"Jobe Watson never cheated" - Hird

[Muggs]

Well except for the case being heard in Sydney by three highly regarded jurists

With 2 UK based arbitrators, so the justice system Australia's based on and the third Australian.. Not one lives in Switzerland.

One spilts his time between UK and Belgium, so guess you still have chocolate connection though.

 

[Bombfire]

Is there 1?
Seems to me they just sat there counting the moneys

No the three CAS buffoons just ignored the facts.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Player A wouldn't have seen that in 2012 when he googled thymosin.

Yes he would have had.

Crameri's Mum did. She read that, apprarently, and decided that it must be 'the other one' that her son was having injected into him and just left her research at that.


I mean seriously.

 

[LoungeLizard]

No the three CAS buffoons just ignored the facts.

Oh so the legals were still just counting the moneys, when they appealed then?

 

[Bombfire]

Yes he would have had.

Crameri's Mum did. She read that, apprarently, and decided that it must be 'the other one' that her son was having injected into him and just left her research at that.


I mean seriously.

This is what happened;

In February 2012, the Crameri family searched for ‘thymosin’ which they knew to be Thymomodulin. Thymomodulin is an immunity booster that can be safely given to babies and is legal for athletes to use. Four months later, ASADA made exactly the same inquiries. On 3 July 2012, ASADA Science and Results Manager Dr Steven Watt sent an email to WADA. It reads:

“I wanted to inquire if WADA had considered the prohibited status of a drug Thymomodulin, also known as thymosin”.

Source: See attached, page numbered 2 https://www.asada.gov.au/sites/g/files/net126/f/Josh O'dea - TB4 correspondence - released documents.pdf

 

[peppy la pew]

Checking Thymosin at ASADA would have raised nothing.

How would you know that at the time if no one bothered to check

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

This is what happened;

In February 2012, the Crameri family searched for ‘thymosin’ which they knew to be Thymomodulin. Thymomodulin is an immunity booster that can be safely given to babies and is legal for athletes to use. Four months later, ASADA made exactly the same inquiries. On 3 July 2012, ASADA Science and Results Manager Dr Steven Watt sent an email to WADA. It reads:

“I wanted to inquire if WADA had considered the prohibited status of a drug Thymomodulin, also known as thymosin”.

Source: See attached, page numbered 2 https://www.asada.gov.au/sites/g/files/net126/f/Josh O'dea - TB4 correspondence - released documents.pdf

Ok right, so she never searched thymosin?

 

[LoungeLizard]

This is what happened;

In February 2012, the Crameri family searched for ‘thymosin’ which they knew to be Thymomodulin. Thymomodulin is an immunity booster that can be safely given to babies and is legal for athletes to use. Four months later, ASADA made exactly the same inquiries. On 3 July 2012, ASADA Science and Results Manager Dr Steven Watt sent an email to WADA. It reads:

“I wanted to inquire if WADA had considered the prohibited status of a drug Thymomodulin, also known as thymosin”.

Source: See attached, page numbered 2 https://www.asada.gov.au/sites/g/files/net126/f/Josh O'dea - TB4 correspondence - released documents.pdf

You would think Jobe is a smart bloke wouldn't you?
Why would he not mention thymomodulin?

 

[Bombfire]

You would think Jobe is a smart bloke wouldn't you?
Why would he not mention thymomodulin?

He did, they just, you know ignored the exculpatory stuff.

 

[Bombfire]

Ok right, so she never searched thymosin?

In February 2012, the Crameri family searched for ‘thymosin’

 

[Bombfire]

How would you know that at the time if no one bothered to check

If ASADA couldn't for that time, how could anyone else. Go check their response to this question for the Senate Estimates Committee. Abysmal piece of work.

 

[LoungeLizard]

He did, they just, you know ignored the exculpatory stuff.

Show us where he did?
All i have read so far is he inquired about the thymosin injections, good and bad was the answer.
You would think he would have known about the thymomodulin.

I think the only people who used the word thymomodulin were Hird and Dank, after the investigations started.

I wonder why the legals wouldn't touch it?

 

[takenoterock]

Not one, not one of them managed to put down on their form when tested "Supplement Injection"
What do you call that if not lying?

You made that up. Read this....On first reading this is another example of the panel generalising or being lazy and failing to be specific. As the panel had access to the players’ doping control forms it should have taken the extra minute to quantify how many of the 34 players didn’t fill in their forms correctly. On closer reading, we discover that once again the panel was being extraordinarily liberal with the truth. Only 21 players were drug tested during the period. As can be seen below, at least eight of the nine players I have information for filled out their forms correctly.


