Knightmare's Collingwood List Management 2012

[Breakthelines]

I think you may be thinking of someone else. Because Russell's best finish in a B&F was RU and it was 2 years ago now. He was also mentioned for the squad, but was never really a chance for AA.

That was the only season of his that would be considered above average and considering he has now been in the system for 8 season's I guess I just don't see what it is you and others see in him.....

He'd be a handy depth player, but certainly not best 22 IMO.

Yeah agree....would be depth ad if he played well could become best 22.

 

[Breakthelines]

Not sure we would have any cap room to pay Russell any more than the rookie base wage.

If he is happy to play for that money then that probably is enough reason in itself to avoid him anyway!!

How does that work? We have 3-5 draftees coming in plus 5 rookies....there has to be Money. You or I have no idea what our TPP is....it's all media speculation.

 

[Knightmare]

Young is at his most dangerous on a wing. It is not as much his delivery and playmaking (though good) as it is his ability to finish for goals when within range. So it's more forward of centre where his value is at it's highest because he can load up from 65m which few others can.


Also the op is up to date so I've got my new list of players I'd look at with each selection up.

Feel free to question me on those I left out - such as Simpson (intentionally) among others but these would be my shortlist of selections at each point taking into consideration our list needs and best available.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Cameron Wood has played a fairly similar amount of games in the same time frame. Jon Ceglar has played 0 games and is 8 months older than Josh Thomas does that mean he now needs to go in front of Wood?

Cutting a bloke that turned 21 just 3 weeks ago in front of another that's had 7 years in the system and achieved 2 fifths of fcuk all in that time simply because the kid has had injuries (while completely ignoring the fact that he's now over them) is just illogical IMO.

It's not illogical at all. Your 'logic' treats players like market commodities. Regardless of age, Ceglar has been on the list for less time than Thomas plus he is a ruckman which means he will take longer to develop. He also isn't a chronic sick note. Their situations are not comparable at all.

You also underrate Buckley's season.He played more than half our games and was much better than Clarke who is just as unlikely to be a long term 'keeper'. You need depth players who play a role. He provides that. A list is larger than 22 and not everyone from 23 on has to be young and a 'potential' gun.

 

[Snoop Dog]

thats

I think you may be thinking of someone else. Because Russell's best finish in a B&F was RU and it was 2 years ago now. He was also mentioned for the squad, but was never really a chance for AA.

That was the only season of his that would be considered above average and considering he has now been in the system for 8 season's I guess I just don't see what it is you and others see in him.....

He'd be a handy depth player, but certainly not best 22 IMO.

thats how I see it and it really depends on who they are comparing him to for a spot on the list. If its Buckley then I am happy to make the switch. If it was Tom Young I would be less happy as think Tom has done reasonably well in his limited chances. I suspect Buckley worries about his kicking though which is reasonable as Young is certainly not in the 70% + category. Russell best footy has been better than Buckleys and Buckley has had ample chances. No biggie for me but happy for it to happen.

 

[tazzawazza]

Young is at his most dangerous on a wing. It is not as much his delivery and playmaking (though good) as it is his ability to finish for goals when within range. So it's more forward of centre where his value is at it's highest because he can load up from 65m which few others can.


Also the op is up to date so I've got my new list of players I'd look at with each selection up.

Feel free to question me on those I left out - such as Simpson (intentionally) among others but these would be my shortlist of selections at each point taking into consideration our list needs and best available.

At the start of the trade period you said that the pies require a small and medium defender, tall forward and a back up ruckman for an established list. It looks like the pies haven't done any of that as Dawes has left and Young being a wingman. Do you reckon we are relying more in the draft for these voids?

 

[TradeDraft]

Not sure we would have any cap room to pay Russell any more than the rookie base wage.

If he is happy to play for that money then that probably is enough reason in itself to avoid him anyway!!

Well coming over as a De-Listed FA means he be on just about Minimum Pay and just be looking for Opportunity

 

[Knightmare]

At the start of the trade period you said that the pies require a small and medium defender, tall forward and a back up ruckman for an established list. It looks like the pies haven't done any of that as Dawes has left and Young being a wingman. Do you reckon we are relying more in the draft for these voids?

