The Law Lindt Cafe Siege - Inquest Findings

[NSWCROW]

Continued from the original Martin Place Siege thread:
https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/siege-in-martin-place-sydney.1084131/page-69


Inquest hands down it's findings wednesday.

Janet Fife-Yeomans had a write up in the DT today on it.



If multiple heads don't roll.....

 

[Power Raid]

Inquest hands down it's findings wednesday.

Janet Fife-Yeomans had a write up in the DT today on it.



If multiple heads don't roll.....

I doubt if there will be accountability. It's a shame though that a clean shot wasn't the preferred decision though. but that requires someone making a tough decision.

 

[NSWCROW]

I doubt if there will be accountability. It's a shame though that a clean shot wasn't the preferred decision though. but that requires someone making a tough decision.

Did you see the 4 corners special tonight ?

Any ( street level ) police blame in this is miniscule imo ( when you see the litany of failures in the years leading up to that horrible day )


Scipione saw the writing on the wall and jumped.
Cath Burn was overlooked as his replacement.
NSW Opposition leader John Robertson stood down after vouching for Monis on a previous matter.

2/3 there

Asio wigs
Judges
DPP
Pollies ( or their staffers at least who can't be ****ed noticing a 2nd page with crucial info that may have saved lives )

How many of them will go called out ??


I'm not satiated by that , imagine how the victims families feel !!!!

 

[Power Raid]

Did you see the 4 corners special tonight ?

Any police blame in this is miniscule imo ( when you see the litany of failures in the years leading up to that horrible day )

I missed it unfortunately.

I scratch my head with criminal justice in this nation. It is all too often we hear of a horrendous crime and later understand the criminal history of the accused. Surely we can do better, which not only includes better policing but better support by the courts when prosecuted. Adding to this a much better integration between mental health, our criminal justice system and our social security.

Sadly we are going the other way with the NDIS (as opposed to the DSC) and as a result we will make life harder for those most at risk.

 

[NSWCROW]

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/22/4669879.htm

Part 1

Part 2 next monday

 

[Maggie5]

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/22/4669879.htm

Part 1

Part 2 next monday

Watched, so many mistakes made, really feel for the families.

 

[Power Raid]

http://www.abc.net.au/4corners/stories/2017/05/22/4669879.htm

Part 1

Part 2 next monday

The military changed during the period I was in there. The older officers would say expect the troops to act professionally by decisively. It wasn't a concept to unleash needless killing, rather the concept of acting with appropriate action in the case of conflict and using initiative.

The next generation of officers were by the book and pro geneva convention cards regarding rules of engagement. These cards are great sitting in the UN council, but would be effective suicide if followed in the field.

It is obvious both systems have their pros and cons but at the end of the day, servicemen/ policemen have to remember what their objectives are. No card can replace professionalism and Martin Place is the cost of doing so.

Personally I see the point of having armed officers, if they aren't going to use them. Oh and the military should have been called in, if the police weren't confident of taking the shot.

 

[WeetBixKid]

Wish they'd gone deeper into how he got his Visa in the first place. That was the biggest failure of all, especially since Iran warned us of his criminal/psychological background.

 

[Bodicifer]

The main issue is the ridiculous 'justice' system and the fact this refugee was let in. How a judge can give bail to someone like him over and over again for the crimes he was charged with is unfathomable. The left wing civil libbers have a lot to answer for. Why they see fit to give criminals the same rights as the innocent victims is beyond me. As for the refugee advocates, welcoming them here and sitting around singing kumbaya with terrorists doesn't work.

As far as the choices made by the police are concerned, they were always going to be damned if they do or damned if they don't. The sniper has him in the scope but doesn't know how far the glass window will cause the bullet to ricochet. The SOG's don't know if the bloke does have a bomb strapped to him. The one thing they do know is that he is a lunatic. It's a very tough call and one in all reality that shows in hindsight how easy it is for lives to be lost in these situations when you are dealing with lunatics who don't care about life, all they care about is taking it away.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

The main issue is the ridiculous 'justice' system and the fact this refugee was let in. How a judge can give bail to someone like him over and over again for the crimes he was charged with is unfathomable.

Perhaps if the DPP had opposed bail it might have helped...

 

[RustyHawk]

Well, with the Lindt Cafe Seige inquest to bring down its finding tomorrow cant help but think the N.S.W. Police, especially those directly involved will look upon the findings by coroner Michael Barnes as akin to "a male telling a female what its like to give birth to a child!"

Two and a half years to review what happened over about 18 hours.

Wow, will they find faults. Yes, of course they will. They will find an "i" wasnt dotted, a "t" wasnt crossed and other banal crap. I say crap because at the end of the day its all about results and I am particularly impressed with how the N.S.W. Police achieved this result. In total a good result. Not the best but still by far not the worst.

When you review what those 2 groups of N.S.W. Police who went into the Cafe after the terrorist had shot Tori Johnson did, just a mindblowingly professional job. To have only 2 officers; one from each group; to shoot that is just brilliant. With flash bangs going off, movement from all the different hostages and the possibility of copping a shotgun blast from the terrorist or worse, a bomb blast, just hats off to them.

