Scape Goat Josh Caddy revisited

[Ricky Vaughn]

Wait a minute, if it's fair enough for some on here to deride the B&F results because a player or two are rated higher/lower than they think they should be, surely if I want I could give no credence to how this board rated players. Fairs fair.

You could, but just like those who denigrate the B&F votes, you'd be wasting a valuable resource in assessing player performance.

You can literally not watch a single game and conclude Jimmy Bartel was our best each week because he was first alphabetically,
and we know the alphabetical analysis only worked when Ablett was here.

 

[Landgraft]

It most certainly doesn't, I agree.

And, despite your concerns about this and other debatable matters, at least I know you'll keep your posting about the club objective and considered rather than embittered and snide.

Disagreeing with or questioning the club's decisions is entirely understandable, in my view. It's only when it's accompanied by overt derision and a vitriolic belittling of paid professionals with stacks more experience than we'll ever have that I find it incredibly distasteful.

This is exactly how I feel. Even the most vitriolic detractor posts good points, but they pad it out with pointless sniping as if denigrating the current direction of the club is a moral crusade or other similarly high calling. Ricky Vaughn is posting a measured and well supported criticism of our second tier mids inconsistency, happy to read stuff like that every day. Not at all interested in reading someones opinion piece based on accumulated bitterness.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

You could, but just like those who denigrate the B&F votes, you'd be wasting a valuable resource in assessing player performance.

You can literally not watch a single game and conclude Jimmy Bartel was our best each week because he was first alphabetically,
and we know the alphabetical analysis only worked when Ablett was here.

Without looking at stats or votes. Going purely off memory I'd have the top 10 footballers for us in 2016 as:

Dangerfield
Selwood
Enright



Guthrie
Lonergan
Henderson
Hawkins
Duncan
Taylor
Blicavs

Don't need no stats, just my impression of how we went. We were one of the most defensively solid teams in 2016 so naturally defenders feature here, the top 3 were streets ahead of the pack.

I think Guthrie was our next best player, down in defence or in the midfield he was able to contribute in both areas. Duncan was incredibly consistent in output on a weekly basis, just didn't have many "Wow" games.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Without looking at stats or votes. Going purely off memory I'd have the top 10 footballers for us in 2016 as:

Dangerfield
Selwood
Enright



Guthrie
Lonergan
Henderson
Hawkins
Duncan
Taylor
Blicavs

Don't need no stats, just my impression of how we went. We were one of the most defensively solid teams in 2016 so naturally defenders feature here, the top 3 were streets ahead of the pack.

I think Guthrie was our next best player, down in defence or in the midfield he was able to contribute in both areas. Duncan was incredibly consistent in output on a weekly basis, just didn't have many "Wow" games.

Yep. Same

 

[catstragic]

I

I take your point, but can't agree. We had Ablett and Bartel both win Brownlows at Geelong - both in premiership years - and at the exact same time Corey, Chapman, Ling, and Kelly were all in career-best form. It proven pretty clearly that having two top class midfielders doesn't mean the rest are somehow held back.

I agree that Guthrie and Duncan have shown great form as midfielders at senior level. Scott Selwood did years ago, but he's still unproven at Geelong and was pretty underwhelming last year. Really don't see how Menegola gets mentioned when he's only played 8 games, and he was completely out of his depth in the Prelim. You yourself said about Caddy 'never big stretches of form' - that has to apply to Menegola.

Gola played 8 games. Six of them were great. Caddy played 6 seasons, with about the same number of great games a gola.....

 

[Ricketz]

No problems here.

You should do the Champion data research yourself, you might learn something. I'll even get you started.
Guthrie round 12-19 average - 65.15 Rest of season - 91.5
The others read very similar, dropping between 15 and 40 (Motlop) points in the rounds I outlined.

The reason I used the Bigfooty votes is because we have a valuable resource here. The people who vote actually watch the game, and assess their performances in the immediate 0 - 48 hours after the game, while the actual performances of the players is still fresh. Often you end up with 11-15 players getting votes, due to the varied opinions.

The longer you wait, the performance can be forgotten, and you just start relying solely on stats (which you've done). Simply comparing disposals in a game to average disposals of the season and concluding that if they got more disposals, their performance was "above average" is the most simple and limited analysis anyone can do.

I don't expect to change your mind here, but I enjoy this quote about statistics.
"Statistics should be used like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support, not illumination"

And finally, please try to remember, more kicks and handpasses does not equal better performance.

I'm not the one who brought up champion data. The onus is on you to support your claims. Are those figures rankings? Do you know how they are derived? Do they take into account the directives of the coaching staff?

I'm having a beer, so I will do a bit more research on the club votes for these games tomorrow and see if your assumptions are correct.

I have also heard that quote before. By people who can't support their feels with data. I set the parameters to compare because you avoided the opportunity and chose to be vague.

