Remove this Banner Ad

Kouta Attacks Pago Pago!!

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

As much as I commend Kouta for giving Pagan a whack I hope the book is not just about the bad days of late.I cannot wait to read about his glory days like 1995 onwards.Kouta was a hero to me and my 2 new daughters have signed jumpers in their rooms by Kouta when they were eached Born a Blue.It is all in the past
Onwards and upwards
Long days and happy nights
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

bibi01 said:
I have not read to book, only what is in the paper.

Pagan should not be excused from critisism or blame for his time at carlton and the going's on at princes park during his time.

from reading the extracts in today's papers, it shows as bad as pagan was/may have been, the playing group were just as responsible for our poor performances.

"we used to sit around talking about how bad the gameplan was"

if the players had of spent as much time trying to follow instructions and execute the gameplan than they did complaing about it, things may have turned out different.

FFS- kouta was a champion player, but reading the extracts from his book, IMO he was not a true leader, he should have been uniting the playing group and takig action on the field, rather than doing some of his finest work off it.

shows once ratten, hickmott, mckay retired, how big a void was left in our leadership ranks.
Click to expand...


Very good post:thumbsu: I have never been a major Pagan fan, but when do senior players grow and play footy rather than sit and complain bout it.

Whilst Pagan may have not been good for our club, this article IMO shows just how immature our playing group became during those dark years.
 
Amazing read, we certainly didn't know the extent of what was going on behind the scenes until now... well I didn't anyway. Pagan was never a man to coach modern football.
 
easy on the Pagan bashing. i know Kouta's comments make u all feel justified about sticking the knives into Pagans back. But until we hear Pagan's side of the story it is not right to judge.

We all knew that the veterans that were developed under Parkin and Brittain were anti-Pagan b/c he brought in a diffrent system and methods. Instead of trying to adjust our so called leaders bitched about it. If we had retained Murphy, Hulme and Beaumont it wouldn't have significantly improved our on field peformance.

Also if Kouta bleeds navy blue then why did he hold the club to ransom with his contract? As for Kouta being appointed to a position at the club, please god no. We already have enough of the lads from the nineties team down the club, Sticks, Ratts, Bradley, Gleeson, Brown and Williams always sticking their two bobs in. Try and remember that it wasn't Pagan that destroyed the club. We had finished bottom before he arrived. At the very worst u can say that Pagan wasn't able to repair the damage quickly enough.
 
Can't believe a Carlton supporter ringing SEN this morning and complaining to KB that Pagan actually got 10 wins hence not getting an earlier draft pick at the end of that season! WTF?
 
bibi01 said:
I have not read to book, only what is in the paper.

Pagan should not be excused from critisism or blame for his time at carlton and the going's on at princes park during his time.

from reading the extracts in today's papers, it shows as bad as pagan was/may have been, the playing group were just as responsible for our poor performances.

"we used to sit around talking about how bad the gameplan was"

if the players had of spent as much time trying to follow instructions and execute the gameplan than they did complaing about it, things may have turned out different.

FFS- kouta was a champion player, but reading the extracts from his book, IMO he was not a true leader, he should have been uniting the playing group and takig action on the field, rather than doing some of his finest work off it.
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter how they executed the game plan, it was f#cked. It must have been very disheartening playing in such a way in that you know you couldn't win.
 
nutcase888 said:
easy on the Pagan bashing. i know Kouta's comments make u all feel justified about sticking the knives into Pagans back. But until we hear Pagan's side of the story it is not right to judge.

We all knew that the veterans that were developed under Parkin and Brittain were anti-Pagan b/c he brought in a diffrent system and methods. Instead of trying to adjust our so called leaders bitched about it. If we had retained Murphy, Hulme and Beaumont it wouldn't have significantly improved our on field peformance.

Also if Kouta bleeds navy blue then why did he hold the club to ransom with his contract? As for Kouta being appointed to a position at the club, please god no. We already have enough of the lads from the nineties team down the club, Sticks, Ratts, Bradley, Gleeson, Brown and Williams always sticking their two bobs in. Try and remember that it wasn't Pagan that destroyed the club. We had finished bottom before he arrived. At the very worst u can say that Pagan wasn't able to repair the damage quickly enough.
Click to expand...


Great post!

Pagan did not help the situation or even maybe did not nurture the club in the way it should of been.

I think the main reason for our demise was list management up to 2002.

Picking up guys like livo murray vance sporn wiggins and these clowns as top pics n the draft does not help.

After the 1999 grand final we should of offloaded 1/4 for draft picks and begun to rebuild.

This was not done due to Elliot.

Brittain was a hack, he coached aflq up here and was useless, Carlton were right to get rid of him, and at the time Pagan was arguably the best coach in Australia.

Loseing 2 years of draft will severely holt any clubs progress. This was always going to put Carlton back 5 years, which it has.

Yes Pagan may of not been the right coach in the end but the playing group definately showed little leadership on the field, which was Kouta's responsibility.