The horrifying aspect of the panel’s claim is it had no idea what it was talking about. The panel cannot substantiate that the 21 players didn’t reveal the receipt of injections. As Thymosin is the only banned substance, it is clearly the substance that concerned the panel that it had allegedly been omitted from the players’ doping control form. The players were required to list all substances taken within seven days of their test. The panel cannot name a single date that a specific player was injected. Consequently, it is astounding that the panel claimed that the players failed to follow the rules. The onus was on WADA to provide evidence that the players failed to record that they had received an injection within seven days of their test. WADA failed to offer any evidence to that effect. Unconscionably, without any evidence to support its determination, the panel implied that the players had colluded with each other and had lied when filling out their forms.

The outrageousness of the panel’s negative judgement of the players arising from this issue is exemplified by the following seven players who were cross-examined by the CAS panel:
1. Scott Gumbleton did not have a doping test in 2012.
2. Brent Prismall was tested on 6 December 2011. Prismall hadn’t received an injection at that stage and therefore he had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
3. Jobe Watson was tested in January 2012 and 12 July 2012. Watson hadn’t been injected before February 2012 and refused to be injected by the end of April. Consequently, he cannot be accused of failing to fill out his form correctly.
4. David Hille was tested on 14 May 2012. Like Watson, he too, refused injections before the end of April.
5. Cory Dell’Olio was tested on 14 July 2012. As he had not received an injection in the previous seven days he had nothing to declare on his doping control form
6. Mark McVeigh was tested on 23 January 2012. McVeigh had not been injected at that stage and therefore had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
7. Ricky Dyson was tested on six occasions in 2012. As I don’t know, and the panel doesn’t know, when Dyson received his Thymosin injection, it is impossible to say whether he failed to fill out his form correctly.

Although Dyson Heppell and Ben Howlett were not required to appear at the hearing, they were in the same boat as the first six players listed above in that they were tested before (23 January 2012) receiving any injections.. As they had not been injected at that stage they had nothing to declare on their doping control forms.

Seven of the remaining 12 players testified that they were never administered a Thymosin injection. Therefore, only a maximum number of five players may not have filled out their doping control forms correctly. I cannot comment on those five players because I have not seen their doping control test forms, despite having made a FOI request to ASADA for those forms on 22 June 2016.

My command of the English language is poor and my mathematical skills are worse. But in my book, five out of 34 doesn’t reconcile with the panel’s claim that “the complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control form ("DCF") during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were injected with”.

Shamefully, this statement was one of the major reasons the panel found the players guilty.

 

[SonofSamsquanch]

As only 15 players were tested in 2012, it means 19 players weren't required to fill out the declaration yet they were all lassooed by an incompetent panel of three buffoons in Switzerland masquerading as learned arbiters of fair play in sport.

Wouldn't the incompetent buffoon be the one who lead the players defence? Surely if all the holes exist that are being posted here, the CAS, the Swiss court or the UNHCR would have thrown out the WADA appeal if a half decent defence was run?

 

[LoungeLizard]

You made that up. Read this....On first reading this is another example of the panel generalising or being lazy and failing to be specific. As the panel had access to the players’ doping control forms it should have taken the extra minute to quantify how many of the 34 players didn’t fill in their forms correctly. On closer reading, we discover that once again the panel was being extraordinarily liberal with the truth. Only 21 players were drug tested during the period. As can be seen below, at least eight of the nine players I have information for filled out their forms correctly.


The horrifying aspect of the panel’s claim is it had no idea what it was talking about. The panel cannot substantiate that the 21 players didn’t reveal the receipt of injections. As Thymosin is the only banned substance, it is clearly the substance that concerned the panel that it had allegedly been omitted from the players’ doping control form. The players were required to list all substances taken within seven days of their test. The panel cannot name a single date that a specific player was injected. Consequently, it is astounding that the panel claimed that the players failed to follow the rules. The onus was on WADA to provide evidence that the players failed to record that they had received an injection within seven days of their test. WADA failed to offer any evidence to that effect. Unconscionably, without any evidence to support its determination, the panel implied that the players had colluded with each other and had lied when filling out their forms.

The outrageousness of the panel’s negative judgement of the players arising from this issue is exemplified by the following seven players who were cross-examined by the CAS panel:
1. Scott Gumbleton did not have a doping test in 2012.
2. Brent Prismall was tested on 6 December 2011. Prismall hadn’t received an injection at that stage and therefore he had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
3. Jobe Watson was tested in January 2012 and 12 July 2012. Watson hadn’t been injected before February 2012 and refused to be injected by the end of April. Consequently, he cannot be accused of failing to fill out his form correctly.
4. David Hille was tested on 14 May 2012. Like Watson, he too, refused injections before the end of April.
5. Cory Dell’Olio was tested on 14 July 2012. As he had not received an injection in the previous seven days he had nothing to declare on his doping control form
6. Mark McVeigh was tested on 23 January 2012. McVeigh had not been injected at that stage and therefore had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
7. Ricky Dyson was tested on six occasions in 2012. As I don’t know, and the panel doesn’t know, when Dyson received his Thymosin injection, it is impossible to say whether he failed to fill out his form correctly.