By the way, I don't just watch Geelong games. I watch every game.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

I'm not the one who brought up champion data. The onus is on you to support your claims. Are those figures rankings? Do you know how they are derived? Do they take into account the directives of the coaching staff?

I'm having a beer, so I will do a bit more research on the club votes for these games tomorrow and see if your assumptions are correct.

I have also heard that quote before. By people who can't support their feels with data. I set the parameters to compare because you avoided the opportunity and chose to be vague.

By the way, I don't just watch Geelong games. I watch every game.

It's odd, because the only person who's failed to support their claims is you.
There is nothing vague about what I wrote.

Here's something extra for you also.
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115835/Cameron-GUTHRIE
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/117663/Mark-BLICAVS
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115132/Mitch-DUNCAN
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/113171/Steven-MOTLOP
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115514/Josh-CADDY

 

[Ricketz]

It's odd, because the only person who's failed to support their claims is you.
There is nothing vague about what I wrote.

Here's something extra for you also.
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115835/Cameron-GUTHRIE
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/117663/Mark-BLICAVS
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115132/Mitch-DUNCAN
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/113171/Steven-MOTLOP
http://www.aflplayerratings.com.au/Ratings/Player/115514/Josh-CADDY

Ok. You don't get it, or don't want to get it. These are outsider rankings from people not privy to the direction given by the club personnel. They are based on raw data. E.g. If Guthrie was asked to sacrifice his stats by the coaches to perform a role, he will be ranked badly by these outsiders. If he did what he was asked, he probably got votes for the club bnf.

You trust anyone but the people who are actually privy to that information - why, I don't know.

You said they were inconsistent, I showed they were not. You appealed to majority consensus and outsider rankings - yet when I asked you how those opinions were formed you threw the exact same spiel back. You clearly don't know why they were ranked so low, nor whether the coaches would actually agree. From this point on I see no value in trying to find out - as I said at the start of this mess, your criticism is too feely for my liking.

 

[Ricky Vaughn]

Ok. You don't get it, or don't want to get it. These are outsider rankings from people not privy to the direction given by the club personnel. They are based on raw data. E.g. If Guthrie was asked to sacrifice his stats by the coaches to perform a role, he will be ranked badly by these outsiders. If he did what he was asked, he probably got votes for the club bnf.

You trust anyone but the people who are actually privy to that information - why, I don't know.

You said they were inconsistent, I showed they were not. You appealed to majority consensus and outsider rankings - yet when I asked you how those opinions were formed you threw the exact same spiel back. You clearly don't know why they were ranked so low, nor whether the coaches would actually agree. From this point on I see no value in trying to find out - as I said at the start of this mess, your criticism is too feely for my liking.

You've shown nothing from inside the people who have the info, you've shown nothing of any substance, you've literally just shown kicks and handballs and you think that proves your point. I'm not expecting you to actually come now with any relevant, so we can put this whole mess behind us.

It's been fun. Until next time.

 

[Biscut]

No problems here.

You should do the Champion data research yourself, you might learn something. I'll even get you started.
Guthrie round 12-19 average - 65.15 Rest of season - 91.5
The others read very similar, dropping between 15 and 40 (Motlop) points in the rounds I outlined.

The reason I used the Bigfooty votes is because we have a valuable resource here. The people who vote actually watch the game, and assess their performances in the immediate 0 - 48 hours after the game, while the actual performances of the players is still fresh. Often you end up with 11-15 players getting votes, due to the varied opinions.

The longer you wait, the performance can be forgotten, and you just start relying solely on stats (which you've done). Simply comparing disposals in a game to average disposals of the season and concluding that if they got more disposals, their performance was "above average" is the most simple and limited analysis anyone can do.

I don't expect to change your mind here, but I enjoy this quote about statistics.
"Statistics should be used like a drunk uses a lamp post, for support, not illumination"

And finally, please try to remember, more kicks and handpasses does not equal better performance.

I've been reading this little argument and I totally know what your saying. Stats n figures do not give an informed opinion of a players output during a particular game, or group of games.

 

[CatAttack84]

I was a massive fan of Caddy's upon arrival, and hoped he'd work out as a future champ. Ignoring injuries, for all his efforts he just didn't work out, and after reading his own words earlier today, it's for the best, as clearly he's a little deluded. If he was that good and consistent he would've had a 100% midfield spot.
He didn't because he wasn't!

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...e/news-story/a18dd0a4cc6fea4419c80b3a003b02c4

 

[Wojcinski]

I was a massive fan of Caddy's upon arrival, and hoped he'd work out as a future champ. Ignoring injuries, for all his efforts he just didn't work out, and after reading his own words earlier today, it's for the best, as clearly he's a little deluded. If he was that good and consistent he would've had a 100% midfield spot.
He didn't because he wasn't!