I love Kouta and think its great he has come out and said the truth, but at the end of the day he is a footballer and should of used his football do the talking, rather than organising secret meetings, thats what sticks is for.

How would you feel if you were Pagan, knowing all this was going on behind your back, but you had a contract to fulfill, no wonder you could tell he's heart wasn't in it.

The point is the last 5 years have been shit, and as a club I hope we have learnt from this. Obviously by appointing Icke and Swann we have learnt something.

One tip for the future keep the Coach Carlton through and through.

Go Ratts.....

Go you Blue Baggers its time!
 
I'm not a big fan of comments after someone's departure, but if anyone has the right to do it, Kouta does. The real positive, is that that's in the past now, and the changes have been made. I have a feeling that the rapid younger player development we saw under Ratten late in the season, will continue big time in 2008. :)
 
parrot said:
I'm not a big fan of comments after someone's departure, but if anyone has the right to do it, Kouta does. The real positive, is that that's in the past now, and the changes have been made. I have a feeling that the rapid younger player development we saw under Ratten late in the season, will continue big time in 2008. :)
Click to expand...

do you think kouta will have a chapter on how he and his manager (allison) brought carlton to their financial knees with their contrcts and contract negotiation tactic's?
 

Remove this Banner Ad

nutcase888 said:
easy on the Pagan bashing. i know Kouta's comments make u all feel justified about sticking the knives into Pagans back. But until we hear Pagan's side of the story it is not right to judge.

We all knew that the veterans that were developed under Parkin and Brittain were anti-Pagan b/c he brought in a diffrent system and methods. Instead of trying to adjust our so called leaders bitched about it. If we had retained Murphy, Hulme and Beaumont it wouldn't have significantly improved our on field peformance.

Also if Kouta bleeds navy blue then why did he hold the club to ransom with his contract? As for Kouta being appointed to a position at the club, please god no. We already have enough of the lads from the nineties team down the club, Sticks, Ratts, Bradley, Gleeson, Brown and Williams always sticking their two bobs in. Try and remember that it wasn't Pagan that destroyed the club. We had finished bottom before he arrived. At the very worst u can say that Pagan wasn't able to repair the damage quickly enough.
Click to expand...

You know Pagan don't you, either related or mates? Not having a go at your opinions, but I can not understand how one person could be obssessed with one guy so much...pagan was a great coach in the 90s, but he did nothing great at our club, this doesnt mean he was crap or anyone could have done better, but you make him out to be our saviour for doing nothing special.

If he didnt have the respect of the players, then he does go down as a bad coach in my books (at least while at carlton), he should of realised and done something about it...but yer seriously, do you actually know Pagan, is that why you stick up for him soo much?
 
nutcase888 said:
easy on the Pagan bashing. i know Kouta's comments make u all feel justified about sticking the knives into Pagans back. But until we hear Pagan's side of the story it is not right to judge.

We all knew that the veterans that were developed under Parkin and Brittain were anti-Pagan b/c he brought in a diffrent system and methods. Instead of trying to adjust our so called leaders bitched about it. If we had retained Murphy, Hulme and Beaumont it wouldn't have significantly improved our on field peformance.

Also if Kouta bleeds navy blue then why did he hold the club to ransom with his contract? As for Kouta being appointed to a position at the club, please god no. We already have enough of the lads from the nineties team down the club, Sticks, Ratts, Bradley, Gleeson, Brown and Williams always sticking their two bobs in. Try and remember that it wasn't Pagan that destroyed the club. We had finished bottom before he arrived. At the very worst u can say that Pagan wasn't able to repair the damage quickly enough.
Click to expand...
I simply cannot believe you can sit there and still defend Pagan after these comments. Koutoufides is as Carlton as a man can get- dont even think about bringing his contract into question- he took a number of pay cuts to keep us going. Pagan on the other hand, was more than happy to receive bundles of money for doing absolutely nothing.

And we have heard Pagan's story- as soon as he was sacked, with the season in progress, he came out and publically whined about, and trashed Carlton, and said how much better things were at North. **** him.

And as for the veterans we had at that stage, there is no evidence to suggest they didnt try to go along with Pagan. Koutoufides obviously tried, and tried hard, because he loves the club that much, but Pagan was a dictator after the $$$$ and cheap success, wasnt prepared to lay the foundations for a strong club, so why the hell would they stay?

nutcase88, seriously mate, you are either directly related to Denis Pagan, are Denis Pagan (in which, get the **** out of my sight), or are delusional.
 
parrot said:
I'm not a big fan of comments after someone's departure, but if anyone has the right to do it, Kouta does. The real positive, is that that's in the past now, and the changes have been made. I have a feeling that the rapid younger player development we saw under Ratten late in the season, will continue big time in 2008. :)
Click to expand...
So true. Time to put Denis Pagan where he deserves- into our distant memory- and never think of him again.
 
