Jonty Scharenberg

[marty36]

WA and SA are the ones refusing to budge. The funding is there but they won't take it because they're too stubborn to pass on the development programs like Vic did.
They're the ones creating the problem.

It's not there problem, if the players they do develop aren't good enough to make the elite league they will replenish their own leagues

If they develop better player they will lose them to the AFL

Please explain why it's the SANFL or WAFLs problem

 

[Apex36]

It's not there problem, if the players they do develop aren't good enough to make the elite league they will replenish their own leagues

If they develop better player they will lose them to the AFL

Please explain why it's the SANFL or WAFLs problem

It's not their problem if their development is crap and they're forced to take a higher percentage of interstate players, increasing the liklihood of players returning to their home states? Also decreasing the amount of SA players potentially asking to be traded back to SA?

Ok then.

 

[marty36]

It's not their problem if their development is crap and they're forced to take a higher percentage of interstate players, increasing the liklihood of players returning to their home states? Also decreasing the amount of SA players potentially asking to be traded back to SA?

Ok then.

Have you lost it

The SANFL and WAFL aren't the Crows, Power and West Coat and freo

They are state leagues running their own comps they don't own the licences

So why do they care about developing players for a comp that isn't theirs?

 

[Apex36]

Have you lost it

The SANFL and WAFL aren't the Crows, Power and West Coat and freo

They are state leagues running their own comps they don't own the licences

So why do they care about developing players for a comp that isn't theirs?

And this is why the AFL won't fund their junior programs. If they don't give a s**t about their juniors getting drafted then why should the AFL provide a cent towards their junior development programs?

 

[Cleric]

It's not their problem if their development is crap and they're forced to take a higher percentage of interstate players, increasing the liklihood of players returning to their home states? Also decreasing the amount of SA players potentially asking to be traded back to SA?

Ok then.

Its not about a lack of SA talent, considering how SA has dominated the u16s and u18s the last few years. It has to do with the type of players SA is producing and the fact that AFL teams over value TAC cup talent and under value SA and WA talent.
Thats fine, give the SA.and WA clubs academies and watch that turn around.

 

[Apex36]

Its not about a lack of SA talent, considering how SA has dominated the u16s and u18s the last few years. It has to do with the type of players SA is producing and the fact that AFL teams over value TAC cup talent and under value SA and WA talent.
Thats fine, give the SA.and WA clubs academies and watch that turn around.

Your argument for getting academies is stupid. It's not going to happen.

 

[marty36]

And this is why the AFL won't fund their junior programs. If they don't give a s**t about their juniors getting drafted then why should the AFL provide a cent towards their junior development programs?

Hahaha because the AFL is looking thinner and thinner on talent these days and if you try and convert average footballers into elite because you need all from one state you are going to more average players playing. You need to find the elite across all of Australia.

Every sport does it, imagine if cycling Australia concentrated on one state their Olympic chances would fall in one big hole, same as swimming. Of course some states will develop more for obvious reasons and footy per capita will see WA and SA develop far more top end talent than QLD and NSW, Vic will still develop the most your population dwarfs ours

 

[Apex36]

Hahaha because the AFL is looking thinner and thinner on talent these days and if you try and convert average footballers into elite because you need all from one state you are going to more average players playing. You need to find the elite across all of Australia.

Every sport does it, imagine if cycling Australia concentrated on one state their Olympic chances would fall in one big hole, same as swimming. Of course some states will develop more for obvious reasons and footy per capita will see WA and SA develop far more top end talent than QLD and NSW, Vic will still develop the most your population dwarfs ours

We just had what was regarded as the deepest draft for years yet the AFL is thin on talent...

Ok then.

 

[marty36]

We just had what was regarded as the deepest draft for years yet the AFL is thin on talent...

Ok then.

