Toast John McCarthy

[FIGJAM]

Good game from the kid after just a couple of quarters of a VFL praccy match.

Had a very high amount of score involvements (probably the highest of either team), used the ball well and exhibited hardness at the ball.

Surprised there are people on here knocking his performance. It was good and toast worthy.

 

[kevind]

The difference between Stanley and McCarthy is that McCarthy has some AFL form. As a first year player (and one who missed the pre-season at that) McCarthy came in and performed to a reasonable standard late in the season and in finals after Didak and Heater's incident. Unfortunately he then got injured and missed a large part of the early season the next year. Stanley (who I still think could play a role at another club, and was mainly rated due to our need for an inside player and his ability in that regard) was always fit, where as McCarthy for a long time would spend long times on the sideline with injuries play a handful of VFL games be rushed into the senior side, perform poorly be dropped go back to the VFL and get injured again.

On McCarthy the huge gap in ratings tends to be on the ugly word potential. McCarthy at least a few times in his early games and again on Saturday night showed all the skills you would want in a midfielder, and the ability to do some really sublime things. Perfectly weighted kicks, great hardball gets, good balance, and clean hands when in contested situations. Unfortunately this has over the course of his career being mixed with low possesion numbers at AFL level, and a lack of awareness when carrying the ball in space.

He clearly has a lot of the skills you would want to work with in a footballer, the question will be whether his body gives him a chance to iron out the flaws and whether he is able too. As others have mentioned there is a number of decent options chasing.

Perfect summary.

As you say, McCarthy has shown glimpses, Stanley did not. Stanley was lacking in foot skills, pace and awareness which was unfortunate as he obviously had the desire and application. McCarthy has skills to work with.

He is a difficult player to be absolutely sure about at this stage. Not entirely convinced by the WCE game, but at least there is some promise.

 

[Old Spice]

Didn't see the game so can't comment on it but I reckon McCarthy can play. The problem is so can a lot of other midfielders on the list now. The smart move would be to play him against the ordinary sides and build a trade value for him if we can do that without causing issues. Geelong got a price for Prismal on the basis he could play but was behind premiership players.

I also thought exactly the same thing, he's like our Prismall, in a lot of respects, except I think he exhibits better skills.

His kicking into the forward line a few times was just perfect, tittesque. A bit of rust and nerves, a la Buckley, but good signs. If he can get 20 possessions a game and hit Dawes and Cloke on the boobies like that 3-4 times a game, I'd be pretty happy.

That said, his game would have been good enough to be retained, but wasn't enough to break into the seniors.

 

[Thommo 42]

Agree with all thse points, but Stanley was treated harshly imo.

He was never given an opportunity as a midfielder at AFL level, and never played consecutive games. I'm not sure how well McCarthy would go if he came in on debut and was placed at Full-back on Russell Robertson in full flight.

I'll be watching him with interest at the GC to see how he goes.

 

[OniAu]

hes going to fimnd it tough to crack a spot in the 22. Three young guys in wellers, beams and sidey are pretty much playing his position. So he has to have some decent form if hes gonna get a game.

I cant believe people are writing him off and saying he wont be around in 2012 after compromised drafts. On top of that we held on to ryan cook for longer than we should have.

 

[sr36]

Agree with all thse points, but Stanley was treated harshly imo.

He was never given an opportunity as a midfielder at AFL level, and never played consecutive games. I'm not sure how well McCarthy would go if he came in on debut and was placed at Full-back on Russell Robertson in full flight.

I'll be watching him with interest at the GC to see how he goes.

I like Stanley, but these comments about him being hard done by, that are often heard, really annoy me. Firstly how many players are gifted spots in the midfield without having to earn their dues on a flank. It certainly took Swan, Thomas and Didak a while to become midfielders. Blair, Sidebottom and Beams who all appear to be natural mids are still primarily used as flankers. Secondly, before being selected to play against Melbourne, Stanley wasn't even playing as a midfielder for the ressies. He earnt his promotion through performing well as a back pocket/flanker - including a game where he did a good job on Russell Robertson a couple of weeks before his senior debut. So when Harry did his ankle, he was the logical choice for Robertson. He wasn't thrown into alien territory. It was the back pocket role which he'd been doing in the ressies. He kept getting dropped because at senior level he showed no sign of adjusting to the tempo of AFL. Most youngsters struggle with the adjustment, but they tend to get better as a game goes on - Stanley seemed to get worse in this regard and seemed to become slower to respond.

 

[FIGJAM]

Stanley wasn't and isn't up to AFL level. I will say however that he did suffer from 'instant performance required' syndrome, from both the fans and the coaching staff. I doubt he'd have made it eitherway though, but that is partially irrelevant, as the likes of Cook (who was far shitter) had an extended run.