Although Dyson Heppell and Ben Howlett were not required to appear at the hearing, they were in the same boat as the first six players listed above in that they were tested before (23 January 2012) receiving any injections.. As they had not been injected at that stage they had nothing to declare on their doping control forms.

Seven of the remaining 12 players testified that they were never administered a Thymosin injection. Therefore, only a maximum number of five players may not have filled out their doping control forms correctly. I cannot comment on those five players because I have not seen their doping control test forms, despite having made a FOI request to ASADA for those forms on 22 June 2016.

My command of the English language is poor and my mathematical skills are worse. But in my book, five out of 34 doesn’t reconcile with the panel’s claim that “the complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control form ("DCF") during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were injected with”.

Shamefully, this statement was one of the major reasons the panel found the players guilty.

Wasn't it Heppell that was interviewed on tv?
He was asked why he didn't fill in the form.
His answer was along the lines of, i really don't know.
Now if he hadn't received an injection, don't you think that is a stupid answer?

 

[takenoterock]

Why did the majority of the 34 withhold information in their interviews about the number and type of injections if they were doing nothing wrong.

Just a coincidence?

.On first reading this is another example of the panel generalising or being lazy and failing to be specific. As the panel had access to the players’ doping control forms it should have taken the extra minute to quantify how many of the 34 players didn’t fill in their forms correctly. On closer reading, we discover that once again the panel was being extraordinarily liberal with the truth. Only 21 players were drug tested during the period. As can be seen below, at least eight of the nine players I have information for filled out their forms correctly.


The horrifying aspect of the panel’s claim is it had no idea what it was talking about. The panel cannot substantiate that the 21 players didn’t reveal the receipt of injections. As Thymosin is the only banned substance, it is clearly the substance that concerned the panel that it had allegedly been omitted from the players’ doping control form. The players were required to list all substances taken within seven days of their test. The panel cannot name a single date that a specific player was injected. Consequently, it is astounding that the panel claimed that the players failed to follow the rules. The onus was on WADA to provide evidence that the players failed to record that they had received an injection within seven days of their test. WADA failed to offer any evidence to that effect. Unconscionably, without any evidence to support its determination, the panel implied that the players had colluded with each other and had lied when filling out their forms.

The outrageousness of the panel’s negative judgement of the players arising from this issue is exemplified by the following seven players who were cross-examined by the CAS panel:
1. Scott Gumbleton did not have a doping test in 2012.
2. Brent Prismall was tested on 6 December 2011. Prismall hadn’t received an injection at that stage and therefore he had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
3. Jobe Watson was tested in January 2012 and 12 July 2012. Watson hadn’t been injected before February 2012 and refused to be injected by the end of April. Consequently, he cannot be accused of failing to fill out his form correctly.
4. David Hille was tested on 14 May 2012. Like Watson, he too, refused injections before the end of April.
5. Cory Dell’Olio was tested on 14 July 2012. As he had not received an injection in the previous seven days he had nothing to declare on his doping control form
6. Mark McVeigh was tested on 23 January 2012. McVeigh had not been injected at that stage and therefore had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
7. Ricky Dyson was tested on six occasions in 2012. As I don’t know, and the panel doesn’t know, when Dyson received his Thymosin injection, it is impossible to say whether he failed to fill out his form correctly.

Although Dyson Heppell and Ben Howlett were not required to appear at the hearing, they were in the same boat as the first six players listed above in that they were tested before (23 January 2012) receiving any injections.. As they had not been injected at that stage they had nothing to declare on their doping control forms.

Seven of the remaining 12 players testified that they were never administered a Thymosin injection. Therefore, only a maximum number of five players may not have filled out their doping control forms correctly. I cannot comment on those five players because I have not seen their doping control test forms, despite having made a FOI request to ASADA for those forms on 22 June 2016.

My command of the English language is poor and my mathematical skills are worse. But in my book, five out of 34 doesn’t reconcile with the panel’s claim that “the complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control form ("DCF") during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were injected with”.

Shamefully, this statement was one of the major reasons the panel found the players guilty.

 

[LoungeLizard]

You also seem to have a hell of a lot of up to date records, when none were kept.