Let's wait and see, media are hyping everything up including the fact that 9 players got picked up from NsW but can't field a stand alone team in the championships as they will get flogged by WA , SA and Vic Infact the allies being a combo team got flogged by SA yet only 6 players from SA got picked up. That in itself is showing how overhyped the nsw. Players are by the media

Remember only 35% of kids drafted play over 100 games on average so don't care how deep the draft is the majority don't make it or maybe the standard is dropping

 

[HedgeFund]

Hahaha because the AFL is looking thinner and thinner on talent these days and if you try and convert average footballers into elite because you need all from one state you are going to more average players playing. You need to find the elite across all of Australia.

Every sport does it, imagine if cycling Australia concentrated on one state their Olympic chances would fall in one big hole, same as swimming. Of course some states will develop more for obvious reasons and footy per capita will see WA and SA develop far more top end talent than QLD and NSW, Vic will still develop the most your population dwarfs ours

Possibly the most ill educated comparison of sports I've ever read.

How many gun Tasmanian and Territorian swimmers can you name? Yep, stuff all and the funding for swimming in this states per capita is a fraction of Qld, NSW and Vic (where the vast majority of international medals come).

Cycling also targets its funding where it knows it will generate best returns through state based junior academies and squads.

Fact is cycling and swimming are sports which aren't geographically dictated by "tribal" or historical bias. Most people learn to swim and cycle and we don't harbour the same rugby/league "bum sniffer" -v- Aussie rules "aerial ping pong" prejudices depending on which state you grew up in.

As far as the AfL are concerned the southern four states are safe and sound as growth and marketing areas.....but the northern two states constantly need hands on player development through academy type programs to identify local based talent and SELL THE GAME to eat into viewership from rugby/league territory.

The AFL don't have the same need to develop locally grown talent in SA and WA through academies because they don't need to sell the game to parents in those states.

TAC Cup started in 1992. At that stage there was one AFL team in each of SA and WA, and 11 in Victoria. 6 TAC sides quickly expanded to 12 and are part of easily the best junior development competition in the country. SA and WA can't model their junior program on TAC Cup because their whole system started differently and continues to be different.

 

[Ants]

It's not about a lack of SA talent, considering how SA has dominated the u16s and u18s the last few years. It has to do with the type of players SA is producing and the fact that AFL teams over value TAC cup talent and under value SA and WA talent.
Thats fine, give the SA.and WA clubs academies and watch that turn around.

No, it isn't about SA talent. But not for the reasons you stated. Its already been pointed out that a criticism of the SA system is that it concentrates on winning the games over development (and hence prioritises players with quality U18 attributes who don't necessarily have AFL attributes). This is supported by the comments by your head of development (quoted earlier in the thread) that the SA kids survive longer in AFL in the norm. This suggests that the current system is getting elite talent through, but not second tier "possibles", since they're being replaced in the development cycle by players who are more likely to win at U18 level. The AFL clubs aren't biased to TAC unless it better presents draftable attributes for consideration - why would they? It would be cutting their own throat.

Ironically, this system means the AFL still gets its elite talent. SA gets its better success in the championships. And anyone who is fringe AFL chances gets shafted.

People are arguing that this should be "fixed" this via funding, or academies. But if the AFL will offer more funding but not get more control, why would SA change its strategy? Which as you say actually benefits SANFL clubs (at the cost of fringe draftees). Do they really care that they're perceived as having lower numbers through? And why would the AFL allow you to set up academies? They're already getting the elite talent through, why on earth would they give the SA clubs an armchair ride like they do with the northern clubs? There is already uproar with the fact GWS get an "AFL ready" area for their academy rather than having to build support in rugby areas. You're suggesting giving the two SA clubs half a state each of AFL supporting population!

Again, given the AFL gets the elite SA talent, why should they give out concessions or money unless they also get control?