The key forward was more under the assumption that Cloke would leave. In a perfect world we would have a Kurt Tippett type to play alongside Cloke as a second contested marking target but that was never realistic and won't be realistic I can't imagine till Darcy Moore comes along in a couple of years.

An established ruckman turned out not to be an option - Giles and McIntosh were the two who could fit with our list but Giles signed a 3 year deal with GWS and McIntosh saw the greatest opportunity at Geelong who had a better pick to do it with (probably not worth a 1st rounder at his age and with injury issues if going off recent seasons).

Our backline needs can be met through the drafts. In the rookie draft in particular I see more backline depth coming with strong depth of this type in this years draft but in the national draft and 1st round in particular we should be looking at best availables above all.

It is often not possible to meet all needs - there is no such thing as a perfect list, it's more these are the areas where if we added this type of player to our list that we might be able to find that next level. We have addressed our outside mid needs with Young who adds much needed footskills (which we sorely lacked this season with mostly poor footskills from a large number of our midfielders) and Lynch who as a no.2 ruckman is probably a better fit with our squad anyway than Dawes is in the immediate so I'm not too displeased.

I'd still look at a move of pick 21 for Toy + Weller - as a damaging backman and potential strong bodied tagger which are two relative deficiencies but all indications are Collingwood are happy as is and will from here just move onto the draft.

Ruck needs just need to go on hold and it's a wait for next year proposition which might open up some opportunities for Ceglar and Witts which isn't so bad.

 

[tazzawazza]

The key forward was more under the assumption that Cloke would leave. In a perfect world we would have a Kurt Tippett type to play alongside Cloke as a second contested marking target but that was never realistic and won't be realistic I can't imagine till Darcy Moore comes along in a couple of years.

An established ruckman turned out not to be an option - Giles and McIntosh were the two who could fit with our list but Giles signed a 3 year deal with GWS and McIntosh saw the greatest opportunity at Geelong who had a better pick to do it with (probably not worth a 1st rounder at his age and with injury issues if going off recent seasons).

Our backline needs can be met through the drafts. In the rookie draft in particular I see more backline depth coming with strong depth of this type in this years draft but in the national draft and 1st round in particular we should be looking at best availables above all.

It is often not possible to meet all needs - there is no such thing as a perfect list, it's more these are the areas where if we added this type of player to our list that we might be able to find that next level. We have addressed our outside mid needs with Young who adds much needed footskills (which we sorely lacked this season with mostly poor footskills from a large number of our midfielders) and Lynch who as a no.2 ruckman is probably a better fit with our squad anyway than Dawes is in the immediate so I'm not too displeased.

I'd still look at a move of pick 21 for Toy + Weller - as a damaging backman and potential strong bodied tagger which are two relative deficiencies but all indications are Collingwood are happy as is and will from here just move onto the draft.

Ruck needs just need to go on hold and it's a wait for next year proposition which might open up some opportunities for Ceglar and Witts which isn't so bad.

Thanks,

How about Hickey? How do you rate him? Also one more question, are there any tall power forwards that range pick 15-25 that we could get? I was interested in Jake Stringer but you stated that he would be more of a utility/mobile midfielder (He is the same height as Pendlebury)

 

[Scodog10]

It's not illogical at all. Your 'logic' treats players like market commodities. Regardless of age, Ceglar has been on the list for less time than Thomas plus he is a ruckman which means he will take longer to develop. He also isn't a chronic sick note. Their situations are not comparable at all.

You also underrate Buckley's season.He played more than half our games and was much better than Clarke who is just as unlikely to be a long term 'keeper'. You need depth players who play a role. He provides that. A list is larger than 22 and not everyone from 23 on has to be young and a 'potential' gun.

Of course there not comparable I was being a smart arse because of the ridiculous reasoning that you used to justify Buckley's position ahead of JT.

Also you're correct in that I underrate Buckley's season. I have it as effing woeful when in actuality it was most likely closer to very poor.

Buckley played the same amount of games as JT in the reserves (7). One player has never had a pre-season and was just 20 years of age throughout 2012 and the other has all the attributes to be a star yet the mindset of a zombie. Now which of those two do you think was named in the best for 6 of those 7 games? And which was named as an emergency for the final 2 weeks of the Home and Away season and first final?