 

[takenoterock]

Wasn't it Heppell that was interviewed on tv?
He was asked why he didn't fill in the form.
His answer was along the lines of, i really don't know.
Now if he hadn't received an injection, don't you think that is a stupid answer?

It wasn't Heppell

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

You made that up. Read this....On first reading this is another example of the panel generalising or being lazy and failing to be specific. As the panel had access to the players’ doping control forms it should have taken the extra minute to quantify how many of the 34 players didn’t fill in their forms correctly. On closer reading, we discover that once again the panel was being extraordinarily liberal with the truth. Only 21 players were drug tested during the period. As can be seen below, at least eight of the nine players I have information for filled out their forms correctly.


The horrifying aspect of the panel’s claim is it had no idea what it was talking about. The panel cannot substantiate that the 21 players didn’t reveal the receipt of injections. As Thymosin is the only banned substance, it is clearly the substance that concerned the panel that it had allegedly been omitted from the players’ doping control form. The players were required to list all substances taken within seven days of their test. The panel cannot name a single date that a specific player was injected. Consequently, it is astounding that the panel claimed that the players failed to follow the rules. The onus was on WADA to provide evidence that the players failed to record that they had received an injection within seven days of their test. WADA failed to offer any evidence to that effect. Unconscionably, without any evidence to support its determination, the panel implied that the players had colluded with each other and had lied when filling out their forms.

The outrageousness of the panel’s negative judgement of the players arising from this issue is exemplified by the following seven players who were cross-examined by the CAS panel:
1. Scott Gumbleton did not have a doping test in 2012.
2. Brent Prismall was tested on 6 December 2011. Prismall hadn’t received an injection at that stage and therefore he had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
3. Jobe Watson was tested in January 2012 and 12 July 2012. Watson hadn’t been injected before February 2012 and refused to be injected by the end of April. Consequently, he cannot be accused of failing to fill out his form correctly.
4. David Hille was tested on 14 May 2012. Like Watson, he too, refused injections before the end of April.
5. Cory Dell’Olio was tested on 14 July 2012. As he had not received an injection in the previous seven days he had nothing to declare on his doping control form
6. Mark McVeigh was tested on 23 January 2012. McVeigh had not been injected at that stage and therefore had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
7. Ricky Dyson was tested on six occasions in 2012. As I don’t know, and the panel doesn’t know, when Dyson received his Thymosin injection, it is impossible to say whether he failed to fill out his form correctly.

Although Dyson Heppell and Ben Howlett were not required to appear at the hearing, they were in the same boat as the first six players listed above in that they were tested before (23 January 2012) receiving any injections.. As they had not been injected at that stage they had nothing to declare on their doping control forms.

Seven of the remaining 12 players testified that they were never administered a Thymosin injection. Therefore, only a maximum number of five players may not have filled out their doping control forms correctly. I cannot comment on those five players because I have not seen their doping control test forms, despite having made a FOI request to ASADA for those forms on 22 June 2016.

My command of the English language is poor and my mathematical skills are worse. But in my book, five out of 34 doesn’t reconcile with the panel’s claim that “the complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control form ("DCF") during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were injected with”.

Shamefully, this statement was one of the major reasons the panel found the players guilty.

Ahhh Brucey. Welcome back.

 

[LoungeLizard]

It wasn't Heppell

So ok, lets say it wasn't, but i still think it was, will check some time.
could you explain who got all these records, and where from, none were kept.

 

[takenoterock]

Ahhh Brucey. Welcome back.

Thanks

 

[Boxhead_31]

.On first reading this is another example of the panel generalising or being lazy and failing to be specific. As the panel had access to the players’ doping control forms it should have taken the extra minute to quantify how many of the 34 players didn’t fill in their forms correctly. On closer reading, we discover that once again the panel was being extraordinarily liberal with the truth. Only 21 players were drug tested during the period. As can be seen below, at least eight of the nine players I have information for filled out their forms correctly.


The horrifying aspect of the panel’s claim is it had no idea what it was talking about. The panel cannot substantiate that the 21 players didn’t reveal the receipt of injections. As Thymosin is the only banned substance, it is clearly the substance that concerned the panel that it had allegedly been omitted from the players’ doping control form. The players were required to list all substances taken within seven days of their test. The panel cannot name a single date that a specific player was injected. Consequently, it is astounding that the panel claimed that the players failed to follow the rules. The onus was on WADA to provide evidence that the players failed to record that they had received an injection within seven days of their test. WADA failed to offer any evidence to that effect. Unconscionably, without any evidence to support its determination, the panel implied that the players had colluded with each other and had lied when filling out their forms.