McCarthy suffers from 'instant performance required' syndrome from our fans, especially those who couldn't spot talent from their own arse. He's had to step in a number of times for various reasons and has usually not disgraced himself, or done better than this, yet is always expected to do more.

Here's hoping he can get on top of injuries, because if he does he'll prove his doubters fools.

 

[Somebody]

Is our most naturally gifted clearance winner, when fit. Go the Forehead.

Looks like you're getting a caning for this comment, but I wouldn't be at all surprised if he became our Shaun Burgoyne or N Buckley in the next 2 seasons. Just a hunch though.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

Stanley wasn't and isn't up to AFL level.

Maybe so but he's in my Dreamteam!

 

[MarkT2]

And probably also make CollingwoodFC hierarchy think twice, too...

You gotta give to get. It's eitehr draft opicks or players if you want something. Right now we probably don't have any real holes so the only reason we should trade any talent is to upgrade in the draft IMO. Last year though we cleary did have holes. In the end they players cost us draft picks. I'd now like to work on getting back into the draft pool - as high up as possible. That is where depth comes in very handy.

 

[MarkT2]

And probably also make CollingwoodFC hierarchy think twice, too...

You gotta give to get. It's either draft picks or players if you want something. Right now we probably don't have any real holes so the only reason we should trade any talent is to upgrade in the draft IMO. Last year though we cleary did have holes. In the end the players we needed cost us draft picks. I'd now like to work on getting back into the draft pool - as high up as possible. That is where depth comes in very handy.

 

[Old Spice]

You gotta give to get. It's eitehr draft opicks or players if you want something. Right now we probably don't have any real holes so the only reason we should trade any talent is to upgrade in the draft IMO. Last year though we cleary did have holes. In the end they players cost us draft picks. I'd now like to work on getting back into the draft pool - as high up as possible. That is where depth comes in very handy.

True enough, if a player can't get a gig, then it's best for all involved to move them on and to climb a few spots in the draft, picking a player that will come on in 2-3 years.

That said, I think J-Mac offers something fairly important to us in speed and dash, a la Wellingham. Looks might deceive me there, but he strikes me as pretty quick to dispose of ball and a nice kick.

Still, agree with the general proposition - got to thatch the roof while the sun's shining.

 

[MarkT2]

Where did i question his ability
I said I wouldn't touch him because he's always injured and that in terms of value he'd be worth more to us than any other club. At this point in time imo he hasn't done enough in the seniors (ala Stanley) and 6 good games wouldn't change that a great deal, but Malthouse rates him and that's good enough for me because he very rarely gets it wrong!

OK I assumed you didn't rate McCarthy so apologies for getting that wrong. I diasagree about what half a dozen games in a top side can do for a reputation though - see Prismal at Geelong. Essendon under Sheedy were past masters. We got suckered with Glen McLean a long way back and a few more since then.

As for MM he has got plenty wrong. I actually don't really rate him that highly as a judge of young talent - particularly comparred to someone like Mathews. I think Hine has been the real improvement for us in that regard.

 

[MarkT2]

That said, I think J-Mac offers something fairly important to us....

I didn't raise his as trade potential becasue I didn't rate only becuase we have midfield depth and we've traded away some picks in recent years. No issue with these trades because we filled the holes and won the flag. That's actually the name of the game but now, as you say, time to thatch.

 

[Number 10]

Where'd my post go?

Summary: De-list him at the end of the year.
List-clogger, puts pressure on our players every time he disposes of the ball. i.e doesn't have the vision of a real footballer

 

[Scodog10]

As for MM he has got plenty wrong. I actually don't really rate him that highly as a judge of young talent - particularly comparred to someone like Mathews. I think Hine has been the real improvement for us in that regard.

Maybe he can do that it remains to be seen and I'd love to improve our position this year and get our teeth right into the 1st round of the draft, but I think clubs are a hell of a lot more intelligent these days when it comes to trading players into their club (except St Kilda lol).

I didn't mean as a judge of bringing talent to the club (recruiting isn't his job and he should probably leave it to the professionals) I meant more in letting blokes go once they're at the club, because he usually has them well pegged. I'd say the only players to leave under his reign and prove us wrong were Williams and Davis. God himself couldn't have convinced Davis to stay and Willo needed a change of scenery anyway. Anthony might, but i doubt he ever really fit into the Collingwood group.

 

[Old Spice]

Scotland goes okay.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

Scotland goes okay.

Sav Rocca was reasonable too wasn't he?

EDIT: Just read the other post. Obviously Sav wasn't a draftee under Judkins (Sorry)

 

[Old Spice]

Sav Rocca was reasonable too wasn't he?

Well, if power forwards that kick 50+ metre goals are your thing, I guess so.

