Coach John Longmire - Part III

[bedford]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly am!

Being a great footballer does not mean you are a great coach, as we have seen time and time again. Currently there are 18 coaches, and about 5 others that some of the people on this board believe could be good.

All those people you have listed were greats of the game, but are commentators now. Do you really think that competitive spirit has left them? If they could coach, they would be... they'd be out there with the boys, competing with everything they've got!

But they can't, so they whinge and speculate like the rest of us! Put forth theories for why people are playing well, and why they're not. They did everything they could to remove Dimmer and Buckley, and then when it turned out they were wrong, they just acted like it had never happened!!!

All of this is a regular occurrence in Australia, and it has a name... it's called Tall Poppy Syndrome! Ringing any bells?

And there is PC as well . I listened to JB and that is good enough for me as he bleeds Red and White ! Things arn't always rosy

 

[Kirkswan]

Lol most of those listed would be on mega bucks in the media

I doubt that many of them would be on the same kind of money as John, but regardless, it's not relevant to my comment.

To be a great, you need to be a true competitor, and that generally doesn't go away... it's a personality trait.

Remember Dermott especially could of coached quite a few times

Really? Are you saying he was asked and said no? Was this a rumour or did a club come out and say they were chasing Dermott?

Not everyone who criticises Sydney has an agenda

I'm not suggesting for one minute that any of those people have an agenda. Tall Poppy Syndrome is not about a group of people who set out to attack someone, there is no agenda... It's an extreme result of the 'us and them' categorisation that most of us do without ever thinking about it. We all do it, we denigrate Richmond supporters, or Doggie supporters... or cheating umpires [who all obviously deserve it!].

As I understand it, it dates back to tribes and by the time our kids are talking, they are doing it too!

 

[bedford]

Turn it up.

 

[Kummerspeck]

In the last 2 weeks alone I've heard the following list of ex players/media experts state that the Swans game plan is a problem:

Jude Bolton
Chris Judd
Gary Lyon
Dermott Brereton
Wayne Carey
Cameron Ling
Wayne Schwass
David King
Matthew Lloyd

Can you share these pieces please?

And there is PC as well

Stop shoehorning that in wherever you can. You've been looking too many UPF posts on Facebook.

 

[Kirkswan]

And there is PC as well . I listened to JB and that is good enough for me as he bleeds Red and White ! Things arn't always rosy

If by PC you're meaning politically correct, then I don't know what that comment is in reference to?

If JB is Jude Bolton, then yes I agree he bleeds red & white... don't know how much coaching experience he has though. Do you?

And no, things aren't always rosy, like right now... It's not very rosy at all. But that doesn't not mean that I should no longer question what I hear, read or see. That I should accept as fact other peoples opinions. I like stats, much more reliable that human perception which is influenced by numerous unrelated factors such as emotion, stress, and what everyone else things. But even stats can be manipulated to provide the right outcome...

So again, it all comes down to opinion...

 

[Kirkswan]

Seems you can trust media , supporters, ex players, basically only Horse himself can critique the gameplan/coaching I guess

I'm thinking you meant 'can't'

Why would you say this? I said nothing even remotely like that... I don't recall saying anyone couldn't criticise Horse or his game plan, I certainly didn't say that the people named were not trustworthy. I merely wondered if their credentials as past players made them qualified to critique a coach...

Could it be that you saying that you are allowed to post opinions but I'm not allowed to discuss them, critique them or disagree with them?

 

[Kirkswan]

Turn it up.

What exactly?

 

[bedford]

If by PC you're meaning politically correct, then I don't know what that comment is in reference to?

If JB is Jude Bolton, then yes I agree he bleeds red & white... don't know how much coaching experience he has though. Do you?

And no, things aren't always rosy, like right now... It's not very rosy at all. But that doesn't not mean that I should no longer question what I hear, read or see. That I should accept as fact other peoples opinions. I like stats, much more reliable that human perception which is influenced by numerous unrelated factors such as emotion, stress, and what everyone else things. But even stats can be manipulated to provide the right outcome...

So again, it all comes down to opinion...

That's correct , so let people disagree without perfectness.

 

[bedford]

Can you share these pieces please?


Stop shoehorning that in wherever you can. You've been looking too many UPF posts on Facebook.

Are you a stalker , each to their own champ , good and bad in all and believe me you are off topic . WTFDTFTC

 

[Grand Uncle Horace]

I'm thinking you meant 'can't'

Why would you say this? I said nothing even remotely like that... I don't recall saying anyone couldn't criticise Horse or his game plan, I certainly didn't say that the people named were not trustworthy. I merely wondered if their credentials as past players made them qualified to critique a coach...

Could it be that you saying that you are allowed to post opinions but I'm not allowed to discuss them, critique them or disagree with them?

You did use the whingers term. Still no biggie. There is some on that list I have little respect for- notably M Lloyd.

