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Discussion Kosi

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If Watters does want to gift Kosi the remaining three games, he may consider doing it sooner than later. You may remember as the season wore on last year Kosi slower down considerably each week. If you want his remaining games to be more than him as an Easter Island statue, it may have to be done well before the seasons end.
 
I don't believe anyone should be gifted anything. Don't see what the difference is between 198 and 200 in all honesty. What if Maister and Siposs are flying, one of them has to come out for three games for pretty much no reason? A send off game is more than enough to thank him for his services IMO.
 
Not trying to troll. But after watching you blokes closely last Friday, my belief is that Kosi is not in your best 22 any longer. Its all about Siposs playing the 2nd key forward role behind Roo for the Saints. The kid is a scary talent!
 

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hayes said:
I don't believe anyone should be gifted anything. Don't see what the difference is between 198 and 200 in all honesty. What if Maister and Siposs are flying, one of them has to come out for three games for pretty much no reason? A send off game is more than enough to thank him for his services IMO.
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Yeah I'm not one for pomp and ceremony. Kosi has earnt 198 games. If we gift him 2 games he's no more or less a player.
 
Defacto said:
he'll get his 200. 200th will be his retirement game. we havent sent our long serving players off in style since probably harvey

need to step up in this regard
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Agree Defacto. Sorry Sunshine, Hayes and SS - can't agree. It is no different in business - the little milestones permeate through the group and strengthen bonds and comradery etc... Kosi gets to 200, the players get a lift for that game, love is in the air etc... Young blokes have something to aspire to. All the other blokes such as Maister and Hickey have plenty of time to get games. Missing 2 games wont hurt anyone but there is a huge upside in getting Kosi to 200 games. we have had the fabric of our club ripped apart too much. Luke Ball (don't get me started), Goose (still makes my blood boil that the bloke couldn't get 1 game to put his name on a locker!!!!!!!), Gram (his own fault mind you) and to a degree Goddard. Lyon's departure was a blessing but it still resulted in upheaval at the club. all this stuff hurts clubs. Take a look at Geelong - Ablett leaves and it was turned into a positive in weeks. Thompson left and they simply moved on. The club is as strong as ever and some say even stronger without Thompson.

As for last year - Kosi played with a busted ankle all year so his last half of the year was mostly because of that. Not saying that he should play beyond this year but he took a bullet for the team and all we seem to do is bag him. injections to train and 2 per game is a fair effort. I don't see anyone bagging Chips who has been underperforming for 12 months on 1 leg.... I actually think that our game plan doesn't suit Kosi either. He would do better at another club which allows their forwards to stay home more often like Carlton. Even Cloke stays at home a lot despite his big tank.
 
Thanks tbaker, couldn't have said it better myself.

You forgot to mention the 2008 Grand Final - Max Hudghton/Ross Lyon/Zac Dawson disaster.

I still remember Ross Lyon quoting, theres no room in football for loyalty or sentiment.

Guess what Ross, your way didn't work and it near tore the Saints apart.
 
MordySaint said:
Thanks tbaker, couldn't have said it better myself.

You forgot to mention the 2008 Grand Final - Max Hudghton/Ross Lyon/Zac Dawson disaster.

I still remember Ross Lyon quoting, theres no room in football for loyalty or sentiment.

Guess what Ross, your way didn't work and it near tore the Saints apart.
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Max wasn't fit enough to play in Grand Final. Zac Dawson was also voted by players as Saints Player Of Finals. Playing him over Max didn't cost us a flag. Would have thrown entire structure out that had won us so many games during season. Why change something that wasn't broken!
 
tbarker said:
Agree Defacto. Sorry Sunshine, Hayes and SS - can't agree. It is no different in business - the little milestones permeate through the group and strengthen bonds and comradery etc... Kosi gets to 200, the players get a lift for that game, love is in the air etc... Young blokes have something to aspire to. All the other blokes such as Maister and Hickey have plenty of time to get games. Missing 2 games wont hurt anyone but there is a huge upside in getting Kosi to 200 games. we have had the fabric of our club ripped apart too much. Luke Ball (don't get me started), Goose (still makes my blood boil that the bloke couldn't get 1 game to put his name on a locker!!!!!!!), Gram (his own fault mind you) and to a degree Goddard. Lyon's departure was a blessing but it still resulted in upheaval at the club. all this stuff hurts clubs. Take a look at Geelong - Ablett leaves and it was turned into a positive in weeks. Thompson left and they simply moved on. The club is as strong as ever and some say even stronger without Thompson.