Buckley will probably survive the chop and despite my pasting of him here I'm ok with that for now because I think there's a couple of more eligible candidates for delisting than him depending on how many we cut and who we decide to bring in. However the issue I have is the way you are completely wiping JT and the absolute tripe you're using to support your opinion despite his encouraging finish to the season and the fact that he's rated very highly internally.

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Buckley will probably survive the chop and despite my pasting of him here I'm ok with that for now because I think there's a couple of more eligible candidates for delisting than him depending on how many we cut. However the issue I have is the way you are completely wiping JT and the absolute tripe you're using to support your opinion despite his encouraging finish to the season and the fact that he's rated very highly internally.

Have you actually read my posts? You just agreed with everything I've said from the start. Where have I 'wiped' J Thomas? Where have I said he is untalented? I haven't. I simply think it's time to move on from him. Rusling and Dick were delisted despite showing more promise and having an impact on the first team. I have not 'wiped' Thomas at all, I like the kid. You are just being a little precious and sensitive really.

 

[Knightmare]

Thanks,

How about Hickey? How do you rate him? Also one more question, are there any tall power forwards that range pick 15-25 that we could get? I was interested in Jake Stringer but you stated that he would be more of a utility/mobile midfielder (He is the same height as Pendlebury)

Hickey is an ok developing ruckman. I consider him as similar to Ceglar is and is that same developing type at that same age.

I think his value (perceived) is somewhat over the top and I don't see him worth anything more than a late 2nd round selection - but as another developing ruckman with plenty on our list I wouldn't be trading for him. It just takes ruck minutes away from Ceglar and Witts who need more time through there to move their development along.

Stringer and Membrey are the two who appeal - though both I like more as strong bodied midfielders despite having played key forward mostly this year.

I'm very happy with our key forward situation. We have Cloke, Lynch for a couple of years, Paine who already I consider to be an established and ready to play key forward then we have Gault and Ceglar who can both play forward. Add Moore who is coming and I'd pass on drafting another key forward this year.

Had Cloke left I would have pushed for Kristian Jaksch who has really impressed this season. Quality CHF who can play CHB but what stands out is his footskills for a key position player. Real playmaker and can get the ball to players where they want it. Has some contested marking ability - not Cloke dominant but is reasonable in this aspect of his game and is a very willing tackler who gives 2nd + 3rd efforts.

Mason Shaw would have been the other option as a deep forward and I suggest he is available at our selection on draft day. Key forward with some marking ability, good finisher near goal and has been productive these past two seasons and has some height.

The issues with these key forwards though is that I don't have them ahead of what we already have. Both Jaksch and Shaw I have behind Cloke/Lynch/Paine and possibly even Gault who I think is a better key forward than many realise when given the opportunity forward of centre. Add Darcy Moore who looks a top 5 selection for 2014 and I just don't see a role for either of these which is why mids/defenders are probably better pickups through the draft.

Stringer has mostly played as a key forward this year in the TAC but at 191cm I don't see him as a CHF. He has proven in the past he can play other positions to a high level (have seen him off a back flank in the u16s and he can do some big damage) then through the midfield in his 3 VFL games averaged 20 disposals which is big for an u18 so I think he could be best utilisied long term as a Luke Hodge type where you can put him anywhere and he will influence the game - midfield/back/forward. Big strength and for me a real selling point.

 

[Knightmare]

Have you actually read my posts? You just agreed with everything I've said from the start. Where have I 'wiped' J Thomas? Where have I said he is untalented? I haven't. I simply think it's time to move on from him. Rusling and Dick were delisted despite showing more promise and having an impact on the first team. I have not 'wiped' Thomas at all, I like the kid. You are just being a little precious and sensitive really.

The thing with Rusling and Dick is they they were on our list for a number of years - Dick came to us in the 2006 draft and left us at the end of 2011, Rusling had even longer with us. Thomas has been with us for the two years, he could yet get over his injury issues and unlike Buckley still has best 22 potential - not necessarily next year but in 2-3 years time when Swan/Ball retire if Thomas gets his body right he could be a very important midfielder for us.

Whereas Buckley while a solid depth player is always going to be depth which is where I see things.

Won't be an easy decision for the club to decide who to give the flick to and as we are finding out cases with these two can be made both ways - and understandably so with Thomas having been excellent at VFL level and looking ready to take the next step but often out with injury, then Buckley able to play a role at AFL level without being best 22 which at his age is the concern.

