John Hinge

[WaynesWorld19]

what other options do we have? apart from a unproven youngster i cant see us having many options.

If as everyone heresuggests that the modern day tagger also has to be able to run off his opponent as well and create attacking opportunities, then I would be happy with either:

Van Berlo, Begley or Doughty.

No you say ? - if they can't check in the midfield why do we think they could do it on a HBF? where they have or will be played.

 

[macca23]

If as everyone heresuggests that the modern day tagger also has to be able to run off his opponent as well and create attacking opportunities, then I would be happy with either:

Van Berlo, Begley or Doughty.

No you say ? - if they can't check in the midfield why do we think they could do it on a HBF? where they have or will be played.

WW, if you've ever played footy you'd realize there's a massive difference between checking an opponent on a HB flank and one in the mid-field. World's apart and barely worth discussing as a comparison.

Just think of all the good HB flankers over the years, and then try to think how they would have gone as tagging or checking mid-fielders.

Totally different ball game.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

WW, if you've ever played footy you'd realize there's a massive difference between checking an opponent on a HB flank and one in the mid-field. World's apart and barely worth discussing as a comparison.

Just think of all the good HB flankers over the years, and then try to think how they would have gone as tagging or checking mid-fielders.

Totally different ball game.

Macca your , your making this tagger role far more difficult than what it is.

You know if you want to play a negating role it doesn't matter whether you are HB, or midfield. Difference is the aerobic capacity of players generally who are tagged and the tactics used by coaches to shake the tag.

Fact is It's not that bloody difficult to stop another player - and yes played a fair bit of footy.

The fact that Shirley is talked of as being our best option supports my case.

 

[johnnypanther]

Hinge, Nye and others might be a chance down the track but fact is we do NOT have a better tagger than Shirley. Shirley might not be the best footballer going around but he is a good tagger.

Shirley may be a best established tagger but IMO he's not good enough and if we're aiming to build a premiership side then why waste 1 year of playing (by default!) a mediocre tagger
- i still think we would be better off from the start trying others in the role and finding one (even if it costs us a game or two)
- for example - my best bets are Nye & Hinge (but both are rookies therefore can only develop in the SANFL) but meanwhile I would try anyone! (i'm desperate ) eg Jericho,Schuback,Begley,Van Berlo

 

[macca23]

Macca your , your making this tagger role far more difficult than what it is.

You know if you want to play a negating role it doesn't matter whether you are HB, or midfield. Difference is the aerobic capacity of players generally who are tagged and the tactics used by coaches to shake the tag.

Fact is It's not that bloody difficult to stop another player - and yes played a fair bit of footy.

The fact that Shirley is talked of as being our best option supports my case.

Dealing with your last point first WW, on the contrary, it destroys your case.

While Shirley may be of lesser natural ability than some of the other players you have suggested, he is our best tagger, because he does have good aerobic capacity, concentration and a willingness to sacrifice his own game. where he lacks the class of a Kane Cornrnes et al is that he doesn't have the ability to hurt on the rebound.

And contrary to what you say, it's bloody hard to shut down an A grade mid-fielder, who has the whole oval to work with in terms of space. The tagger doesn't have the luxury of using the boundary line like a HB flanker does. The roles are poles apart.

Look at who polls the highest Brownlow votes each year - mid-fielders. The very same ones that get tagged every week. Surely that emphasizes just how hard it is to be an effective tagger.

Also how about listing for me the top ten taggers in the AFL? You should be able to list a 100 because you make it sound so easy all the time.

Any good ones you list will also be good footballers a la Kane Cornes.

I don't think we disagree about Shirley's ability so much. I just think that you under-estimate the difficulty for anyone to play that role effectively.

 

[outback jack]

i agree with macca23 in that a lot of ppl have been mentioning the begley, massie, doughty types, but the reality is that these guys are HBF's and will struggle in the middle.

I think shirely is the best option we have, but its true that unless he has significant improvement in him he is unlikely to be there in three or four yrs. Theres no problem going for van berlo or hinge, but they are youngsters that will take time to develop. If craigy and co are willing to persist with a youngster for this role, then shirley shouldnt get a game at all. In fact its probably the availability of this role that has saved Shirley, if stenglein hadn’t gone home, then Shirley would be a prime candidate for a delisting this yr.

 

[theorangeapple]

i think alot of you people are underestimating how hard is to be a tagger. you need superb endurance, hardness and concentration. you couldnt give the job to a kid in his first 1-2yrs.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Dealing with your last point first WW, on the contrary, it destroys your case.

While Shirley may be of lesser natural ability than some of the other players you have suggested, he is our best tagger, because he does have good aerobic capacity, concentration and a willingness to sacrifice his own game. where he lacks the class of a Kane Cornrnes et al is that he doesn't have the ability to hurt on the rebound.

