League rankings

[Goat]

I'd like to kick off a discussion about how the Aussie Rules leagues of the world stack up. I'd like to see, from people who might know, if there can be broad agreement on what tier each league may fall in. I don't want it to be arguing over which league is slightly better than another - I just want broad terms, so people can get a feel for what the various standards are around the place.

Obviously you could start with the AFL. Borrowing loosely from the US baseball system, you might call this level AAA (triple A) or something.

But since most of the players in the world (including Australia), play amateur level or only very partially professional (semi pro or less), then I thought we could start with that as A level.

E.g. maybe describe VAFA A grade as A level. Similarly SAAFL as A. Presumably for the WA amateurs too. Now I think recent history shows the top VAFA squad being stronger than the SAAFL, but in broad terms probably similar. Remember, as such an attacking game, small differences turn into massive wins - even in the AFL a team can get pumped by 100 points and push a top team the following week (e.g. Essendon vs Adelaide then West Coast, but there are many examples every year).

You might describe the middle amateur ranks as roughly B level, and the lower end where you can just be a less than average player and still get a game somewhere would be C level. A bunch of people having a kick for the first time where there is no history of the game might be D - basically just beginners.

So then above A level you'd have AA for the top state leagues which are pro/semi pro, such as the WAFL, SANFL and VFL. And the AFL fits in as AAA.

So some of the leagues in the US like the MAAFL might be around B or C level. Maybe the BARFL with a lot of good Aussie expats would be B. Similarly the Irish league with many players coming from a good Gaelic football background. So where then would the NZ and PNG leagues sit I wonder? Obviously outside of Australia a lot of teams would have some top players but the depth would fall away quickly.

Obviously you could break it down into 10 or more levels, but then deciding exactly where a league falls would be near impossible.

So here is my first attempt (in no particular order within levels). A lot of the international leagues in B maybe should be in C?

AAA - AFL

AA - WAFL, SANFL, VFL

A - VAFA, SAAFL, WAFA top grades, QAFL

B - VAFA, SAAFL, WAFA middle grades, US MAAFL, US EAFL, NZ AAFL, Ireland's ARFLI, Denmark's Premier League, PNG's NCD League, Canada's OAFL

C - VAFA, SAAFL, WAFA lower grades

D - social type leagues, SARFL (Scottish league in 2nd season), AFLG


None of this is to under-rate or belittle any league - just trying to get an idea where they all sit. Hopefully all the non-Aussie leagues will move up the rankings.

Feel free to pick apart individuals rankings, or the whole level system. The can of worms is open....

 

[Pantsless]

Having been involved in the BARFL and seeing the games week in week out, it's hard to gauge the level that the play at..

I umpired a North London game one day and Matt Connell (ex-WCE and Adelaide) was playing in the same team as a Brit with 10 games total experience and the difference in skill is obviously at the different ends of the spectrum.

The Grand Final I umpired was a great game and some of the Brits are half decent.

Also, players don't take the games s seriously as they would back home. I refuse to drink Friday night's before I umpire here in Melbourne, but in London, if there was a Wallabies game on in the morning, I would have a couple of pints then go off and run two games. I know the players would drink the night before and none of them would be as fit as they would be here.

 

[GoalFlags]

a couple of pints before umpiring should be mandatory

 

[Mobbs]

I was sure I had a newer version of the following somewhere but currently its all I could find in the footypedia warehouse. It has no international leagues so you can use it as a tentative blank canvas if you wish.

Note that league rankings are always going to be a contentious issue. These rankings were determined through averaging various contributors' opinions.

TIER 1
AFL (Nat)

TIER 2
SANFL
VFL
WAFL

TIER 3
Diamond Valley FL (Vic)
Eastern FL Div 1 (Vic)
VAFA A Grade

TIER 4
Ovens & Murray (Vic)
SAAFL Div 1

TIER 5
AFL Canberra (ACT)
Essendon DFL (Vic)
Goulburn Valley (Vic)
MPNFL (Vic)
Northern Territory FL (NT)
SAAFL Div 2
VAFA B Grade

TIER 6
Geelong FL (Vic)
Northern Tasmanian FL (Tas)
Southern FL (Tas)

