Judd vs. Kouta

[bluepride]

Gosh, a hotel - by the beach! If only Victoria would get with the times.

Its not by the beach though .

 

[Claypigeon]

I'm not sure you can compare a players career with another players best. .. Kouta at his best is the best player I've ever watched but I think we'd probably trade his best for Judd's career, once Judd is finished especially. ..

I also don't think I could say Judd is the best ever, forget comparing eras, its still debatable that he is the best current with his and Ablett Jr's careers unfinished. ..

Its all subjective though isn't it. .. Many would say Carey is the best ever (I'd agree with them if they meant best w***er ever). .. Others would say Lockett. .. Coventry. .. SoS (my all time favourite player). .. Brereton. .. Ablett Snr. .. Nicholls. .. Ebert. .. Polly. .. Quinlin. .. Robran. .. I could go on. ..

 

[alex the great]

Kouta was the prototype modern AFL player.

He could rip a game apart on his own from any position on the ground... including the ruck.

If Kouta hadnt been injured in 2000, we would probably had done better in the finals that year. He should have won the Brownlow in 2000

Judd is possibly the best ever midfielder to play the game, but he hasnt had the impact that Kouta had.

either you were drunk when you wrote this or .................

 

[40yearBLUE]

either you were drunk when you wrote this or .................

....................... or perhaps you misunderstand the meaning of the word impact as used in the context of this topic and Drams post.

This is not meant to have a go at you but to explain the point he and others here are making. I agree with Dramoman. Judd does not stand out from his peers other than by his deeds. There is no physical attribute you could point to and say, that, that is what we need to look for in recruiting the next Judd. For his role he is perhaps a little above average height at 189cm and 87kgs and compares to say Grigg at 190cm and 85kgs. (the comparison ends there). So it would seem it isnt height because one of Judds peers is GAJ at 182cm and 85kgs. It could be argued it is weight but we all know where this will lead, there are hundreds of average AFL players at this playing weight. It wont be speed, there are many faster, it wont be endurance, there are many with big tanks, it wont be leap or reach, Judd can barely lift his arms over his head or get off the ground. So there is nothing about Judd other than between the ears you could draft for.

But Kouta, was a game changing player. Now clubs actively recruit athletes with Kouta like physique in the hope they can create another Kouta. A player that can play in just about any position on the ground and win, tall enough to play key position, agile enough and with enough speed and endurance to play on ball and with enough poise and skill to play either inside or outside, and finish to kick goals or pinpoint long or short passes. With a leap capable of out marking his opponents or with the strength to win a one on one or the speed to lead and mark, or spoiling if in the backline, Kouta was all of that. Judd isnt, Judd is only some of those things.

Thats the "impact" he had on the game. He changed it. Judd is great make no mistake. But he wont change the game in the way Kouta did.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I'm not sure Kouta changed the game.
There is a lot of love here for Kouta and rightly so, but some of it is extended beyond the reality.
We all seem to want to immortalize Kouta as the prototypical "modern" player yet ten years on how many have Koutas have we got out there.
We were given a glimpse of what the future may bring, but that future is still some time away even for all the Brennans, Nic-Nats and Hamspons we have.
Greg Williams with his snail-pace and ugly style was a lot more influential in his games with us than Kouta was for all his athletacism.

As far as a game-changer is concerned Wayne Carey is the one player I can honestly say controlled his position in many more games than not.
I feel to be in a position to comment on this as I went through a ten year tenure of watching just about every Carlton and North Melbourne match in Melbourne, and I walked away in awe of Carey and Williams many times more than I had the luxury of bringing up the Kouta-mans name.

Well Harks, nice of you to reign us in a bit, but I have to disagree with you. I dont recall recruiters start looking for slow, slightly overweight midfielders in the diesel mold because of him. Would we like another Diesel, you couldnt pay them enough to join us, but can you recruit for it? In fact we actively turned it away and would probably do so again today because he was a freak that defied the logic of recruiting. But you cannot actively recruit for it. What are the KPI's you would look for? Fat and slow. I am fat and slow.....