When did we hear he has good aerobic capacity??
Given that in most of his better games he has tended to shine for 2-3 qtrs but I have never seen a 4 qtr effort from him.
I'd like to see some evidence of this statement - just like you guys said Rutten was too slow for AFL and then slowly revised it to agility - Its sometimes about peoples perceptions.

And contrary to what you say, it's bloody hard to shut down an A grade mid-fielder, who has the whole oval to work with in terms of space. The tagger doesn't have the luxury of using the boundary line like a HB flanker does. The roles are poles apart.

Exactly, which is why I raised the aerobic aspect and the tactics of the other team to shake the tagger as differences between roles.
Which will lead into your next argument:

Look at who polls the highest Brownlow votes each year - mid-fielders. The very same ones that get tagged every week. Surely that emphasizes just how hard it is to be an effective tagger.

And how bloody successful they are!!!!!

Also how about listing for me the top ten taggers in the AFL? You should be able to list a 100 because you make it sound so easy all the time.

Any g list will also be good footballersood ones you a la Kane Cornes.

If they're good Macca, they are not playing tagging roles - we overuse good, star and superstar in this game

I don't think we disagree about Shirley's ability so much. I just think that you under-estimate the difficulty for anyone to play that role effectively.

On the contrary I think I'm a realist - look at the stats of the players who are tagged and really see theyre effectiveness - the taggers from opposition teams have been wonderful in stopping Roo the last 2 seasons - their effectiveness caused him to only win 1 brownlow not two

 

[WaynesWorld19]

i think alot of you people are underestimating how hard is to be a tagger. you need superb endurance, hardness and concentration. you couldnt give the job to a kid in his first 1-2yrs.

Your absolutely correct - also in attributes I'm really glad you didn't mention they have to be a good footy player as well

 

[jo172]

i think alot of you people are underestimating how hard is to be a tagger. you need superb endurance, hardness and concentration. you couldnt give the job to a kid in his first 1-2yrs.

Kane Cornes?

IMO Adelaide should follow this example and develop a Van Berlo or Hinge as a run with player who can hopefully become a premier on baller.

 

[- PC -]

Kane Cornes?

IMO Adelaide should follow this example and develop a Van Berlo or Hinge as a run with player who can hopefully become a premier on baller.

Isnt that a special modus operandi of most clubs? Get the kids to tag a midfielder and learn the game from a great? Isnt that how Kane Cornes developed?

 

[jo172]

Isnt that a special modus operandi of most clubs? Get the kids to tag a midfielder and learn the game from a great? Isnt that how Kane Cornes developed?

Mmm, pity it didn't work for Shirley

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Kane Cornes?

IMO Adelaide should follow this example and develop a Van Berlo or Hinge as a run with player who can hopefully become a premier on baller.

Doesn't this just defeat your earlier argument about young players being given the tagging job

 

[jo172]

Where did I make that argument

 

[Stiffy_18]

How can we say this b4 a footy is kicked (and I mean the real stuff).

His PS form has been ordinary at best and we still say he is the ONLY option.

Think we have our heads in the clouds on this one.

We can say it on past performances and I would think thats a lot better measure than a couple of pre-season games.

The likes of Mattner and Massie wouldn't know the meaning of negating someone's influence.

 

[Stiffy_18]

Shirley may be a best established tagger but IMO he's not good enough and if we're aiming to build a premiership side then why waste 1 year of playing (by default!) a mediocre tagger
- i still think we would be better off from the start trying others in the role and finding one (even if it costs us a game or two)
- for example - my best bets are Nye & Hinge (but both are rookies therefore can only develop in the SANFL) but meanwhile I would try anyone! (i'm desperate ) eg Jericho,Schuback,Begley,Van Berlo

The players you mentioned there that are on the senior list are not that good in some of the areas that taggers have to be good at.

I would cringe if we played Schuback or Jericho as taggers. They would get murdered by quarter time.

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Where did I make that argument

Sorry wrong poster I was aiming at - apologies

 

[WaynesWorld19]

We can say it on past performances and I would think thats a lot better measure than a couple of pre-season games.

The likes of Mattner and Massie wouldn't know the meaning of negating someone's influence.

I'll say it once more

 

[Stiffy_18]

I'll say it once more

Care to back it up with some facts rather than a ""??????

 

[WaynesWorld19]

Stiffy your pre-occupation with Mattner is really going too far.

You have lost all objectivity here when normally I value your opinions.

This kid is developing nicely and if you zeroed in as much on some of the players you have on a pedestal as much I would consider your views balanced.