Let's wait and see, media are hyping everything up including the fact that 9 players got picked up from NsW but can't field a stand alone team in the championships as they will get flogged by WA , SA and Vic Infact the allies being a combo team got flogged by SA yet only 6 players from SA got picked up. That in itself is showing how overhyped the nsw. Players are by the media

Remember only 35% of kids drafted play over 100 games on average so don't care how deep the draft is the majority don't make it or maybe the standard is dropping

Its already been pointed out an issue with the SA system is that they potentially focus on wins over playing kids with attributes that are potential AFL ready but not as ready to win games at U18 level. It may not be that NSW is over hyped, it may be that their top tier had more AFL attributes than the top tier (on show) from SA.

 

[marty36]

No, it isn't about SA talent. But not for the reasons you stated. Its already been pointed out that a criticism of the SA system is that it concentrates on winning the games over development (and hence prioritises players with quality U18 attributes who don't necessarily have AFL attributes). This is supported by the comments by your head of development (quoted earlier in the thread) that the SA kids survive longer in AFL in the norm. This suggests that the current system is getting elite talent through, but not second tier "possibles", since they're being replaced in the development cycle by players who are more likely to win at U18 level. The AFL clubs aren't biased to TAC unless it better presents draftable attributes for consideration - why would they? It would be cutting their own throat.

Ironically, this system means the AFL still gets its elite talent. SA gets its better success in the championships. And anyone who is fringe AFL chances gets shafted.

People are arguing that this should be "fixed" this via funding, or academies. But if the AFL will offer more funding but not get more control, why would SA change its strategy? Which as you say actually benefits SANFL clubs (at the cost of fringe draftees). Do they really care that they're perceived as having lower numbers through? And why would the AFL allow you to set up academies? They're already getting the elite talent through, why on earth would they give the SA clubs an armchair ride like they do with the northern clubs? There is already uproar with the fact GWS get an "AFL ready" area for their academy rather than having to build support in rugby areas. You're suggesting giving the two SA clubs half a state each of AFL supporting population!

Again, given the AFL gets the elite SA talent, why should they give out concessions or money unless they also get control?


Its already been pointed out an issue with the SA system is that they potentially focus on wins over playing kids with attributes that are potential AFL ready but not as ready to win games at U18 level. It may not be that NSW is over hyped, it may be that their top tier had more AFL attributes than the top tier (on show) from SA.

I agree that the SANFL as a stand alone comp will run their programmes the way they choose and not need worry about teh AFL and develop talent for that purpose they run mainly on volunteers and if those volunteers are dictated to on what top do they may quite, it wont actually affect their pay packets as they dont get paid.

As for NSW talent its pure media hype, the attributes you talk of is being one of the best players it doesnt matter if you can run exceptionally fast, or have the social skills required, we see Hodge and Dusty not having those attributes yet they are elite.

The media have built up the NSW acadamy they had 9 players drafted that is half of their first 18 yet wouldnt be able to put a stand alone team in the championship without getting flogged. Either the other 9 are just absolute donkeys or they are overated

 

[Ants]

I agree that the SANFL as a stand alone comp will run their programmes the way they choose and not need worry about teh AFL and develop talent for that purpose they run mainly on volunteers and if those volunteers are dictated to on what top do they may quite, it wont actually affect their pay packets as they dont get paid.

As for NSW talent its pure media hype, the attributes you talk of is being one of the best players it doesnt matter if you can run exceptionally fast, or have the social skills required, we see Hodge and Dusty not having those attributes yet they are elite.

The media have built up the NSW acadamy they had 9 players drafted that is half of their first 18 yet wouldnt be able to put a stand alone team in the championship without getting flogged. Either the other 9 are just absolute donkeys or they are overated

I think equating the media with what the club's 18 recruiting teams who are spending millions on recruitment seems a little silly. Those guys were picked up. I find it also funny you compare guys going post pick 20 in the draft who we're saying have AFL attributes with guys picked #1 and #3, or with having social skills. They're strawmen arguments. If you know much about recruiting, you would know the kinds of attributes that clubs look for in players outside of the top 20 or so when it is impossible to get complete draftees. Those attributes don't necessarily equate to being dominant at U18 level. And I suspect most would believe the bottom half of the NSW team would be pretty weak.

