Kreuzer & Warnock

[Crippa#9]

Between them they took 7 marks on the weekend. Not one was contested. ALL uncontested.

To put in perspective Dean Cox took 13 marks. 6 Contested.

Whilst Robbie's tap-work has been good it has glossed over his weakness around the ground. In the last 4 games, Warnock has taken a total of 2 contested marks.

Kreuzer took some terrific contested marks against Essendon but we need our rucks to be stronger in the contest consistently when it comes to marking - too many times in the last few weeks they have been knocked off the ball too easily & perhaps the mids are not protecting enough for them.

It will be interesting if we can lift in this area and how Hammer returns in the VFL...

 

[Donstuie]

This, and the frequency of shoulder injuries amongst our players for the past couple of years, tells me that for all the good our fitness staff do with the group, not enough is done to improve their upper body strength. It gets tiresome seeing our big guys not asserting themselves, and at worst spending lengthy periods on the sidelines with their arms in a sling.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Between them they took 7 marks on the weekend. Not one was contested. ALL uncontested.

To put in perspective Dean Cox took 13 marks. 6 Contested.

Whilst Robbie's tap-work has been good it has glossed over his weakness around the ground. In the last 4 games, Warnock has taken a total of 2 contested marks.

Kreuzer took some terrific contested marks against Essendon but we need our rucks to be stronger in the contest consistently when it comes to marking - too many times in the last few weeks they have been knocked off the ball too easily & perhaps the mids are not protecting enough for them.

It will be interesting if we can lift in this area and how Hammer returns in the
VFL...

Would I like more contested marking from our ruckman?.....yeah sure.

But your comment regarding perspective is perplexing

Warnock aside, you are comparing a 22 year old ruckman 6 games in after returning from a knee construction with Cox, whom people are now calling perhaps the greatest of the modern era.

Thought he contested well in the forward 50 on the weekend. Did not take a huge number of marks but competed and got the ball to ground for our crumbers.

Warnock nullified the ruck contest with Goldstein and neither had a huge impact on the game. In other words, did his job.

Perspective is a word that should only be used when it is applied.

 

[Blue since 72]

As a team we're not great at contested marking. We have some great overhead marks; Simmo, Eddie, Jeff and a few others but apart from maybe Waite we don't have anyone approaching a Cloke.

Unfortunately for us the press is bringing contested marking, particularly in the F50 back into the game and we're certainly lacking there.

Strength and size and knowing how to use both are big assets but most of our KP players are still very young so hopefully more pre-seasons and experience will see us improve in this area.

(Josh Kennedy is a classic example. His last year at Carlton they were bouncing off his nose he was that bad).

I believe young Mitchell can take a good grab if that's any consolation.

Re: 206 and Krueze specifically, as you say 206's ruck work is pretty good although he was beaten pretty well by Goldstein but he is certainly not adding value in the forward line or anywhere else for that matter. He's 24 now and I don't know whether he will ever put on the size people are expecting, some players just can't bulk up.

Krueze is not rucking much (due to fitness I'd assume) and is expected to be jumping around taking pack marks on a reconstructed knee (with more games under his belt he will get more confident in his pack marking), plus watching some 'down the ground' shots on the tv during the North game he doesn't seem to know where or when to lead (he's still learning the role so needs to be cut some slack).

Bar Waite most of our KP players need more physical development and games experience before they hit their best.

 

[qldbluesman_43]

Would I like more contested marking from our ruckman?.....yeah sure.

But your comment regarding perspective is perplexing

Warnock aside, you are comparing a 22 year old ruckman 6 games in after returning from a knee construction with Cox, whom people are now calling perhaps the greatest of the modern era.

Thought he contested well in the forward 50 on the weekend. Did not take a huge number of marks but competed and got the ball to ground for our crumbers.

Warnock nullified the ruck contest with Goldstein and neither had a huge impact on the game. In other words, did his job.

Perspective is a word that should only be used when it is applied.

Nobody's saying they should be as good as Cox. But I think it is a fair comment that those statistics show how big the gap is between where our rucks are at and what the best can do. Not one contested mark, and only a handful of uncontested marks, between our 2 biggest players is not a good stat to have.

 

[Crippa#9]

Would I like more contested marking from our ruckman?.....yeah sure.

But your comment regarding perspective is perplexing

Warnock aside, you are comparing a 22 year old ruckman 6 games in after returning from a knee construction with Cox, whom people are now calling perhaps the greatest of the modern era.

Thought he contested well in the forward 50 on the weekend. Did not take a huge number of marks but competed and got the ball to ground for our crumbers.

Warnock nullified the ruck contest with Goldstein and neither had a huge impact on the game. In other words, did his job.

Perspective is a word that should only be used when it is applied.

Respect your comment but disagree.