But mate they are not!

 

[Stiffy_18]

Just because I don't rate him as a tagger doesn't make him any less a player. I think he has been pretty good so far and he gets a spot in my 18 on the wing but that doesn't mean he would make a good tagger.

He has been tried as a tagger in the past and he has failed especially on the players that play "inside" midfield role. He has done a reasonable job on someone like Schofield who is just an outside receiver but he has struggled on someone who can get his own footy. Shall we forget the times that Woewodin, Hird, Harvey etc... have exposed him as an average tagger?????

Mattner is a good player. Not great, not crap but good. A good player doesn't neccessarily mean a good tagger. Massie is also not a tagger and he has been killed a number of times by a quality midfielder.

I mentioned Mattner and Massie because you previously mentioned them as possible taggers and in all honesty Shirley ********s all over them as far as tagging goes. Having said that both are better players than Shirley but not better taggers.

 

[outback jack]

stiffy, i cant remember mattner getting many tagger roles with the crows unless your talking about SANFL. Stenglein was always our tagger, and sometimes shirely, but matter was almost always off half back or a pocket under ayres. Craigy his him on a wing it looks like. He could be a tagger when his body develops hes a strong tackler, but you need a strong body to tag inside types, and hes only starting to get that now

 

[Stiffy_18]

stiffy, i cant remember mattner getting many tagger roles with the crows unless your talking about SANFL. Stenglein was always our tagger, and sometimes shirely, but matter was almost always off half back or a pocket under ayres. Craigy his him on a wing it looks like. He could be a tagger when his body develops hes a strong tackler, but you need a strong body to tag inside types, and hes only starting to get that now

In 2003 I remember clearly when Ayres was giving Mattner tagging roles. He stood Woewodin and he got smashed. He stood Brnet Harvey and was well beaten. He also was given a run with role on James Hird and got absolutely killed in just over a quarter of footy so Ayres moved Hart on Jimmy.

While your suggestion of need for a better developed body to play as a tagger has some merit, and it might improve him as a tagger, it is not the reason why I think Mattner is wouldn't make a good tagger. Marty's biggest hurdle in being a tagger is his lack of ability to concentrate for long periods of time. His positioning, when playing on these inside midfielders is very average. Some players have it some don't and I honestly think that Mattner doesn't have the neccessary skill to be a tagger.

Having said that, I think he could become a very good wingman or a HBF. Has some real pace, a thumping kick and is by far the best tackler we have in the side and one of the best in the AFL.

 

[theorangeapple]

Kane Cornes?

IMO Adelaide should follow this example and develop a Van Berlo or Hinge as a run with player who can hopefully become a premier on baller.

yeh, i'll pay that. cornes was good as a tagger early in his career but i cant think of many more. i get the feeling kane would have been quality no matter what position he played in the middle. dont forget, taggers are targeted by clubs and a picked off on a regular basis, players are instructed to take down the tagger at every oppourtunity. personally, i think you are better off playing the young guys on the flank with runs in the middle.

 

[outback jack]

In 2003 I remember clearly when Ayres was giving Mattner tagging roles. He stood Woewodin and he got smashed. He stood Brnet Harvey and was well beaten. He also was given a run with role on James Hird and got absolutely killed in just over a quarter of footy so Ayres moved Hart on Jimmy.

While your suggestion of need for a better developed body to play as a tagger has some merit, and it might improve him as a tagger, it is not the reason why I think Mattner is wouldn't make a good tagger. Marty's biggest hurdle in being a tagger is his lack of ability to concentrate for long periods of time. His positioning, when playing on these inside midfielders is very average. Some players have it some don't and I honestly think that Mattner doesn't have the neccessary skill to be a tagger.

Having said that, I think he could become a very good wingman or a HBF. Has some real pace, a thumping kick and is by far the best tackler we have in the side and one of the best in the AFL.

i dont remember mattner going on to jimmy, but if that was the case it says a lot about ayres. We cant expect that much from mattner. And on concentration, i dont think a lot of our guys show enough really, that is more an attitude and direction thing by the coach, some of the guys have to be told what is good enough and what isnt.

i agree though he is most likely to be a wing/hbf, with his pace, so he can break the lines. hes needs to get consistent tagging roles to be fairly judged, bit like kane got, he had a whole season of it. Good coaches giving him guidance would help too, not sure how much of that ayresy would have given him. Strength really is crucial to those inside roles though, and he is only getting that now.

Shirley lacks a bit of class, he often gets pinged for pushing guys in the back and just doesnt seem to learn from it. Hope thats fixed this yr. he is probably our only option though these other types are either a youngster which i reckon is the way to go, or a mid-aged HBF which is a joke.