TIER 7
AFLQ (Qld)
Ballarat FL (Vic)
Bendigo FL (Vic)
Central Aust CC (NT)
Central Murray FL (Vic)
Hampden FL (Vic)
Riverina FL
SAAFL Div 3
Southern FL (SA)
VAFA C Grade
West Gippsland-La Trobe FL
Western Border FL

TIER 8
Barossa Light Gawler FL (SA)
Central AFL (NT)
Great Southern FL (SA)
Murray FL (Vic)
North Central FL (Vic)
Sunraysia FL
Sydney FL
VAFA D Grade
Western DFL Div 1 (Vic)
Wimmera FL

TIER 9
Alberton FL (Vic)
Central Highlands FL (Vic)
Hills FL (SA)
Horsham DFL (Vic)
Katherine DFL (NT)
Mid Gippsland FL (Vic)
Riverland FL
Southern FL (Vic)
Tallangatta DFL
Tiwi Islands FL
VAFA D1
Warrnambool DFL

TIER 10
Colac DFL (Vic)
East Gippsland FL (Vic)
Ellinbank DFL (Vic)
Gove FL (NT)
Heathcote DFL (Vic)
Mallee FL (Vic)
Maryborough-Castlemaine DFL (Vic)
North Gippsland FL (Vic)
Ovens & King FL (Vic)
Riddell DFL (Vic)
Top End FA
VAFA D2

TIER 11
Adelaide Plains FL (SA)
Barkly AFL (NT)
Golden Rivers FL (Vic)
Lexton Plains FL (Vic)
Loddon Valley FL (Vic)
Mallee FL (SA)
Mininera DFL (Vic)
Northern Plains FL (SA)
Riviera FL
VAFA D3

TIER 12
Maningrida FL (NT)
Millewa FL (Vic)
Omeo & DFL (Vic)
Upper Murray FL
VAFA D4
Woomera DFL

TIER 13
VAFA Club XVIII

 

[RussellEbertHandball]

From what I have seen of footy played O's and speaking with friends who have played O's, and watching suburban footy in 4 states, I reckon the best O's league would struggle to get into Tier 8

 

[Goat]

There's a lot of work in that list. My only query would be perhaps a few too many tiers? I wonder if the top side from one tier would beat the bottom side from the next tier up? You'd need to be an expert across all the leagues to sort them so finely.

Any other opinions - could the BARFL or MAAFL go higher than Tier 8? Still, tier 8 sounds low, but there's some decent leagues in there - which makes me think the graduations are too fine at the lower level.

What's VAFA club XVIII?

 

[Rooster]

and what about NSW clubs ???

 

[cos789]

and what about NSW clubs ???

And WA clubs .

Too many tiers as fortunes fluctuate very quickly .
Just too difficult to compare leagues for lots of reasons .

 

[Mobbs]

Rooster and Cos: If you set your browser to Actually Read The Post Before Criticising you will notice that I stated clearly at the top : rankings were determined through averaging various contributors' opinions. There are no NSW/WA leagues because when this project was put the all the folks of the Regional Leagues board, no-one with WA or NSW was interested in contributing. Sounds like little has changed. I apologise for not having personally been to witness every footy league nationwide at your behest.

Goat: Club XVIII is basically a 'muckaround' level of VAFA. I take on board your suggestion of overtiering, at the time when the list was being developed, the number of tiers was expanded/collapsed as differing opinions came in. I personally think the number of tiers is pretty good at the moment, as quality of footy certainly covers a broad spectrum. Always happy to alter as new opinion comes in.

I'm just going to scratch up my thoughts now, please forgive if these are 'all over the shop'.

Live Updating :
#1. I am trying to locate the format for application of chess rankings, as 20 years ago when I first came across it I was impressed with the process and was thinking of applying it to leagues based on interleague competitions. This way the league rankings change depending on their results against other leagues.
#2. Where league v league is not available, there can be club v club. In this case, the clubs at the time must be given a percentile and/or weighted representation level weighted back to their current performance level within their league, and their league's current ranking. After the result, we'd mathematically work back through the process, to work out a real winner in a weighted fashion, and then use a ranking/seeding update process a la chess or tennis to update the leagues.

I am yet to outline a full submission on this.