As for last year - Kosi played with a busted ankle all year so his last half of the year was mostly because of that. Not saying that he should play beyond this year but he took a bullet for the team and all we seem to do is bag him. injections to train and 2 per game is a fair effort. I don't see anyone bagging Chips who has been underperforming for 12 months on 1 leg.... I actually think that our game plan doesn't suit Kosi either. He would do better at another club which allows their forwards to stay home more often like Carlton. Even Cloke stays at home a lot despite his big tank.
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No need to apologize mate, can't make everyone happy. ;)

Whether they lift for his 200th or his final game makes no difference IMO. Lets not forget he had his chance to be almost guaranteed his 200th but instead he decided to elbow a young bloke in the head off the ball. How much more can we do for this bloke? I don't think it's the end of the world if we give it to him but it just reeks of individual over the team which is something even Watters has said has been a problem at St Kilda in the past. We need to get away from that.
 
stkildathunda said:
Max wasn't fit enough to play in Grand Final. Zac Dawson was also voted by players as Saints Player Of Finals. Playing him over Max didn't cost us a flag. Would have thrown entire structure out that had won us so many games during season. Why change something that wasn't broken!
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Not sure if I should use the "what ifs" ... as they get you nowhere.

Still haven't watched the 2009 replay...

Maybe it just wasn't handled the right way at the time as I seem to remember it being as major distraction.
 
I was in a hurry so didn't put in all my thoughts.

Considering the season he had in 2009, Dawson had earned the right to make the call on whether he was right to play, and if he was, then he should have been selected in the side.

That's not to say Max Hudghton shouldn't have been in the side for someone else. Dempster played as a defensive marking third forward in that game and although he kicked a goal, his role would have been better suited to someone like James Gwilt, or a smaller player like David Armitage, who were two of the emergencies (was the other Jack Steven?).
 

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stkildathunda said:
Max wasn't fit enough to play in Grand Final. Zac Dawson was also voted by players as Saints Player Of Finals. Playing him over Max didn't cost us a flag. Would have thrown entire structure out that had won us so many games during season. Why change something that wasn't broken!
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I dont recall him being injured. And its crap that a player the calibre of Hudghton cant come in and play after a couple of weeks off.

I think something that contributed to bad feeling between Max and Lyon was also the way Max had prepared for games.
When he knew he would be full back, Max would meticulously study his opponent the week prior to the game. Once Dawson was on the scene, he wouldn't have known if he would be playing VFL or AFL and if Dawson was selected as well, who his oppent was.
 
SaintsSeptember said:
I dont recall him being injured. And its crap that a player the calibre of Hudghton cant come in and play after a couple of weeks off.

I think something that contributed to bad feeling between Max and Lyon was also the way Max had prepared for games.
When he knew he would be full back, Max would meticulously study his opponent the week prior to the game. Once Dawson was on the scene, he wouldn't have known if he would be playing VFL or AFL and if Dawson was selected as well, who his oppent was.
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Good point SS however his form in 2010 was terrible. Perhaps it was what you say but he did play full back in a few games. I think it was against Essendon (could be wrong) at Etihad stadium where he made some horrible errors. We didn't see him after that. I loved Maxi after following him as a Junior in the DVFL but he wasn't playing well. I would be interested to know his take on his form now that time has elapsed? Anyway, Dawson had gastro in the lead up to the granny and IMO wasn't right to play and Max should have played because a fully fit Max (albeit past it) is better than a player that might have not made it to the last quarter. What really got my goat was the fact that Raph Clarke played a nothing role because he didn't have a decent match-up and Dempster came back half fit and they got too cute with him and put him up forward. They over thunk it :confused:. Any of the reserves were better options although from memory Armitage had a sore knee (or it could have been 2011 now I think about it). I still haven't watched the replay either and never will.
 
hayes said:
No need to apologize mate, can't make everyone happy. ;)

Whether they lift for his 200th or his final game makes no difference IMO. Lets not forget he had his chance to be almost guaranteed his 200th but instead he decided to elbow a young bloke in the head off the ball. How much more can we do for this bloke? I don't think it's the end of the world if we give it to him but it just reeks of individual over the team which is something even Watters has said has been a problem at St Kilda in the past. We need to get away from that.
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It is a tough one for the club because I agree that playing favorites was Lyon's biggest fault and cost us plenty and we should get away from it. That said - how did TDL get a game in NZ :confused: I don't think Kosi will get a run if Maister is in the side. I agree that he will get a run after the finals are beyond us or injuries of course. There is no way that Roo, Lee and Maister will play every game so I imagine he will get to 200. What an idiot though. I shake my head. I think Milney is in the same category.
 