 

[marty36]

I think equating the media with what the club's 18 recruiting teams who are spending millions on recruitment seems a little silly. Those guys were picked up. I find it also funny you compare guys going post pick 20 in the draft who we're saying have AFL attributes with guys picked #1 and #3, or with having social skills. They're strawmen arguments. If you know much about recruiting, you would know the kinds of attributes that clubs look for in players outside of the top 20 or so when it is impossible to get complete draftees. Those attributes don't necessarily equate to being dominant at U18 level. And I suspect most would believe the bottom half of the NSW team would be pretty weak.

The clubs are punting a fair bit only 35% of all draftees will end up playing in excess of 150 AFL games, thats pretty low. In the top 20 it may be between 50% to 60% so a lot of failures by these so called proffesionals. But hey it is what it is, the AFL drivve the media machine and we all know why they are pushiing the Northern state propaganda, it is the only way possible for the sport to grow and generate the income for the AFL to continue to grow. Unfortunatly the whole culture in those states will need to alter. In SA, WA or Vic so many kids pick up their first footy at 3 or 4 years of age and try and kick one, in the northern states its more likely to be a Rugby ball. Things change over time but the AFL have one huge task to change it, good on them for giving it a crack

It will upsett a lot of supporters with the adbvantages given to these northern teams, but they really dont have an alternative to get to their goal

 

[TW Sherrin]

This thread is confusing.

So Jonty is now running the SANFL?

 

[marty36]

This thread is confusing.

So Jonty is now running the SANFL?

Hahaha no I think he plans on enjoying his footy having a kick and a catch for the bays a few beers with his mates and get on with life

 

[Asgardian]

So unless the AFL get control over the SA and WA state leagues, then screw jr development in those states?
That pretty much sums up the AFL.

You seem to have a persecution complex

The VFL cannot afford to run a junior competition that now reaches a standard of excellence that SA & WA do not get close to.

THE SANFL & WAFL have proven that they both are unable to consistently achieve that same level of excellence as the TAC Cup.

Why should the AFL prop up the SA & WA junior competitions without gaining the same control that it enjoys in Victoria?

The junior competitions in SA & WA should secede from the local clubs/organisations, the AFL takes over and runs the junior comps as they do in Victoria.

The SANFL & WAFL would then be left to running their local leagues with senior & reserves comps, pretty much the same as the VFL. I fail to see how that would be a terrible outcome? It makes sure the juniors throughout most of Australia are looked after to pretty much the same level.

I would love for my club to have a first choice academy, but reality says it is unlikely in the short to medium term. (maybe in another 25 - 30 years perhaps?)

 

[Cleric]

You seem to have a persecution complex

The VFL cannot afford to run a junior competition that now reaches a standard of excellence that SA & WA do not get close to.

THE SANFL & WAFL have proven that they both are unable to consistently achieve that same level of excellence as the TAC Cup.

Why should the AFL prop up the SA & WA junior competitions without gaining the same control that it enjoys in Victoria?

The junior competitions in SA & WA should secede from the local clubs/organisations, the AFL takes over and runs the junior comps as they do in Victoria.

The SANFL & WAFL would then be left to running their local leagues with senior & reserves comps, pretty much the same as the VFL. I fail to see how that would be a terrible outcome? It makes sure the juniors throughout most of Australia are looked after to pretty much the same level.

I would love for my club to have a first choice academy, but reality says it is unlikely in the short to medium term. (maybe in another 25 - 30 years perhaps?)

Take your anti SANFL bent back to the Port board where you will get your 30 likes for saying how bad they are every second thread. This is about jr development in SA, something Port dont know much about. Port Magpies hadnt produced a top 10 draftee in their last 12 years of having jr development for their Zone.

 

[Asgardian]

Take your anti SANFL bent back to the Port board where you will get your 30 likes for saying how bad they are every second thread. This is about jr development in SA, something Port dont know much about. Port Magpies hadnt produced a top 10 draftee in their last 12 years of having jr development for their Zone.