International Leagues Rankings :
Now, I had not thought of ex-Aust leagues originally, the only thoughts I can contribute is from seeing USA v Ireland and Denmark v one of the Pacific teams in IC02 at Kardinia Park. I remember remarking at the time that USA v Ireland looked about D3 or D4 VAFA level. First is to disclaim the accuracy of this approach, this is very hit and miss. Second, these were the best of each countries, so the ARFLI would not be as high a standard as this Ireland job done on the Revs. US leagues would possiblt have been lower again as the Revs were a conglom of the best from multiple leagues. Then of course, form could have been down (or up!) during these matches, which I have no authority to comment on. But, maybe, at a glance, D4 or Tier 12?

Where league v league might fail us :
EG in the case of a league not playing interleagues, and some Asian Cup clubs not ever playing internationals other than AC or other localised jousts.

As described above, club v club might be with way to go in these occasions.

Steps Towards A Live Updating Process :
To enable a live-updating process :
1. An initialisation is mandatory (a starting ranking list, even if based on guesswork).
2. A ranking update system is required. Again, I am searching to see what impressed me in the 1980s so much about the chess process.
3. An approach that either includes or excludes valid club v club to affect league rankings must be determined or refused.
4. A criteria needs to be developed to determine when a match will be a 'ranking' or 'seeding' match. (I'm just throwing up terms, I don't know if there is a dictionary difference between 'ranking' and 'seeding'. I hate tennis because there are no footballs in it).
5. Red Tape worth 115 more steps to combat rorting, exclusion and abuse of the system should be developed.

I will keep on the search for more info on ranking systems. Time is of the essence as I still also :
1. Developing ESES Warehousing Software for all scores and other data.
2. Developing Merger Rating processes.
3. Developing text variances on the footypedia database.
4. Integrating 1mb of text data in the waiting file.
5. Jobhunting!

I'll keep yers posted.

 

[blueswade]

As much as we would all like to think overseas leauge are good, the fact is that all the leagues in Australia have junior leagues which then lead up to senior football so untill the overseas nations start developing juniors which then continue on to play senior football they would not be up to the standard of the worst leagues in Australia.
Except for possibly PNG as the game is played at all levels.

 

[Goat]

I agree that the US leagues would be lower standard than the Revos, but in Ireland's case I'm not so sure. It is a small league, so the Irish national side makes up a large % of the Irish players in that league. Then chuck in expat Aussies, most of whom would play at a reasonable level, and the league is probably decent.

Similarly the UK - the British players are probably not the best in that league - more so than Ireland.

Which all goes to show how hard it is to judge all this. But still interesting trying.

 

[Goat]

As much as we would all like to think overseas leauge are good, the fact is that all the leagues in Australia have junior leagues which then lead up to senior football so untill the overseas nations start developing juniors which then continue on to play senior football they would not be up to the standard of the worst leagues in Australia.
Except for possibly PNG as the game is played at all levels.

What you're saying about juniors is true, but I wouldn't say that all overseas leagues are below the worst in Australia. Lower grades in lower leagues aren't great, and there are plenty of "developing" areas outside of traditional footy states, that wouldn't be great. And again, you get some decent expat Aussies plus some good local athletes and not all international leagues are that bad.

 

[cos789]

Some practical considerations just to confuse the issue .
Remember when WA and SA played Vic in State Football .
When WA or SA beat Victoria what did that proove ?
That WA & SA had a bunch of twenty players that could better
play dry weather football on expansive grounds .At the time we
would all have to agree that 1. the depth of football in the leagues didn't
compare and 2.The styles (and player types) were completely different .
When an Ireish team played a North american team it was noted the Irish were the styles were completely different .
IMO it's very hard to judge skill with different styles and so many tiers .
On the other hand you have to have some practical method and no
method is perfect so we can only work with what we've got , whether it's rep side vs rep side ,league vs league,premier vs premier, touring challenge or subjective qualification .

 

[cos789]

P.S. I was talking about the 11 tier suggestion not the original thread as regards number of tiers and those included .

In Australia the pinnacle of our competition is the AFL and the national side .
O/S , it's basically the opposite . They start with a national side and generally try to work downwards as they expand .So the pinnacle of succes O/S would be having a city regular big league with colts , juniors and Auskick , even women and tag footy .Has any anybody tried comparing how
profesional the different leagues are ?