That they have not found another Kouta is more of a testament to the man. But you said it yourself, they are looking for him. That is the change. And an enduring one, because we are all still looking for him. I think the closest we have seen to him is Goodes, although Goodes came along while Kouta was still playing. But I think you underestimate that change in focus. That we even discuss athlete/footballers as apposed to footballers that happen to be athletic is the legacy of his impact.

 

[bluepride]

There is no physical attribute you could point to and say, that, that is what we need to look for in recruiting the next Judd.It wont be speed, there are many faster, it wont be endurance, there are many with big tanks, it wont be leap or reach, Judd can barely lift his arms over his head or get off the ground. So there is nothing about Judd other than between the ears you could draft for.

This is what makes Judd great in a sense, as doesnt have any physical attribute that you cant point out and say "that is what we need".

Yet recruiters are always saying "We are looking for our next Judd", "Scully could be the next Judd".

Judd still has a few more years in his prime, and he will show why he is the best player. Dont get me wrong though I love Kouta (Im Greek myself) and he was my favorite player growing up.

Id even have Sticks ahead of Kouta in his prime.

 

[40yearBLUE]

This is what makes Judd great in a sense, as doesnt have any physical attribute that you cant point out and say "that is what we need".

Yet recruiters are always saying "We are looking for our next Judd", "Scully could be the next Judd".

Judd still has a few more years in his prime, and he will show why he is the best player. Dont get me wrong though I love Kouta (Im Greek myself) and he was my favorite player growing up.

Id even have Sticks ahead of Kouta in his prime.

Yep, pay that. Same with Diesel I would say. That they made the best of an average body or in diesels case below average makes their feats all the more remarkable.

And you are correct that players are still compared to Judd, the next Judd. But they are not specifically recruited to be the next Judd by any measurable criteria. It could be anyone, not necessarily a first rounder. But they do specifically look for attributes that Kouta introduced to the game. He wasnt recruited for his athleticism as far as I know but it soon became obvious that that was a key asset that ought to be sought out in future.

Oh and dont think this didnt go un-noticed. "(Im Greek myself) and he was my favorite player growing up". It doesnt gel with other things you have told us in other threads. But hey lets let that one drop, just letting you know it was noticed and perhaps a lesson for you.

 

[bluepride]

But they do specifically look for attributes that Kouta introduced to the game. He wasnt recruited for his athleticism as far as I know but it soon became obvious that that was a key asset that ought to be sought out in future.

Kouta was recruited purely for his athleticism .

 

[40yearBLUE]

Kouta was recruited purely for his athleticism .

Yes I recall that Kouta was a champion junior athlete and chose footy at the crossroads, but could have gone on to be olympic class. Was it as a hurdler? But I am not sure that this was the key attribute that pricked the clubs attention way back in 1990, not sure we were that sophisticated back then, but happy to be corrected.

 

[bluepride]

Yes I recall that Kouta was a champion junior athlete and chose footy at the crossroads, but could have gone on to be olympic class. Was it as a hurdler? But I am not sure that this was the key attribute that pricked the clubs attention way back in 1990, not sure we were that sophisticated back then, but happy to be corrected.

Yer, track and field which I think he was particular good at hurdles and also discus.

Read his biography a while ago, and it seemed as if it was a big factor as he had the decision to continue to do athletics because I doubt his football skills wouldve been sublime to the point of us picking him up just due to his footballing skills.

 

[Dramoth]

Yer, track and field which I think he was particular good at hurdles and also discus.

Read his biography a while ago, and it seemed as if it was a big factor as he had the decision to continue to do athletics because I doubt his football skills wouldve been sublime to the point of us picking him up just due to his footballing skills.

U16 High jump champion
Competed in 110m hurdles and the discus.

Recruited from Lalor where I have to assume he did play football. The reserves best and fairest winner in 1991 would suggest that he did have the sublime footballing skills you are suggesting that he didnt have.

After 2000, a lot of the AFL clubs started recruiting athletic type players in the hope of uncovering the next footballing freak while would be exactly like Kouta. Unfortunately for them, Kouta is a one in a million footballer.

 

[bluepride]

Recruited from Lalor where I have to assume he did play football. The reserves best and fairest winner in 1991 would suggest that he did have the sublime footballing skills you are suggesting that he didnt have.

Probably got it off Wikipedia if im not mistaken?