A personal tirade rather than tackling the issues, you mistaken this for the Bay

 

[Cleric]

A personal tirade rather than tackling the issues, you mistaken this for the Bay

Well how about you explain why the Magpies hadnt produced a top ten draftee in over 12 years then. They had one of the best zones in SA and yet totally neglected it. Why?

 

[dlanod]

Well how about you explain why the Magpies hadnt produced a top ten draftee in over 12 years then. They had one of the best zones in SA and yet totally neglected it. Why?

Sounds like an argument in favour of calling the AFL in to take over control of the junior comp if a single club can have such a negative impact on an area, given you're implying that the SANFL didn't and isn't going to address it.

 

[marty36]

Sounds like an argument in favour of calling the AFL in to take over control of the junior comp if a single club can have such a negative impact on an area, given you're implying that the SANFL didn't and isn't going to address it.

I agree, let the AFL go for it unfortunately they will only be able to play in the public school area, I'm sure the SANFL would encourage it, they don't have the funds to run it

 

[Cleric]

Sounds like an argument in favour of calling the AFL in to take over control of the junior comp if a single club can have such a negative impact on an area, given you're implying that the SANFL didn't and isn't going to address it.

We are talking about Port Adelaide Magpies here. Nothing in it for them, they wont put any development in.
The SANFL has all the infrastructure but not the money to put into development like the AFL has to pump into Victoria.
Its a money and resourses issue.

 

[Asgardian]

Well how about you explain why the Magpies hadnt produced a top ten draftee in over 12 years then. They had one of the best zones in SA and yet totally neglected it. Why?

We both know since 1997 Port Adelaide's presence within the SANFL were suffering under draconian conditions. The fact you now wish to ignore that says a lot about you.

Sounds like an argument in favour of calling the AFL in to take over control of the junior comp if a single club can have such a negative impact on an area, given you're implying that the SANFL didn't and isn't going to address it.

You have to remember that the hierarchy of the SANFL & most of the associated clubs is very much an old boys club who still hold deep & ingrained hatred & hostility towards Port because of the 1990 situation. Their most desired wish was for Port to die off and for them to then move in and create a new "whatever the **** they wanted to call it" entity totally under SANFL control.

Outside of South Australia, it is hard for footy people to accept that a state body and opposition clubs would want a club like Port to be killed off. Be that as it may, this is the attitude within SA, except for the Port faithful, that Port has had to operate in.

Now that Port no longer has any zones assigned to it by the SANFL, it's easy for jokers like Cleric to try and point score saying Port neglected the west coast.

Putting the petty SA mindset shown by many here aside, it makes total sense, logically & financially, for the AFL to run the junior competition.

If the VFL could see the writing on the wall, what makes the SANFL so blind? I believe I have already explained that.

 

[marty36]

We both know since 1997 Port Adelaide's presence within the SANFL were suffering under draconian conditions. The fact you now wish to ignore that says a lot about you.



You have to remember that the hierarchy of the SANFL & most of the associated clubs is very much an old boys club who still hold deep & ingrained hatred & hostility towards Port because of the 1990 situation. Their most desired wish was for Port to die off and for them to then move in and create a new "whatever the **** they wanted to call it" entity totally under SANFL control.

Outside of South Australia, it is hard for footy people to accept that a state body and opposition clubs would want a club like Port to be killed off. Be that as it may, this is the attitude within SA, except for the Port faithful, that Port has had to operate in.

Now that Port no longer has any zones assigned to it by the SANFL, it's easy for jokers like Cleric to try and point score saying Port neglected the west coast.

Putting the petty SA mindset shown by many here aside, it makes total sense, logically & financially, for the AFL to run the junior competition.

If the VFL could see the writing on the wall, what makes the SANFL so blind? I believe I have already explained that.

You seriously have an inferiority complex