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...e/news-story/a18dd0a4cc6fea4419c80b3a003b02c4

Can you copy the article? I'm paywall'd

 

[hbk_aus]

Former Cat Josh Caddy lured to Richmond by promise of more midfield time

Jay Clark, Herald Sun
January 31, 2017 8:00pm
Subscriber only

RICHMOND recruit Josh Caddy says the Tigers can form one of the AFL’s most formidable midfield combinations next season as they aggressively push for a return to finals.

Entering his third club in his seventh season, Caddy said he was initially reluctant to leave the Cats, but made the shock switch in part to reclaim a permanent midfield berth, alongside childhood friend and former Gold Coast teammate Dion Prestia.

And the clearance-winner has already made a strong connection with coach Damien Hardwick, saying: “He is very personal and close with the players, probably more so than other coaches than I’ve had”.
Caddy, 24, said he was not satisfied playing forward 50 per cent of his game time last year at Geelong and was looking forward to a more permanent onball role.

“You deal with it, get over it and just play, and that’s what I did in the second half of the season,” Caddy said.
“But I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t a little bit frustrated at times with playing a lot of time forward last year.
“I missed a couple of weeks with injury and Sam Menegola came into the side and was playing really well and had to stay there, which was fair enough.

“And Scotty Selwood started playing a tagging role, which probably wasn’t me either, but I did get frustrated, no doubt.

“I think playing in the midfield allows me to play my best footy and I believe I can give a team value in the midfield.”

About changing colours again, the No. 7 draft pick said: “It’s not ideal moving clubs regularly”.

“I’m at my third club and I’m only 24, but I just had a good think about it and I thought it made a lot of sense.”

The Tigers will wear a new PUMA playing jumper in 2017, featuring a more vibrant yellow stripe. The tough-nut said Richmond had the talent and the drive to win finals in 2017 after tumbling down the ladder and turning to youth in the second half of last year.

While Prestia has been on a modified program as he recovers from knee surgery mid-last year, Caddy said the early signs in match simulation training were encouraging.
“I believe we have got a really good group of midfielders and with a bit of luck with injury we can be one of the better midfields in the comp,” he said.

“Everyone was disappointed with last year, but they (Tigers) played finals the three seasons before that.
“Now we just want to play finals and turn things around from last year for our supporters who haven’t had much success for a long time.”

Thriving in his new environment, Caddy said he had not missed a single training session over summer and praised the style of new coach Hardwick, who survived a searching review of the football department late last season.

“He’s really approachable and he’s got good relationship with players,” he said.

“You feel really comfortable talking to him and respect very word he says too, because he has got that respect for you.

“He’s been really good for me and already I can’t wait to play for him.”

 

[Wojcinski]

Thanks hbk_aus

CatAttack84 I agree regarding the delusions, Tigers winnings finals? Ok Josh

Interesting to see he is admitting to cracking the shits because Menegola and SSelwood surpassed him in the midfield. My lasting memory of Caddy as a Cat was looking at the half time stat sheet in the PF vs Sydney and he had 1 disposal.

A guy who wants a permanent spot in a midfield, playing a preliminary final at the MCG with 1 disposal in a half. Ha.

 

[Sttew]

The article does not paint Caddy in a good light; third club in seven seasons, and he comes across as a spoilt, petulant brat.

So he wasn't happy playing 50% in the forward line. He could have done something about that, that didn't involve leaving the club.

He wasn't happy that Scott Selwood assumed a tagging role but then goes on to say, "(That) probably wasn’t me either, but I did get frustrated".

Clearly, he doesn't like Chris Scott

 

[TEDDY24INC]

The article does not paint Caddy in a good light; third club in seven seasons, and he comes across as a spoilt, petulant brat.

So he wasn't happy playing 50% in the forward line. He could have done something about that, that didn't involve leaving the club.

He wasn't happy that Scott Selwood assumed a tagging role but then goes on to say, "(That) probably wasn’t me either, but I did get frustrated".

Clearly, he doesn't like Chris Scott

He comes across as a big head who doesn't want to work for anything... Pretty simple, if his form warranted it he would have been ahead of scooter and menengola in the midfield pecking order. A clip there also for our coaches with the "one-on-one" time given by Hardwick, even if you think it it's not good to pot a club who paid you well and gave you games even though you never lived up to the hype or pay packet. Seems like a bit of a flog really.

 

[Sttew]

He comes across as a big head who doesn't want to work for anything... Pretty simple, if his form warranted it he would have been ahead of scooter and menengola in the midfield pecking order. A clip there also for our coaches with the "one-on-one" time given by Hardwick, even if you think it it's not good to pot a club who paid you well and gave you games even though you never lived up to the hype or pay packet. Seems like a bit of a flog really.