Sadly this event is like what I suspect many on this forum base their views on such real life crime dramas as 'Castle', 'Criminal Minds and their ability to burst in just, just as the killer is likely to strike' and Bones that an innocent hostage was killed in the rescue.

This rescue should go down with the successful hostage release operations such as Entebbe & Iranian Embassy siege both of which saw 1-3 hostages killed during the rescue.

And, if you dont think those cops did a good job. The next hostage situation, and yes there will be one, send Coroner Michael Barnes and the lawyers at the inquest to rescue the people........ just pray your not one of them who needs rescue.

 

[Procrastinator35]

Well, with the Lindt Cafe Seige inquest to bring down its finding tomorrow cant help but think the N.S.W. Police, especially those directly involved will look upon the findings by coroner Michael Barnes as akin to "a male telling a female what its like to give birth to a child!"

Two and a half years to review what happened over about 18 hours.

Wow, will they find faults. Yes, of course they will. They will find an "i" wasnt dotted, a "t" wasnt crossed and other banal crap. I say crap because at the end of the day its all about results and I am particularly impressed with how the N.S.W. Police achieved this result. In total a good result. Not the best but still by far not the worst.

When you review what those 2 groups of N.S.W. Police who went into the Cafe after the terrorist had shot Tori Johnson did, just a mindblowingly professional job. To have only 2 officers; one from each group; to shoot that is just brilliant. With flash bangs going off, movement from all the different hostages and the possibility of copping a shotgun blast from the terrorist or worse, a bomb blast, just hats off to them.

Sadly this event is like what I suspect many on this forum base their views on such real life crime dramas as 'Castle', 'Criminal Minds and their ability to burst in just, just as the killer is likely to strike' and Bones that an innocent hostage was killed in the rescue.

This rescue should go down with the successful hostage release operations such as Entebbe & Iranian Embassy siege both of which saw 1-3 hostages killed during the rescue.

And, if you dont think those cops did a good job. The next hostage situation, and yes there will be one, send Coroner Michael Barnes and the lawyers at the inquest to rescue the people........ just pray your not one of them who needs rescue.

This is all well & good, but the police aren't really the issue....The issue lies with the lack of leadership in adequately dealing with the crisis swiftly enough, before it escalated to the point that it did.....On many occasions prior, police marksmen had many clear shots in which to take this nutter out with no harm caused to others....Whosoever hesitated to act in that regards, is to blame for all other deaths ( other than Monis), that transpired after the fact.

 

[NSWCROW]

Live findings now

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

This is all well & good, but the police aren't really the issue....The issue lies with the lack of leadership in adequately dealing with the crisis swiftly enough, before it escalated to the point that it did.....On many occasions prior, police marksmen had many clear shots in which to take this nutter out with no harm caused to others....Whosoever hesitated to act in that regards, is to blame for all other deaths ( other than Monis), that transpired after the fact.

And at the time, the word in social media circles was that the Australian police should be praised for their restraint in handling the siege after countless other hostage scenarios deteriorated into massacres when police attempted to end it. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Snipers can miss but everybody still knows they fired; police would have been well aware of that.

The coroner is 100% correct here; acknowledging what happened was not perfect but recognising it was done under limited information and extreme duress.

 

[2Knights]

When terrorists take hostages in these situations and threaten to blow up a bomb, how often are they actually carrying a bomb? Offhand, I can't think of any historical cases where terrorist/s threatening to use a bomb actually had a bomb. It seems to me that terrorists that do have bombs, don't take hostages and make threats - they go ahead and use them. Appreciate if anyone can provide a counter-example.

 

[iluvparis]

When terrorists take hostages in these situations and threaten to blow up a bomb, how often are they actually carrying a bomb? Offhand, I can't think of any historical cases where terrorist/s threatening to use a bomb actually had a bomb. It seems to me that terrorists that do have bombs, don't take hostages and make threats - they go ahead and use them. Appreciate if anyone can provide a counter-example.

Didn't the Munich Olympics guys blow up one of the helicopters? Might have been with grenades though

 

[Nuggs Bunny]

When terrorists take hostages in these situations and threaten to blow up a bomb, how often are they actually carrying a bomb? Offhand, I can't think of any historical cases where terrorist/s threatening to use a bomb actually had a bomb. It seems to me that terrorists that do have bombs, don't take hostages and make threats - they go ahead and use them. Appreciate if anyone can provide a counter-example.

Beslan?

 

[2Knights]

Didn't the Munich Olympics guys blow up one of the helicopters? Might have been with grenades though

Yes, according to Wikipedia, one of the helicopters was blown up with a hand grenade with hostages inside.

 

[2Knights]

Beslan?

At Beslan, a bomb was exploded early in the siege. So in this case, bombs weren't a possible threat but a verified threat.

 

[IKE TURNER]

sniper should have blown the cowards brains out when he had a chance, the real problem (which wont be addressed) is iran warned Australia this bloke is no good but we still took him and he proceeded to send disgraceful letters to parents of soldiers killed overseas which he should have been deported for, then got his missus to murder his ex-missus in cold blood yet we still let him walk the streets then it was discovered he had committed dozens of sexual assaults (very un-muslim like) and then STILL walking the streets until the end result, mind boggling disgraceful and incompetent-but no one will be held responsible.