If we were in the position of say a Richmond? I would be happy with Robbie's performance on the weekend, however to say he 'did his job' by simply nullifying his opponenent is a cop out.
If we are going to be serious finals contenders than we need Robbie & Kreuzer to have a bigger impact around the ground & more importantly in the air. When you are 200+cm's having an average of 12 possessions & 2 marks is not good enough for a team striving to play in a premiership.
Both have been terrific at their trade of tap rucking, outstanding in fact. However the game requires a ruckman to provide a significant contribution around the ground now and support the mids as much as possible.

Of course I understand Kreuzer will not be back at his peak untill next season, however his performaces first up against Sydney & last week against Essendon indicate that his fitness levels are quite good.

I wasn't comparing their talent when using Cox as perspective, I was simply outlining what a team is capable of when their 'big' man has an impact other than just at ruckwork.

 

[OnceWeWereKings]

Nobody's saying they should be as good as Cox. But I think it is a fair comment that those statistics show how big the gap is between where our rucks are at and what the best can do. Not one contested mark, and only a handful of uncontested marks, between our 2 biggest players is not a good stat to have.

I think you will find that the example given for perspective by the OP was made with the output of Cox on the weekend as opposed to that of the two Carlton ruckmen.
If fair perspective was used perhaps the example should have been made in reference to Goldsteins output on the weekend?
Same age, same game, same game structure.
Goldstein 13 possessions, 1 mark.
To use Cox as an example of where Kreuzer should be at this point of his career is in my viewpoint not perspective at all.
He has just comeback from a knee reconstruction FFS.
Do I think Warnock needs to impact the game more? Yep, sure do.
But the thread was titled Kreuzer & Warnock.
Adding a second marking target to the forward 50 such as Waite would take a huge amount of pressure off our rucks being used as the only high ball target in our forward 50. This may allow them to compete one on one and give them a better chance to take a contested mark.
A luxury that maybe Cox had on the weekend with Lynch, Kennedy, Darling and alike running around in what was for most part a game played man on man.

 

[gbatman]

it's a problem that we haven't got a ruckman who takes a mark. Kreuzer keeps nearly holding marks and Warnock folds like a deck of cards as soon as body contact is even mentioned.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Cox has the ability to get to the drop of the ball before tall defenders and opposing ruckmen do. Sure, he can outmark talls as well, but the amount of times you see him reach over from the back of a pack to snatch a ball above mid sized opposition is amazing.

It is his pace and judgment just as much as his strong hands half the time.

 

[blues4flag]

6 contested marks is far from the norm for ruckman. In fact, it's far above the norm for anybody who isn't Travis Cloke.

 

[Sublime]

Warnock at worst broke even with Goldstein who has been far and away the second best ruckman in the league this year (behind Cox). Not sure what people expect from him, but that's a pretty damn good day out in my opinion. Had Goldstein out on his feet in the second half after he DOMINATED us in the ruck contests in the first qtr and a bit.

Harsh critics round here as usual.

 

[Blue since 72]

6 contested marks is far from the norm for ruckman. In fact, it's far above the norm for anybody who isn't Travis Cloke.

But you'd agree we struggle to take contested marks in our F50 and that the ruckmen, 206 in particular are not giving us value in that area?

On the lead we're ok but the press has taken away all the wide open spaces and we need to get better at contested marking in our forward line.

This is one area when the Pies have us cold with Dawes, Cloke, Jolly and Brown.

 

[a1118374]

Warnock's marking is not outstanding, but his work at ground level has been great in the past few weeks. Kreuze will be fine

as mentioned above comparing with a BOG game by Cox is just silly

 

[Blue since 72]

Warnock at worst broke even with Goldstein who has been far and away the second best ruckman in the league this year (behind Cox). Not sure what people expect from him, but that's a pretty damn good day out in my opinion. Had Goldstein out on his feet in the second half after he DOMINATED us in the ruck contests in the first qtr and a bit.

Harsh critics round here as usual.

Don't know about breaking even. Goldstein had 36 hitouts for the game vs 22 for Warnock and 13 for Kruezer and Goldstein is currently 2nd in the league to Jamar for hitouts to advantage.

Pretty sure Swallow didn't scalp all of his clearance's from Warnock's ruckwork.

Warnock's marking is not outstanding, but his work at ground level has been great in the past few weeks. Kreuze will be fine

as mentioned above comparing with a BOG game by Cox is just silly

He wasn't comparing him directly to Cox, just using Cox as an indication of what can be done by a ruckman. Now Cox has alot more time in the game so maybe it's not the best example but I think everyone on here would acknowledge that Warnock drops alot of marks in body on body contests.

 

[Blue Dimension]

We miss Sauce.

He'd have been playing second ruck easily this year. His contested marking around the ground was invaluable.

 

[Sublime]

Don't know about breaking even. Goldstein had 36 hitouts for the game vs 22 for Warnock and 13 for Kruezer and Goldstein is currently 2nd in the league to Jamar for hitouts to advantage.

Pretty sure Swallow didn't scalp all of his clearance's from Warnock's ruckwork.