Will be interesting to see what comes of this.

 

[loki04]

I think you may be thinking of someone else. Because Russell's best finish in a B&F was RU and it was 2 years ago now. He was also mentioned for the squad, but was never really a chance for AA.

That was the only season of his that would be considered above average and considering he has now been in the system for 8 season's I guess I just don't see what it is you and others see in him.....

He'd be a handy depth player, but certainly not best 22 IMO.

Sorry wrong year and he came 2nd to Judd i bet...

Also most games he has played against us he has performed well maybe why I have a good opinion of him, regardless he is far from a spud and he walked out on Carlton he asked to be delisted (maybe a better club (us) has been in his ear).

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

That's a good post and not unreasonable. You probably just rate Thomas's potential higher than I do. I think we'll draft an inside mid high this draft and with Beams, Blair and Sinclair who I see as an inside mid long term I think he'll struggle to get in.

 

[Scodog10]

Have you actually read my posts? You just agreed with everything I've said from the start. Where have I 'wiped' J Thomas? Where have I said he is untalented? I haven't. I simply think it's time to move on from him. Rusling and Dick were delisted despite showing more promise and having an impact on the first team. I have not 'wiped' Thomas at all, I like the kid. You are just being a little precious and sensitive really.

Yes they're hard to miss due to the going against the grain nature of them I for one have no problem with that it just makes them stand out more than others. You said that Buckley is an infinitely better option than JT which I wouldn't agree with in a hundred years. If it came down to a choice between one or the other Buckley would be out on his arse before he had time to blink. Where I differ from many, and you, is that it won't get to that.

How can you not have wiped him if you think it's time to move on? On a base level that suggests you don't think he'll make it. You then provide injuries as the reason for that stance and mention Dick and Rusling as justification who received 5 and 6 years on senior lists before being moved on and weren't trying to break into a team that's gone Premier, Runner Up and 4th.

Perhaps it isn't I who is being precious and sensitive when in fact I'm agreeing with you on a number of things and only questioning certain aspects of your reasoning....

 

[Knightmare]

That's a good post and not unreasonable. You probably just rate Thomas's potential higher than I do. I think we'll draft an inside mid high this draft and with Beams, Blair and Sinclair who I see as an inside mid long term I think he'll struggle to get in.

Could be right. I certainly don't have him inside my best 22 for next year and even long team I don't have him in there. So he is one you have to look at the position of on the list - but then again I have more than most in this bracket in projecting ahead.

My view with Thomas is that he is a pure inside midfielder only - I don't like his play all that much forward of centre, limited marking ability and limited goalscoring ability. But he is an exceptional stoppage player - wins his own ball, reads the ruck taps, strong tackler then has some pace and good by both hand and foot with his inside distributing work particularly impressive by hand.

I'm of the view there is room for Thomas and then even another couple of strong bodied inside midfielders - say two of Stringer/Vlastuin/Membrey/Lonergan through the draft. Stringer/Vlastuin/Membrey appeal most because they have that multi positional flexibility meaning that unlike Thomas they don't have to exclusively play midfield which is always helpful.

The reason I'm pro Thomas is not only that I like his talent (what he is doing now is already very good and I believe he can play tomorrow) but also that I don't see Swan and Ball being around all that much longer and when they leave we will be left with a weaker midfield without that same inside grunt we currently enjoy that makes us such a strong team (with Pendlebury/Beams more finesse inside players rather than the hard inside ball winners which all teams need).

I have a different view of Blair and Sinclair. Beams I have starting next year on a forward flank but I see him very much as a long term midfielder. Blair probably doesn't quite do enough through the midfield and while he can win some of his own ball he just doesn't get enough outside ball and I would look to move him more into the forward half next year because through the midfield he just doesn't play to a high enough level.
Sinclair through the midfield is interesting. This was my initial vision with him as he joined the club - as an inside midfielder. Just not sure he has enough inside ball winning ability. Obviously has the pace and tackling enthusiasm but I have D.Thomas as a strong inside ball winner than I do Sinclair.
But as an inside midfielder I rate Thomas ahead of Sinclair by a fair stretch (not better as a forward) but his inside ball winning is just so good.
And then possibly even slightly better as a pure mid already than Blair (who is clearly the better forward) but again possibly slightly less productive through the midfield (though admittedly unproven and I only say this speculatively).