 

[Kirkswan]

That's correct , so let people disagree without perfectness.

No you too...

What are you saying here bedford, that you can disagree but I can't challenge that? Or that I should just accept you disagree and say nothing?

For the record, I don't require perfectness from anyone or anything... but if something is posted, I'm allowed to comment and you and anyone else are allowed to ignore me!

 

[Kirkswan]

You did use the whingers term. Still no biggie. There is some on that list I have little respect for- notably M Lloyd.

True, I did use whingers, but I did mean it respectfully. I was saying that we all do, all of us keyboard warriors, whinge and speculate on what could have, should have or would have been done if we were in charge.

Most of the commentators are just doing their job, and providing a commentary most likely to be acceptable to their largest audience. That is after all, what they are paid to do. They fuel speculation, keep AFL at the forefront of everyone's mind. Things like the 'buddy' trade... pure made up nonsense, but it was flashed around by a fair few respected commentators from what I've heard. I respect them for successfully transitioning from the peak of football careers into journalism, which some might feel is easy, but not me. I think that they've worked hard to become successful in a second profession, and that's a difficult thing to do...

 

[bedford]

No you too...

What are you saying here bedford, that you can disagree but I can't challenge that? Or that I should just accept you disagree and say nothing?

For the record, I don't require perfectness from anyone or anything... but if something is posted, I'm allowed to comment and you and anyone else are allowed to ignore me!

Just had a gutful from some and you seem to want it all so nice and perfect . We are 1-4 that's shithouse, we have lost to 4 shit clubs and only won against another pack of shit.Just accept that things are not good

 

[Kirkswan]

Just had a gutful from some and you seem to want it all so nice and perfect . We are 1-4 that's shithouse, we have lost to 4 shit clubs and only won against another pack of shit.Just accept that things are not good

Things aren't good mate, I don't need to accept, I can see it...

 

[Mick Oxlong]

This is like two of my favorite posters going at it. I’m happy to jump in with a few other favorite posters...who wants a scotch?

 

[Wolftone]

So now we’re not discussing Longmire but his replacement?

#offtopic

It has to happen eventually Bruce. He has been in charge 9 years. One premiership. Success in any footy competition is not measured in how many finals you compete in but how much silverware you bring to the club. You ask Malcolm Blight. All those years at the Cats with no result. He was frustrated. He realised he made mistakes.

At Adelaide he vowed not to make the same mistakes. He got success. He changed the style they played. Crows had the talent but no conduit to meld it. The type of footy they were playing just did not fit the talent they had. We are in a similar position now. We have a drafted a different type of player to the dour, hard, scrappers we used to draft. The players we have now are far more talented because most of our picks in the last few years have been lower picks than before because we have not been trading.

We can't continue to play negating footy. To play an energy sapping defence focused game where all our attacks start in the back line. All teams are a wake up to this style now and set up to stop our forward movement from defence. This creates turnovers and much more time spent trying to extract the ball from the last line. This is energy sapping and eventually the dam bursts. It also. Means our scoreboard pressure is negligible because we don't hit the scoreboard. Our zone forward defence does not work under the new kick out rules. It allows too much room and the overlap starts earlier than normal. Alternatively it allows them to set up deep and kick the ball long down the guts. Splitting us like a lamb to the spit.

New tactics are being worked on by other coaches every week to combat or use the new rules effectively. Our coaches seem to have been left in arrears. They did try the winger off the defensive side of the square dropping back but he just got bypassed. That move was typically defensive and regressive. It gave the opposition one more at the contest and the winger was caught in no man's land.

So yes this is the time to review where Horse's tenure is as a coach. How are the tactics he is using working? Is he getting the best out of the talent at his disposal? Where will the club be in five years time under his guidance? The reality is that his game style and tactics are outdated and ultra defensive. The sides who are prospering under these new rules play a very attacking game. Thry use attack as defence, running in waves with numbers at the ball. Not numbers behind the ball like us. We dan't have the numbers at the coalface to score enough to win games. We don't gat the ball forward enough to win games.

Please don't anybody bring up the age of our side. Other sides with a younger group are doing far better, Richmond for example. It is the style of game we play that is killing us not age.

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[Wolftone]

In the last 2 weeks alone I've heard the following list of ex players/media experts state that the Swans game plan is a problem:

Jude Bolton
Chris Judd
Gary Lyon
Dermott Brereton
Wayne Carey
Cameron Ling
Wayne Schwass
David King
Matthew Lloyd

Between that lot there are over 2,000 senior AFL Games, 20 premierships, a brownlow, and countless other individual honours.

Are you suggesting that these guys are all incorrect and don't know what they're talking about?

You can add the greatest player and one of the greatest coaches of all time, Lethal. He said it last year.

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[Wolftone]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly am!

Being a great footballer does not mean you are a great coach, as we have seen time and time again. Currently there are 18 coaches, and about 5 others that some of the people on this board believe could be good.