 

[MarkT2]

MM has let a few go. Even Betheras was a mistake IMO. He's also kept a few too long and took a few from WCE is the erarly days that hurt us a bit. If he had any say in the McKee deal he'll never get his nose in front.

We won the flag so it all becomes far less an issue now.

McCarthy, on the other hand, has some talent but is up against a lot of talent. I'd had to have him free to one of the new clubs and bite us on the arse. There are 2 clubs that might well be interested in a trade for a still young mid that has been through the best development system in the country. Saints might also take a bit more notice of who we are prepared to trade now that is has been show we are prepared to trade players more than capable of improving enough to be well and truly in their best 22. McCarthy fits that bill IMO. Carlton gave up pick 11 for McLean didn’t they? Sydney took McGlin & Kennedy who didn't exactly set the world on fire at Hawthorn.

 

[Ed D]

MM has let a few go. Even Betheras was a mistake IMO. He's also kept a few too long and took a few from WCE is the erarly days that hurt us a bit. If he had any say in the McKee deal he'll never get his nose in front.

We won the flag so it all becomes far less an issue now.

McCarthy, on the other hand, has some talent but is up against a lot of talent. I'd had to have him free to one of the new clubs and bite us on the arse. There are 2 clubs that might well be interested in a trade for a still young mid that has been through the best development system in the country. Saints might also take a bit more notice of who we are prepared to trade now that is has been show we are prepared to trade players more than capable of improving enough to be well and truly in their best 22. McCarthy fits that bill IMO. Carlton gave up pick 11 for McLean didn’t they? Sydney took McGlin & Kennedy who didn't exactly set the world on fire at Hawthorn.

The difference with those players is that they had all played a fair bit of football at a high level, whereas McCarthy hasn't. To be honest I think we'd be getting a 3rd round pick or later for him unless he has a solid year. To me that means unless you're going to delist him you hold onto him.

In saying that I wouldn't want to see him traded, I think he offers something to the team. It's really all down to him and his body holding up more than anything else.

 

[The Magnificent Seven]

The difference with those players is that they had all played a fair bit of football at a high level, whereas McCarthy hasn't. To be honest I think we'd be getting a 3rd round pick or later for him unless he has a solid year. To me that means unless you're going to delist him you hold onto him.

In saying that I wouldn't want to see him traded, I think he offers something to the team. It's really all down to him and his body holding up more than anything else.

Maybe. But...

2005 - Jack Anthony (Rd 3)
2006 - Brad Dick (Rd 3), Tyson Goldsack (Rd 4)
2008 - Luke Rounds (Rd 3)
2009 - Ben Sinclair (Rd 4), Josh Thomas (Rd 5)
2010 - Kirk Ugle (Rd 3)

Is there that much difference between a Rd 2 (which was what McCarthy was) and Rd 3 pick?

FWIW I still think hang on to him, but given the maturity of our recruitment and development teams there could be the case for an end-of-year trade quite easily.

 

[Timmy from Thomastown]

MM has let a few go.

Not many that matter.

Betheras might have had a year left in him. But he was no superstar.
Rocca had to go. We had no room for Sav and Anthony in the one team. What we did wrong with Sav is get nothing for him.
Davis walked.
Tarrant was traded because we needed to send a message about the standard of behaviour required. It brought us a flag
R Shaw was traded for the same reason.
Scotland was one that got away. He walked because he didnt like MM and didnt think he'd had enough opportunities. Would he have made a difference to our midfield? Probably not.
Its a bit early to call on Jack Anthony but our depth seems good enought that we wont miss him. Already I am far more excited about Lachie Keefe than I ever was about Jack.

Then theres Nixon, Davies, McGough, and others who other clubs picked up and wondered why they did.

There arent many ex Collingwood players that I'd look back at and wonder "what-if". Maybe Michael (but I think that was pre-Malthouse) but even if the trade for Molloy was a disaster, we never missed Michael as we always had excellent key defenders.

And of course Paul Williams who was also probably pre Malthouse. We definitely lost a gem there but by the same token picked up Holland and Clement as compensation so we were well rewarded.

 

[kevind]

Scotland was one that got away. He walked because he didnt like MM and didnt think he'd had enough opportunities. Would he have made a difference to our midfield?

And of course Paul Williams who was also probably pre Malthouse. We definitely lost a gem there but by the same token picked up Holland and Clement as compensation so we were well rewarded.

More the other way around. Due to some off field shenanigans, Scotland was called into MM's office and told that he would never again play for Collingwood. So he had no real choice but to walk.

Williams IMO was a disaster. He was the second best player at the club at the time.

Was Liam Jurrah a loss as well ???? Never on our list, but surely we should have had him tied up.

 

[RattataIsSoCool]

Played well last week, would've been in our best half a dozen. Will play a fair bit of senior footy this year if his body holds up. He'd make quite a good sub player.