Like i said, Goldstein smashed Warnock in the ruck in the first quarter. Checking the stats at 1/4 time, Goldstein had something like 18-4 hitouts over Warnock and more touches. So after that, Warnock definitely at least matched Goldstein and probably even shaded him around the ground. Got loose on a few occasions to play link man. Goldstein was absolutely buggered in the second half keeping up with him and its no surprise Swallow's influence lessened as Warnock got into the game.

 

[prettyboy65]

I dont think anyone is complaining about the ruckwork of Warnock, but I must agree with his lack of physical presence.

The amount of times coming out of our defensive 50 we attempt to hit up Warnock and he is out marked by a smaller player is rediculous.

What we need to look at as a team is different targets to hit up, I dont think Warnock is ever going to be strong in the contested marking department.

 

[Sublime]

We miss Sauce.

He'd have been playing second ruck easily this year. His contested marking around the ground was invaluable.

Contested marking isn't the be all and end all of a good ruckman. Rather than take big pack marks i'd much prefer a player be able to find time and space around the ground. Warnock ran off Goldstein a few times on the weekend and got clear to play as a link man which is what we need. Much higher percentages than being able to take the odd contested mark. If a player doesn't have one skill, then he has other qualities to bring to the table.

Contested marking in a pure ruckman isn't as proliic a skill as you would expect from someone their height. So many great rucks over the years weren't particularly handy in this department, and many of the good contested marking rucks started out in other positions. (Ottens etc.)

 

[Sublime]

I dont think anyone is complaining about the ruckwork of Warnock, but I must agree with his lack of physical presence.

The amount of times coming out of our defensive 50 we attempt to hit up Warnock and he is out marked by a smaller player is rediculous.

What we need to look at as a team is different targets to hit up, I dont think Warnock is ever going to be strong in the contested marking department.

Definitely not a strong ruckman, and is quite easily knocked off the ball in marking contest. Will never have a big frame to do this and will almost always rely on outreaching his opponent.

 

[Blue since 72]

Like i said, Goldstein smashed Warnock in the ruck in the first quarter. Checking the stats at 1/4 time, Goldstein had something like 18-4 hitouts over Warnock and more touches. So after that, Warnock definitely at least matched Goldstein and probably even shaded him around the ground. Got loose on a few occasions to play link man. Goldstein was absolutely buggered in the second half keeping up with him and its no surprise Swallow's influence lessened as Warnock got into the game.

Fair enough although to quote one more stat, Goldstein's time on ground was 99% vs Warnock's 77% so I guess Goldstein wasn't getting the chop out that Warnock was.

 

[Sublime]

Fair enough although to quote one more stat, Goldstein's time on ground was 99% vs Warnock's 77% so I guess Goldstein wasn't getting the chop out that Warnock was.

That's good man management by the Blues really, and 20% extra chance for Goldstein to get more hitouts. Kangas had quite a few players play the whole game, any wonder we got on top in the end.

 

[Blue since 72]

That's good man management by the Blues really, and 20% extra chance for Goldstein to get more hitouts. Kangas had quite a few players play the whole game, any wonder we got on top in the end.

Yeah you're right, but it's the obvious reason why he was shagged as the game wore on.

Not a bad effort by Goldstein with Mcintosh out though. I don't think they have anyone else to really step in.

 

[Sublime]

Yeah you're right, but it's the obvious reason why he was shagged as the game wore on.

Not a bad effort by Goldstein with Mcintosh out though. I don't think they have anyone else to really step in.

Definitely. Far and away the second best ruckman this year. Its not easy to single handedly ruck for a full season, may see him start to fade towards the end of the year.

 

[Claypigeon]

We miss Sauce.

He'd have been playing second ruck easily this year. His contested marking around the ground was invaluable.

I miss him too. .. Reads the play well, takes a solid grab, knows his limitations and works well to over come them. .. Most of all I like that he is a thinking ruckman. .. The times last year when he went up for a pack mark just to body block (particularly for Kreuzer) was amazing, it really helped Kreuze get some marking confidence. ..

Warnock's biggest deficiency is that he doesn't seem much of a thinker. .. In the Bulldogs game Hudson was running past the ball and just blocking his influence in the tap outs and he never adjusted. .. Also in a marking contest he doesn't think about his positioning. .. Once he receives the ball he appears to just do the automatic thing instead of thinking it through. .. He also makes me cringe when he taps it to space in the defensive 50. ..

Warnock's main benefit is his tap work particularly his boundary line work and he is good at the second efforts. .. He needs to start thinking about his deficiencies or start imposing his frame more. ..

Kreuzer has things to work on too but he is only recently back and already shown more than Warnock this year. ..

Peviously not a Hammer fan but his games leading up to his injury make me hopeful that he gets back in time to push Warnock out of the side as I see his ability to think his way through his deficiencies as much more advanced. ..

 

[200cm tapruckman]

206 has the ability to tap the agget..