All those people you have listed were greats of the game, but are commentators now. Do you really think that competitive spirit has left them? If they could coach, they would be... they'd be out there with the boys, competing with everything they've got!

But they can't, so they whinge and speculate like the rest of us! Put forth theories for why people are playing well, and why they're not. They did everything they could to remove Dimmer and Buckley, and then when it turned out they were wrong, they just acted like it had never happened!!!

All of this is a regular occurrence in Australia, and it has a name... it's called Tall Poppy Syndrome! Ringing any bells?

Four of the game's best coaches also knocked our game plan. Lethal, Walls, Malthouse and Parkin. The other coach who has said it very clearly is Wallace. So it ain't just the ex players it is the ex coaches. Those first four have at least 12 premierships between them.

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[bedford]

Four of the game's best coaches also knocked our game plan. Lethal, Walls, Malthouse and Parkin. The other coach who has said it very clearly is Wallace. So it ain't just the ex players it is the ex coaches. Those first four have at least 12 premierships between them.

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Terry has been at it like me since halfway through 17

 

[Tedeski]

And there is PC as well . I listened to JB and that is good enough for me as he bleeds Red and White ! Things arn't always rosy

Did Jude say we should change the coach?
I may have missed that part.

 

[Wolftone]

If by PC you're meaning politically correct, then I don't know what that comment is in reference to?

If JB is Jude Bolton, then yes I agree he bleeds red & white... don't know how much coaching experience he has though. Do you?

And no, things aren't always rosy, like right now... It's not very rosy at all. But that doesn't not mean that I should no longer question what I hear, read or see. That I should accept as fact other peoples opinions. I like stats, much more reliable that human perception which is influenced by numerous unrelated factors such as emotion, stress, and what everyone else things. But even stats can be manipulated to provide the right outcome...

So again, it all comes down to opinion...

Jude Bolton actually is a very astute judge. He didn't once say Buckley should have been sacked. He anylised their game plan and execution instead. I trust his judgement. He, has nothing against Horse as he was coached by Horse in his capacity as Line Coach as well as Head Coach. So he has no agenda. As I have already mentioned in a previous post even some of the most respected coaches in the game were questioning our game plan. Not only that they are now questioning our selection process, because our selections are sometimes baffling against some sides. For instance playing a huge forward structure against a fast running defensive unit. That just doesn't make sense.

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[bedford]

Did Jude say we should change the coach?
I may have missed that part.

He's not going to say that straight out , he doesn't operate like that.

 

[Kirkswan]

Thanks for putting in your two cents worth, Wolftone. As it happens, I disagree with a fair bit of that.

It may well be time for Longmire to move on, and it is certainly time for a review. I would be amazed if the whole team including the coaching wasn't reviewed at the end of every season. Longmire has been at the club for a long time and has two years left to run in his contract. Imo, he will not leave before his contract is up, so that brings us to the end of 2020.

Absolutely no point reviewing him against other teams, at the end of the season our position on the ladder tells us how we went overall. But in the nitty gritty, we don't have the same players, grounds, facilities or staff... way to many variables. No point comparing us to teams and coaches of 10 and 20 years ago, too much has changed for that to be relevant, imo.

You talk about continuing to play the same negative game style, but I'm pretty sure that we don't. I'm pretty sure that Johns game plan and style has evolved over the last 9 years, and while I might not be able to put it into words, it becomes pretty clear when you watch a few games consecutively from each consecutive year.

You say don't raise youth, because other teams have youth and they're doing fine. Well what about Carlton, they're not doing so well. And what about St Kilda? They were atrocious last year, and this year they must be coming close to winning more games than they did all year. And how many teams have the same game in 24-27 year old players? And do you think that has an impact or not...

Harley has clearly said we are not in the business of sacrificing games for a rebuild, so while we might have lots of young players, they clearly need to step up. But we are definitely in the middle of a rebuild, and we are putting more game time into our youngsters than any other team.

It may well be time for Longmire to move on, but not because of his game plan or his game style imo.

 

[bedford]

Morning Kirkie how are you.

 

[Kirkswan]

Jude Bolton actually is a very astute judge. He didn't once say Buckley should have been sacked. He anylised their game plan and execution instead. I trust his judgement. He, has nothing against Horse as he was coached by Horse in his capacity as Line Coach as well as Head Coach. So he has no agenda. As I have already mentioned in a previous post even some of the most respected coaches in the game were questioning our game plan. Not only that they are now questioning our selection process, because our selections are sometimes baffling against some sides. For instance playing a huge forward structure against a fast running defensive unit. That just doesn't make sense.

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I haven't said that Jude isn't astute, I simply wondered at his credentials. Which of the current coaches has gone on record against Horse?

Anyone who is currently working in the media and has no recent hands on experience, well I don't give their judgement as much credit as you do. Do the Swans coaching unity and selection committee make mistakes? Of course they do!!! They're human just like the rest of us.