Yes....how long will it be before he gets injured again, loses form, and he gets left behind by members of Richmond's "formidable midfield"

 

[Bobby_]

and yet . . . track back a few months prior to the trade and there was not one poor word mentioned of Caddy on this board

Shit! Even his form slump was mainly attributed to injuries and not because he will always remain a B grader they say.

 

[Sttew]

and yet . . . track back a few months prior to the trade and there was not one poor word mentioned of Caddy on this board

Shit! Even his form slump was mainly attributed to injuries and not because he will always remain a B grader they say.

Yepp. I was a fan of Caddy back then. Doesn't mean I like what he is now saying, or the way he left Geelong. There was obviously something about Caddy that the Club saw, but we didn't necessarily know about, and that was his poor attitude. Why did he spend 50% of his playing time up forward? Because he can kick goals (which he does well)? Because he wasn't as effective in the middle as others?

Imagine if Jimmy Bartel had spat the dummy and walked out when the Club transformed him from a midfielder to a HBF. He took it in his stride.

 

[Frappe]

A little harsh on Josh there by a few I think. He was pretty honest and it stands to reason he's not going to can his new coach.

 

[dazbroncos]

and yet . . . track back a few months prior to the trade and there was not one poor word mentioned of Caddy on this board

Shit! Even his form slump was mainly attributed to injuries and not because he will always remain a B grader they say.

Bit of re writing history there.

Totally agree that potting him now he's gone is rubbish - but I wouldn't say he got a free pass here either. I know I gave him time to get over his injuries etc, and there were games/times he performed really well, better than that even.

There were also plenty of GD threads where he was missing and nowhere near the consistent force he was alleged to be.

Not saying he wont get there, but to suggest there was not a poor word spoken is just wrong.

GO Catters

 

[Bobby_]

Yepp. I was a fan of Caddy back then. Doesn't mean I like what he is now saying, or the way he left Geelong. There was obviously something about Caddy that the Club saw, but we didn't necessarily know about, and that was his poor attitude. Why did he spend 50% of his playing time up forward? Because he can kick goals (which he does well)? Because he wasn't as effective in the middle as others?

Imagine if Jimmy Bartel had spat the dummy and walked out when the Club transformed him from a midfielder to a HBF. He took it in his stride.

Caddy thinks he's top shit just as the rest of the Geelong playing list do. Why in the world would you think otherwise?
To single Caddy out though is a little strange.

I agree, he's taken a long time to finally play to a level we had hoped but Geelong will be worse off in the long run having let this guy go, not the other way around.
Caddy was one of a few who would attack a contest with genuine hardness. That game against Richmond where Geelong pulled off the miracle win was largely due to Caddy's heroics in the final term.

Do you not remember the way Kelly, Enright and others would conduct themselves after every 60 point drubbing?
The amount of times they would poke faces at the camera while singing the team song. The sheer arrogance of how good they knew they were?
It's always been that way and it's no different with Caddy, Motlop, Duncan or any other young player trying to make a name for them-self.

 

[Bobby_]

and nowhere near the consistent force he was alleged to be.

Who ever stated he was a consistent force?
Many believed he could eventually become a consistent force but at no time in his career has he been such a player.

 

[ChookNorris]

and yet . . . track back a few months prior to the trade and there was not one poor word mentioned of Caddy on this board

Shit! Even his form slump was mainly attributed to injuries and not because he will always remain a B grader they say.

I was always proudly critical of him. Nothing more than a half forward flanker, funnily enough, the position he ended up in.

 

[hbk_aus]

Caddy thinks he's top shit just as the rest of the Geelong playing list do. Why in the world would you think otherwise?
To single Caddy out though is a little strange.

I agree, he's taken a long time to finally play to a level we had hoped but Geelong will be worse off in the long run having let this guy go, not the other way around.
Caddy was one of a few who would attack a contest with genuine hardness. That game against Richmond where Geelong pulled off the miracle win was largely due to Caddy's heroics in the final term.

Do you not remember the way Kelly, Enright and others would conduct themselves after every 60 point drubbing?
The amount of times they would poke faces at the camera while singing the team song. The sheer arrogance of how good they knew they were?
It's always been that way and it's no different with Caddy, Motlop, Duncan or any other young player trying to make a name for them-self.

Heroics might be going a bit far - he kicked his one and only goal in the first few seconds of the quarter. He also had 5 clangers and 3 free kicks against for the game. But he was decent that day, as were others in that final quarter. As for the arrogance, I didnt see anything wrong with the article I posted above. He is being honest saying he was frustrated a bit not getting a regular run on the ball. That's his right to feel that way, we may think he got overtaken by more consistent contriobutors (which I do). And he bigs up his current coach, which is only natural.

Also not sure how anybody would know all of our players intimately enough to know whether they think they are "top shit" or not.