 

[Present Not Past]

sniper should have blown the cowards brains out when he had a chance, the real problem (which wont be addressed) is iran warned Australia this bloke is no good but we still took him and he proceeded to send disgraceful letters to parents of soldiers killed overseas which he should have been deported for, then got his missus to murder his ex-missus in cold blood yet we still let him walk the streets then it was discovered he had committed dozens of sexual assaults (very un-muslim like) and then STILL walking the streets until the end result, mind boggling disgraceful and incompetent-but no one will be held responsible.

Who do you think should be held responsible?

 

[NSWCROW]

Who do you think should be held responsible?

Start with whoever rubber stamped his original visa and work your way down.

 

[NSWCROW]

sniper should have blown the cowards brains out when he had a chance, the real problem (which wont be addressed) is iran warned Australia this bloke is no good but we still took him and he proceeded to send disgraceful letters to parents of soldiers killed overseas which he should have been deported for, then got his missus to murder his ex-missus in cold blood yet we still let him walk the streets then it was discovered he had committed dozens of sexual assaults (very un-muslim like) and then STILL walking the streets until the end result, mind boggling disgraceful and incompetent-but no one will be held responsible.

What i feared all along.
This is the real inquest that needs to happen.

Govt ministers
Who was Immigration minister in 96 when he was granted a visa ???

Minister for Immigration
Following the Coalition's rise to government at the 1996 election, Ruddock was appointed to the Cabinet as Minister for Immigration and Multicultural Affairs. In this role, he administered the Department of Immigration and Multicultural Affairs and presided over the Howard government's policies on asylum seekers.

 

[MC Extra Dollop]

Obviously different circumstances but I guess the thinking behind the 'we should have gone in earlier' statements is the way the FBI handled the Columbine massacre. The first thing that they wanted to ascertain was whether it was a 'hostage', or 'non-hostage' situation. Basically the difference is whether the perpetrator has any real desire to negotiate and whether there is any realistic chance of them making it out alive. So while people might automatically assume incidents that formed the Columbine massacre (e.g. the library shooting) were 'hostage' situations, they really weren't because Harris and Klebold weren't interested in getting anything besides what they had and they knew they were going to die. The thing is, the planned response for a 'hostage' and a 'non-hostage' situation is pretty much the complete opposite, so it is absolutely critical to get it right.

Now, if we apply that to the Lindt Café siege, my thinking is that Mick Fuller's statement that 'we should have gone in earlier' is along those lines: there was no hope of a peaceful resolution, they didn't fully recognise that at the time and perhaps that is where the authorities erred.

 

[RustyHawk]

..Whosoever hesitated to act in that regards, is to blame for all other deaths ( other than Monis), that transpired after the fact.

Gosh you make it all sound so easy. The boys would have got the call about 9am saying some nutter with a gun and a bomb strapped to him was holding a group of innocent Aussies in the City. Righto old chaps they would have said. Lets finish breakfast, get in the jallope and drive on over. Set up, get a good compfy position, scope the target, adjust for the wind, cos, you know, wind in these city office buildings is just sometime swirly and tricky.... then work out the setting to get through either concrete and or that really thick glass that surrounds the building, then more calculations and adjustments for once the bullet has punctured through all that, it gets through the wood panelling in which the terrorist was hiding behind, deep inside the building. Again they would need to know what sort of wood panelling it was, how thick, strong etc, like the glass....or they could just make it up? Further making sure of course they get an exact idea of what the terrorist looks like and is dressed like, cant get the wrong one. Make sure the hostages stay still and are not moving around, like holding signs up in the windows and sitting down again, possibly blocking a view or partial view, deep inside the cafe.

Of course you also know it has to be a 'Kill Shot" not just "a shot". Disabling, wounding, leaving him partially paralysed is not an option. Must be 100% kill shot. That means the shot must enter the brain, explode and kill instantly. Lights out. 99.9% and it's no go. Of course you realise this because without a kill shot, he can detonate any bombs he might have or set off his shotgun killing lots of hostages because who knows, he might have gone to the Manchester Home School of bomb making?

So anyway, the snipers are working all this out and then they ask...."what is my legal justification for taking this persons life?" - cos at this stage he has made:

• Theats to kill
• said he has a bomb and will use it
• holding people against their will with the threat of violence.
• he wanted to talk to the PM; and
• he wanted an ISIS flag.

Let me remind you of your words

"
The issue lies with the lack of leadership in adequately dealing with the crisis swiftly enough, before it escalated to the point that it did.....On many occasions prior, police marksmen had many clear shots in which to take this nutter out with no harm caused to others....Whosoever hesitated to act in that regards, is to blame for all other deaths ( other than Monis), that transpired after the fact."

Your argument is they should have killed a man when they had no legal justification to do so for threating to harm some people......
(up until 02:03am the next morning )
That is why we have laws to stop that very sort of thing going on.
You do not want Police to be
Judge
Jury
&
Executioner​