The outrageousness of the panel’s negative judgement of the players arising from this issue is exemplified by the following seven players who were cross-examined by the CAS panel:
1. Scott Gumbleton did not have a doping test in 2012.
2. Brent Prismall was tested on 6 December 2011. Prismall hadn’t received an injection at that stage and therefore he had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
3. Jobe Watson was tested in January 2012 and 12 July 2012. Watson hadn’t been injected before February 2012 and refused to be injected by the end of April. Consequently, he cannot be accused of failing to fill out his form correctly.
4. David Hille was tested on 14 May 2012. Like Watson, he too, refused injections before the end of April.
5. Cory Dell’Olio was tested on 14 July 2012. As he had not received an injection in the previous seven days he had nothing to declare on his doping control form
6. Mark McVeigh was tested on 23 January 2012. McVeigh had not been injected at that stage and therefore had nothing to declare on his doping control form.
7. Ricky Dyson was tested on six occasions in 2012. As I don’t know, and the panel doesn’t know, when Dyson received his Thymosin injection, it is impossible to say whether he failed to fill out his form correctly.

Although Dyson Heppell and Ben Howlett were not required to appear at the hearing, they were in the same boat as the first six players listed above in that they were tested before (23 January 2012) receiving any injections.. As they had not been injected at that stage they had nothing to declare on their doping control forms.

Seven of the remaining 12 players testified that they were never administered a Thymosin injection. Therefore, only a maximum number of five players may not have filled out their doping control forms correctly. I cannot comment on those five players because I have not seen their doping control test forms, despite having made a FOI request to ASADA for those forms on 22 June 2016.

My command of the English language is poor and my mathematical skills are worse. But in my book, five out of 34 doesn’t reconcile with the panel’s claim that “the complete failure of the vast majority of Players who had to fill in a doping control form ("DCF") during the season to reveal the receipt of injections does not encourage confidence in their statements as to the limited or sporadic nature of what they were injected with”.

Shamefully, this statement was one of the major reasons the panel found the players guilty.

Take it there are records to back up the claim that the stated players weren't injected at the stated dates, or is this a "trust us because we say so" situations?

 

[60sbomber]

Wrong, a qualified person would have told them different , let's say a doctor. Dr Reid would have asked for the data sheets on the product and would have been able to make a determination if it was legal to use in sport and safe for human use. At this stage if Dank had done the switch to use the good stuff he would have served time by now as Dr Reid would have been able to say this is what he said he was going to inject but he used something else.
These people trusted Reidy emphatically, he is a wonderful caring doctor so why did they deliberately keep him out of the loop. The reason is not really important as in doing so they circumvented the one person who could have saved them.

What rubbish this is.
Data sheets? If I ring my doctor and tell him the chemist, or my wife, or the nurse at my workplace, has given me something, what is it and is it ok? Does he ask for "data sheets"? Of course he doesn't. He believes that the person who is responsible for dispensing whatever it is, is not lying or being devious, and he tells me what it is and whether it is ok. Dank told the players he was giving them the legal form of thymosin. When they asked Doc Reid or anyone else was this ok, the answer would have been yes.
Where did the "human use" bit come from? This is a favourite line thrown in as often as possible by people who want it to look and sound bad. Thymosin, and thymomodulin, which Dank claimed to be giving the players, is used on infants.

 

[60sbomber]

Take it there are records to back up the claim that the stated players weren't injected at the stated dates, or is this a "trust us because we say so" situations?

It's the other way round.
The prosecution needs to establish that they were injected within the relevant timeframe in order to use the line of argument about the doping control forms.

 

[LoungeLizard]

What rubbish this is.
Data sheets? If I ring my doctor and tell him the chemist, or my wife, or the nurse at my workplace, has given me something, what is it and is it ok? Does he ask for "data sheets"? Of course he doesn't. He believes that the person who is responsible for dispensing whatever it is, is not lying or being devious, and he tells me what it is and whether it is ok. Dank told the players he was giving them the legal form of thymosin. When they asked Doc Reid or anyone else was this ok, the answer would have been yes.
Where did the "human use" bit come from? This is a favourite line thrown in as often as possible by people who want it to look and sound bad. Thymosin, and thymomodulin, which Dank claimed to be giving the players, is used on infants.

I have some fundamental problems being club doctor at present. This particularly applies to the administration of supplements. 
Although we have been giving supplements for approximately three months, despite repeated requests as to exactly what we are giving our players and the literature related to this, have at no time been given that until last Sunday [15 January 2012]. Last week the players were given subcutaneous injections, not by myself, and I had no idea that this was happening and also what drug was involved.

This is the Docs letter, seems they do ask for data.