 

[Boris the Contradiction]

Yes they're hard to miss due to the going against the grain nature of them I for one have no problem with that it just makes them stand out more than others. You said that Buckley is an infinitely better option than JT which I wouldn't agree with in a hundred years. If it came down to a choice between one or the other Buckley would be out on his arse before he had time to blink. Where I differ from many, and you, is that it won't get to that.

How can you not have wiped him if you think it's time to move on? On a base level that suggests you don't think he'll make it. You then provide injuries as the reason for that stance and mention Dick and Rusling as justification who received 5 and 6 years on senior lists before being moved on and weren't trying to break into a team that's gone Premier, Runner Up and 4th.

Perhaps it isn't I who is being precious and sensitive when in fact I'm agreeing with you on a number of things and only questioning certain aspects of your reasoning....

I don't think he'll make it, doesn't mean I'm wiping him though. I also do think Buckley is infinitely more valuable to us, simply because he will play a role where I can't see Thomas playing one because of the quality in front of him in his position. I mentioned Rusling and Dick because although they were here longer, they actually had an impact and were moved on, because of injuries alone. If you think the club won't consider Thomas's injury record when deciding whether to keep him you have your head in the sand. It's not the only consideration but it is A consideration. Nevertheless, we're not going to agree and there's no point arguing about it.

 

[Hardas]

That's a good post and not unreasonable. You probably just rate Thomas's potential higher than I do. I think we'll draft an inside mid high this draft and with Beams, Blair and Sinclair who I see as an inside mid long term I think he'll struggle to get in.

Mate, don't take this the wrong way [because I've only seen Thomas play twice, and maybe I'm biased because he was pretty good both times] but have you seen him play much yourself?

I reckon he's got 'Best 22 inside mid' written all over him IF his body/feet will stand up to the pre-season load. And I get the impression from coaches' comments that I'm not the only one.

I don't want to bag any of our current players, but I think he can replace at least one of our current midfield rotation, although I guess with Bally coming back he wouldn't get the first chance anyway. As you did name a few names, I will say that IMHO, he will have numbers 11 and 28 covered in that role. Why? Because I see real contested possession/clearance talent, speed off the mark and good handball in the kid.

Not saying he's a Brownlow favourite, and I'm not saying I'm right and someone else is wrong. Just what I've seen.

 

[Hardas]

Oh and before I forget again, thanks a lot for all your fantastic work here, Knighter! It's not possible for us to thank you enough.

 

[Obese Arachnid]

Oh and before I forget again, thanks a lot for all your fantastic work here, Knighter! It's not possible for us to thank you enough.

Nice call, thanks Knighter.

 

[Scodog10]

I don't think he'll make it, doesn't mean I'm wiping him though. I also do think Buckley is infinitely more valuable to us, simply because he will play a role where I can't see Thomas playing one because of the quality in front of him in his position. I mentioned Rusling and Dick because although they were here longer, they actually had an impact and were moved on, because of injuries alone. If you think the club won't consider Thomas's injury record when deciding whether to keep him you have your head in the sand. It's not the only consideration but it is A consideration. Nevertheless, we're not going to agree and there's no point arguing about it.

True we aren't on where the two sit in the scheme of things

If I was a betting man I'd have money on us both being reasonably pleased once the list lodgements are made. So long as we don't sign Russell that is.

 

[Knightmare]

No problem fellas. Thanks for the kind words. It's more fun than work anyway.

 

[Hardas]

No problem fellas. Thanks for the kind words. It's more fun than work anyway.

And presuming you're not curing cancer over there, much more important!!

 

[Mudeo]

thats

thats how I see it and it really depends on who they are comparing him to for a spot on the list. If its Buckley then I am happy to make the switch. If it was Tom Young I would be less happy as think Tom has done reasonably well in his limited chances. I suspect Buckley worries about his kicking though which is reasonable as Young is certainly not in the 70% + category. Russell best footy has been better than Buckleys and Buckley has had ample chances. No biggie for me but happy for it to happen.

I think people forget that is the year that he was moved to defence full time, before he was primarily played as a half forward flanker, its not easy to be consistent, but his move to defence was the best thing for his career, would be a good pick up in my opinion.