroner says multiple criminal offences may have been committed in relation to the suspected suicides of three teenage girls in Top End remote communities.

www.sbs.com.au

 

[Curly5]

Both sides of the argument here

As the controversial cashless debit card faces the axe, there are fears 'chaos' will follow

As the Commonwealth moves to scrap the cashless debit card, there is apprehension in remote northern Australia about life without the controversial form of income management.

www.abc.net.au

 

[HairyO]

If you make laws that only apply to one group of people and that's based on their ethnicity then it's racist regardless of who's proposing it.

Its based on women and children being 35 to 80 times more likely to suffer from abuse, neglect, violence and rape and a need to fix it now, rather than more years of hand wringing and crossing fingers and throwing money blindly and things only getting worse.

Are you suggesting any non Aboriginal people in those communities would be free to buy and drink booze?

 

[Gough]

When we talk about this sort violence in other communities the not all men crowd are very quick to jump on board and yet I would imagine those very same people are quite happy to tar all Indigenous men with these punitive arrangements.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Absolutely.

It's why if you take the time and look at the progression of education within indigenous communities, I'm actually heartened some by the trajectory despite the reality as it sits right now. Sure, indigenous education outcomes are at the bottom to middle of achievement at present but that can be explained by poverty and remoteness; compare that to the majority adult population of the 1970's/80's who couldn't read, didn't have much maths, and never had much schooling at all.

In a lot of ways, we've failed first nations peoples in this country. It's why I get rather irritated when I hear that things are getting worse when they simply aren't.

Improve outcomes to the point of parity, then you can address poor regional education and improve the lot for all.

In my ‘expert’ opinion I believe many areas are getting worse.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Dude, you're not listening.

The project of improving the lot of first nations people to middle Australian standards isn't something that will be accomplished within 30 years. You can wave emotive language at it up till the cows come home, but it won't change the reality that - in reality - you and yours don't really care all that much about the plight of indigenous children or women until it becomes politically expedient for you to do so.

Look at it like this: indigenous education rates prior to the 1980's were nonexistent. You had individuals but that was it. Now, you have lower end to middle standards for indigenous education to year 7, which is now where the dropoffs are occurring. Some of that is due to poorer educative outcomes in regional areas; some of that is due to a wider societal trend that uneducated homes devalue education as a means of personal or societal improvement; some of that is due to the last 30 years being dominated by federal governments focussed on NSW and Southern QLD, not NT or WA. And yes, some of that is due to a fed government being dominated by the Libs, who care only for indigenous australians when they wander into their suburbs or have the gall to have a political opinion whilst playing footy.

What we're doing is working, slowly. Progress isn't going to be quick, because there's not a lot of trust out there and nor should there be. We're still removing kids from homes, see; we might have the best of intentions, but the outcome - an indigenous child is removed from their parent's care - is still happening. Why should they trust us now when we say we're doing it for the kid's own good? We said that last time.

Why the impatience now, I wonder? Why is there suddenly a haste, a need to do something - anything - to accelerate the timeline? C'mon, you're a Labor government; do something. Morrison, Turnbull, Abbott could've done something; why the haste now?

I can think of a reason or two why.

And at times removing kids from homes is best for them

 

[South of the Yarra]

Dude, you're not listening.

The project of improving the lot of first nations people to middle Australian standards isn't something that will be accomplished within 30 years. You can wave emotive language at it up till the cows come home, but it won't change the reality that - in reality - you and yours don't really care all that much about the plight of indigenous children or women until it becomes politically expedient for you to do so.

Look at it like this: indigenous education rates prior to the 1980's were nonexistent. You had individuals but that was it. Now, you have lower end to middle standards for indigenous education to year 7, which is now where the dropoffs are occurring. Some of that is due to poorer educative outcomes in regional areas; some of that is due to a wider societal trend that uneducated homes devalue education as a means of personal or societal improvement; some of that is due to the last 30 years being dominated by federal governments focussed on NSW and Southern QLD, not NT or WA. And yes, some of that is due to a fed government being dominated by the Libs, who care only for indigenous australians when they wander into their suburbs or have the gall to have a political opinion whilst playing footy.

What we're doing is working, slowly. Progress isn't going to be quick, because there's not a lot of trust out there and nor should there be. We're still removing kids from homes, see; we might have the best of intentions, but the outcome - an indigenous child is removed from their parent's care - is still happening. Why should they trust us now when we say we're doing it for the kid's own good? We said that last time.

Why the impatience now, I wonder? Why is there suddenly a haste, a need to do something - anything - to accelerate the timeline? C'mon, you're a Labor government; do something. Morrison, Turnbull, Abbott could've done something; why the haste now?

I can think of a reason or two why.

Removal of Aboriginal children or any children from homes is important at times depending on the situation.

 

[South of the Yarra]

Absolutely.

It's why if you take the time and look at the progression of education within indigenous communities, I'm actually heartened some by the trajectory despite the reality as it sits right now. Sure, indigenous education outcomes are at the bottom to middle of achievement at present but that can be explained by poverty and remoteness; compare that to the majority adult population of the 1970's/80's who couldn't read, didn't have much maths, and never had much schooling at all.

In a lot of ways, we've failed first nations peoples in this country. It's why I get rather irritated when I hear that things are getting worse when they simply aren't.

Improve outcomes to the point of parity, then you can address poor regional education and improve the lot for all.

Aboriginal education based on a ‘white policy maker’ system of measurement.

 

[South of the Yarra]

…. And no these issues aren’t race based.

Put any group of low economic, uneducated, unemployed people in a remote town with no prospects of meaningful employment …. And then add alcohol.

So yes alcohol isn’t the underlying problem.

Uneducated by what means of measure?

 

[South of the Yarra]

It can be done in a less racist manner, for example keeping Aboriginal children with other Aboriginal families of the same or a similar culture, rather than creating a new stolen generation.

Doesn’t always work. Sometimes it is for the best.