Reserves doesnt mean you have sound football skills, I remember distinctly coaches talking about his one hand pick ups during his time at reserves and saying that they could turn him into alot better footballer.

He never lowered his eyes would run, and bomb it forward.

Switching between athletics and football during his junior years wouldve hindered his skills early on.

 

[Quazza]

I went straight from the G to the arts centre to queue for tickets and watched all of the Essendon members that had already staked out places in the queue trudge off. Magic. Just magic.

what I love, is thats everyone really does know "the" quarter. Didnt have to mention the year, the game, hell, even who we were playing

My god, it was phenominal.

Even my old man, a stern Hawks and North Adelaide man, calls it the best quarter he's ever seen, and he got to watch Barry Robran every week

 

[40yearBLUE]

Judd attempted a similar feat in the second half v Swans this year. His 3rd quarter was champion stuff and was the reason we were in the game late into the last quarter. His miss in the last would have been momentum changing and might have elevated the half to similar status as Koutas. Had we won, I have no doubt we could have gone into the prelim with a chance of winning. Anyway, stuff of dreams and wishes now. Our time will come and who knows one day, after a similar feat as another poster put it, Juddy will hold up the cup and that memory will drown out all others from that day forth. Until then, it will still be "that" quarter that does it for me.

 

[OwDannyBoi]

U16 High jump champion
Competed in 110m hurdles and the discus.

Recruited from Lalor where I have to assume he did play football. The reserves best and fairest winner in 1991 would suggest that he did have the sublime footballing skills you are suggesting that he didnt have.

After 2000, a lot of the AFL clubs started recruiting athletic type players in the hope of uncovering the next footballing freak while would be exactly like Kouta. Unfortunately for them, Kouta is a one in a million footballer.

Sorry to intrude, I remember Kouta being refered to as the prototype for the modern footballer when he first hit the scene, unfortunately for footy lovers he was never put into mass-production.

Without a doubt he put in the most dominant individual performances I have ever seen, often against my mob, and played the game in the right spirit. One of my fave non-pies.

 

[TNBT]

That's a pretty odd thing to do.

Yeah, it's different, but I wanted to get an idea of what people considered to be "better" or "more important". Basically, I wanted to see what people placed a bigger premium on. It would be like rating Silvagni's defensive abilities with Sticks forward line leadership and dominance.

 

[TNBT]

Anywho, I don't really know if anyone gets the point that I was trying to find in this question, so feel free to let this thread die.

 

[The Toad]

Sorry to intrude, I remember Kouta being refered to as the prototype for the modern footballer when he first hit the scene, unfortunately for footy lovers he was never put into mass-production.

Without a doubt he put in the most dominant individual performances I have ever seen, often against my mob, and played the game in the right spirit. One of my fave non-pies.

Appreciate your input, Champ

 

[The Toad]

Anywho, I don't really know if anyone gets the point that I was trying to find in this question, so feel free to let this thread die.

I think it may be a tad to late for that, Ace.

 

[Bee]

Anthony Koutoufides was a champion, Chris Judd is a champion but to compare the two is ridiculous. They are two completely different players, both brilliant, but different.

As for Kouta his last quarter in the '99 prelim was sensational. One of the most memorable performances ever. That effort got us over the line against Essendon.

Kouta's 2000 season was sublime. Anyone who saw it will not forget it.

His career was cut short by injury. You need to ask yourself just how good would he have been if not for the injury?

His one handed pickups will live with me forever. Kouta was a champion!

 

[jackn]

Anywho, I don't really know if anyone gets the point that I was trying to find in this question, so feel free to let this thread die.

The question in this thread deserves to live on.

Kouta in 2000 was better than any footballer has been in my life (born 82). As has been said, he dominated all around the ground game after game. He'd save games with his pack marks in the backline, set up goals in the ruck or through the middle, and kick goals as a forward. I still clearly remember how easily he outbodied opposition ruckmen in our forward line, took the ball from a throw in and snapped a goal on numerous occasions.

When he went down that year we were done. Was it a 15 game winning streak? Whatever it was was courtesy of Kouta. Judd at his best is a great midfielder but Kouta at his best will always be better than any midfielder.

 

[Bee]

Totally agree jackn, but I think you may find it was 13 game winning streak.