Don't believe Kouta has done the club, Denis or himself any favours by coming out now in a book. Whilst some of what he says has merit why didn't he have the balls to front Denis face to face and really make a difference? Sure he did have a couple of chats but nothing to the extent of what he has written in the book. Obviously the fear of what he could lose by being open and honest with Denis blocked him. If he really wanted to put the club ahead of himself he would have done all he could to get Denis to change his ways.

By the sounds of it Kouta had made his mind up about Denis very early on. Then instead of working with him became a victim to him instead. Kouta is a highly talented footballer and imo had one or 2 good years left. Reading what he has written leads me to believe that his attitude more so than his body shortened his career and his effectivness. He could have been a great onfield influence with the emerging side we now have.

Hopefully this sort of conflict and victim mentality can be cleansed from the club from now on.
 
damage_inc07 said:
You know Pagan don't you, either related or mates? Not having a go at your opinions, but I can not understand how one person could be obssessed with one guy so much...pagan was a great coach in the 90s, but he did nothing great at our club, this doesnt mean he was crap or anyone could have done better, but you make him out to be our saviour for doing nothing special.

If he didnt have the respect of the players, then he does go down as a bad coach in my books (at least while at carlton), he should of realised and done something about it...but yer seriously, do you actually know Pagan, is that why you stick up for him soo much?
Click to expand...


I agree that Pagan was a bad coach in his time at Carlton but I also believe he still had the ability and capability to be a benefit to Carlton. However guys like Kouta had to stand up and look to him as an equal rather than knife him. This was not helping anyone. Further for Kouta to bag the long kicking game with such a definitive attitude in my opinion is showing Kouta's lack of awareness. This has been the problem at Carlton. Many talented and powerful people working against each other.
 
bibi01 said:
do you think kouta will have a chapter on how he and his manager (allison) brought carlton to their financial knees with their contrcts and contract negotiation tactic's?
Click to expand...

I didn't like that. But players manager's in general ain't the most popular people among AFL Clubs. In a way the problem was made worse by the instability at our Club, and poor management at the time. When a Club is performing better on-field and off-field, better contract deals happen, because the Club negotiates better, and the player in question is more content playing for the Club. :)
 

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Interesting article, admire Kouta for being honest. But sometimes its better not to air your dirty laundry in public. Face to face :thumbsu:
 
lou73 said:
Interesting article, admire Kouta for being honest. But sometimes its better not to air your dirty laundry in public. Face to face :thumbsu:
Click to expand...

Don't mind him coming out in public however imo he should have had it all out with Denis first. Then he could have written about Denis' response in his book aswell.
 
bluejudd said:
After the 1999 grand final we should of offloaded 1/4 for draft picks and begun to rebuild.
Click to expand...

This is a very emotional issue for everyone concerned as we've had to live with the shit that collectively Collo, Elliott, Smorgon, Pagan and Brittain have put us in, not to mention O'Sullivan, BUT....

The comment above is completely moronic. The rest of your post may or may not be right BUT

Let me get this straight. You struggle for a few years. You get a team together with a few stars in Kouta, back from years in the wilderness, Camporeale, Ratten, Allan and SOS....and you make a grand final from nowhere.

And you want to start again?

The Blues were COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED in pushing that list, the list that made a GF in 1999, to see how far it would go. We werent far off in 2000 either, having Kouta the superstar in supreme form and Ratten dominating as well. The Bombers were magnificent but who could say what we could have done if Kouta hadn't have injured himself? We were a gun team in great form and a Carlton v Essendon GF in 2000 would have been something to see.

2001 it was clear we werent quite there, coming 6th, and that was when we needed to bite the bullet, but to say 1999 we should have cleared the decks is just stupid.
 
I can't say I object to Kouta's opinion. He's waited until both guys are gone, so he can't be accused of being disruptive. His criticism is measured and not personal. We've all heard of player groups agitating to get coaches sacked and it never sounds attractive, but what else do you do if you can see it all going down the gurgler? Some coaches get to make their critics look like fools - Pagan didn't, and won't ever.

We won't get a reply from Pagan until the end of 2008. After that he'll be free to say what he wants. In the meantime Pagan will just shrug it off and ask "How many premierships has Anthony Koutifides coached?". Sorry Denis, but after five years that one's wearing thin.
 
Why does it not surprise you guys - you carlton blokes will eat your own if things dont go your way.

Pagan was silly for leaving North ang going to the Blues, it ruined his amazing coaching record.

It's sad but true, Carlton supporters have a love/ hate relationship with every human - you love Lance Whitnall - then you want him fed to the lions.

This situation just shows how little rspect the Carlton Captain had for his coach, this infighting has been going around for a long time - and will continue to dog the blues, because your players have their own agendas - (FEV) until you put all that aside - you will strugle to perform on field.

Chris Judd's arrival will be intersting - I think the whole state is waiting for Fev's first dummy spit.....

Round 1 - Carlton Vs Richmond........sell out Can't wait! This will be bigger then grand final day.:thumbsu:
 

Remove this Banner Ad

Kouta Attacks Pago Pago!!

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top