MordySaint said:
Thanks tbaker, couldn't have said it better myself.
I still remember Ross Lyon quoting, theres no room in football for loyalty or sentiment.
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Agree with this, despite the controversy with Max, this is probably the way football works and imo should work.
 
tbarker said:
It is a tough one for the club because I agree that playing favorites was Lyon's biggest fault and cost us plenty and we should get away from it. That said - how did TDL get a game in NZ :confused: I don't think Kosi will get a run if Maister is in the side. I agree that he will get a run after the finals are beyond us or injuries of course. There is no way that Roo, Lee and Maister will play every game so I imagine he will get to 200. What an idiot though. I shake my head. I think Milney is in the same category.
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To beh honest, If I had to choose one over the other, I'd go with Maister, but he hasn't been gods gift to full forwards either, and If he gets into a slump and Kosi is clunking them at VFL level, well Kosi is a legitimate selection.
So half of it is in Kosi's hands.
 

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Sunshine Saint said:
Club culture you want. A culture of rewarding some over others, not based on merit. Is that the message you wish to develop? Sport, like business and often life, can be brutal and unforgiving. The fairy tale doesn't always work out as we would like. Kieran Perkins didn't win his third gold medal in the 1500 metres across three Olympics, nor Robert Harvey winning a premiership before he retired. When the dream works out it is a great moment for all, but more often than not, reality intervenes and it doesn't.

Kosi has been a good servant to the Saints. No one is attacking him or his contribution to the Saints, but no one including Kosi should be gifted games. If he deserves the games and has shown this when playing for Sandringham thats fine. But if we simply pick him to make up his 200 irrespective of form, that is disappointing and devalues others who have reached this milestone.

Kosi hasn't retained his position for the next fortnight, due to his own actions. If he misses the 200 he can be pleased at a long term career with the Saints, but appreciate that his own actions excluded him.
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I know where you're coming from mate, but you might want to take a look at Geelong and how they value their players, and their players milestone games. Even Monica got to 200 games. Did he/ does he deserve 200 games more than Kozzie? I would say not, what would you say?

We could learn a thing or two off them given they way they have gone over the past decade - and are still going.
 
MordySaint said:
Thanks tbaker, couldn't have said it better myself.

You forgot to mention the 2008 Grand Final - Max Hudghton/Ross Lyon/Zac Dawson disaster.

I still remember Ross Lyon quoting, theres no room in football for loyalty or sentiment.

Guess what Ross, your way didn't work and it near tore the Saints apart.
Click to expand...

MordySaint said:
Not sure if I should use the "what ifs" ... as they get you nowhere.

Still haven't watched the 2009 replay...

Maybe it just wasn't handled the right way at the time as I seem to remember it being as major distraction.
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Are you deliberately mixing up years??????
 
McCrann said:
I know where you're coming from mate, but you might want to take a look at Geelong and how they value their players, and their players milestone games. Even Monica got to 200 games. Did he/ does he deserve 200 games more than Kozzie? I would say not, what would you say?

We could learn a thing or two off them given they way they have gone over the past decade - and are still going.
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You may be right. Gestures like allowing a player to reach a milestone, go a long way with the whole group. It quite possibly could be the greater good, to get his last three games. The frustration is his poor poor form and stupidity in a number of his actions. But maybe time to bite my tongue and refine my shouting to the TV.
 
http://www.afl.com.au/news/2013-06-27/inch-by-inch-for-kosi

Watters "[Kosi] did a pretty good job last week on the back of some good form at Sandringham. I thought he played his role really well."

"He'll play again this week and it gets him to 199 and a game closer to reaching a pretty significant milestone.

"Only four per cent of players play 200 games so it looks like we're going to be able to get him there."
 
Wonder if we'll rest him next week (Against Fremantle) and get him to play his 200th against Carlton at Etihad the week after.

Doubt it though but would be good for him to play his 200th in front of most of the Melbourne saints fans that'll attend the game
 
Of the 12 000 odd players to have played AFL/VFL footy Kosi has kicked more goals than all bar 241 of them.
Of the 1560 StKilda players, Kosi has kicked more goals than all bar 14 of them. ( 3 more goals would be kind of nice ).
 

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