Lions Guernsey survey results: An open letter to Malcolm Holmes

[Sir G]

I'm all for tradition would have liked the original jumper for about 100 years, really liked the Fitzroy jumper the Lions wore against the Bulldogs earlier this year, should wear it for Melbourne games!

 

[BuntonRules]

Great work to all involved. The current administration have done great things for the club and I hope they can continue that by fixing the biggest mistakes of the past.

Agree 100%. Please Mr Johnson, Holmes & all involved - this is a serious issue that is eating at our club like a cancer. Let's work together & fix it. It does not take a genius to see that support - both Qld & Vic - merchandising, history and future respect are all impacted by this issue.

Like so many, I love my Lions, they are an important part of my life. But the paddlepop is not the true symbol of my club.

gold member no.1031706

 

[LION UP]

Please return the proud and grand original lion to the guernsey. A cartoon character denigrates the history and culture of a proud club.

 

[Gibbo_88]

.

I hope that in reading these comments that Malcolm doesn't get the impression that the majority of good work the club has done lately in many facets of administration is being disregarded. It isn't. Much of the work by the club lately has been widely supported.
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This is a really important point, since the review there has been a lot of really good things happening on and off the field. It really sounds like the right people are at the club and a return to success isn't too far off.

I have no connection with Fitzroy as I only started following AFL in 2001 but I was really impressed when the team wore the Fitzroy guernsey this year as it was something that wasn't our current guernsey and it meant a lot to the players to be able to play in it. I found the way that the logo/guernsey was changed without any member consultation disappointing and the the comments from the CEO at the time about it made me lose respect for the club. It is associated with a season that many would rather not remember and a player that caused a lot of problems. The current guernsey needs to be changed, not necessarily back to what it used to be (which i thought was the best in the AFL) but at least something similar. At the end of the day the club is represented by 22 players wearing the maroon, blue and gold and the logo for 22 weeks a year, at least get them wearing something that the players, members and supporters are passionate about.

I need a new guernsey as mine is looking pretty old but would be embarassed to wear the paddle pop lion. I know next year is not likely but please let's have this sorted for 2014. I think there would be quite a few people that would take up a membership again if they felt that the club wanted to know what people think should be our next guernsey.

Membership # 1051467 & 1051468

 

[Mayestro]

Sensational work to all involved.

Certainly since the new board has been in place I have been heartened by the inclusive direction they have taken, especially with the Victorian base, as well as with Fitzroy. However I know plenty of ex-Fitzroy Brisbane supporters who will not renew until the old guernsey has been reinstated.

As a member I would hope that the board would at least consult with their constituents on such an important matter.

Membership No. 2039793

 

[Chasing the Dream]

I personally fork out for multiple memberships each year, coaches club, player sponsorships (some great choices in the past.. Fev, Mitch thank goodness for Rich and Jed) merchandise from club and places like official AFL auction sites and whilst I will never stop supporting our club through buying my membership, I will reduce my commitment in coming seasons if I see no hope of a change, or at the very least some indication that a members forum or similar be conducted during 2013.

I fear this quest may initially be treated in a way which will not please many here. We will have new sponsors in 2013, and as such a new jumper. Sponsors wont be happy if the club announces a change in 2014 so early, who would buy a 2013 version in that case??

We must keep trying to be heard. For me it will be 2014 that will signify a tipping point in my financial contribution to the club.

 

[Brisroy Fitzbane]

The addition of this option was also used as further evidence of the design of the Lion, beyond merely a change in overall guernsey design, being important to supporters.

I found this part particularly compelling. It really shows more than just a black and white poll of two jumpers.. I think it points to the reason for division on the current jumper, being the use of the 'FrankenLion'. This makes sense I guess. Isn't it strange that after the unfortunate legal case that occurred between Fitzroy Football Club and the Briabane Lions - relating to the breach of Merger Agreement clause, we now effectively have two logos? That's right isn't it. We now must feature the Fitzroy Lion on all official club stationary as well as the website for a defined timeframe. Now.. I find it rather strange that on our current football jumper, we don't even feature either of our logos?!? Not our Fitzroy Lion logo, nor our 'Paddlepop' Face logo (which has infact grown on me somewhat, though I would still dislike seeing it front and centre on the jumper, and the manner in which it came about still leaves a sour taste). Instead we have this rank, oversized, overdesigned hybrid!!! Seems kinda dumb from a 'branding' perspective.

In hindsight maybe we could have included a 4th version with the 'face' by itself (without being grafted onto the much loved and adored, classical, timeless 'Fitzroy Lion'). But I guess we put this together at very short notice, and I think Ginger Greatness raised a very valid point, that we have managed to donate tens-of-thousands of dollars worth of professional market research, so I do hope the club values our input (and could always include a forth option when they do get around to conducting their own poll).

For what it's worth... I personally really like the 3rd option that appeared on the survey. I believe TBD came up with that one. It looks modern, slick, simple... And I particularly like the composition with the higher yolk and the darker blue. It allows the Lion to sit higher on the player's chest. Whilst I think the 'Paddlepop' jumper looks okay in this example.. It looks particularly odd, when worn by the players, as it creates the disturbing effect of 4 eyes staring back at you. I know what the designers were trying to achieve at the time. Give the Lion a personality. But it clearly failed. They failed when they discounted the importance of tradition. Heraldry holds clout and garners respect.

Finally, if the Club does want to create it's own poll to distribute in the 2013 Membership Packs, I will gladly donate my design time as well as print of DL inserts to include in packs.

 

[Grade_Zero]

Even glossing over the sneaky, underhanded manner in which the guernsey was changed in the first place (which is a serious issue and needs to be rectified), the current guernsey only needs to be compared to the rest of the league to see it is woefully out of place. All other teams (with the possible exclusion of Gold Coast) have simple, traditional designs. Western Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, and Fremantle have all recently adopted new guernsey designs that adhere to this trend with great success. Our current guernsey is comfortably the worst in the league. It is cartoonish, and evokes very little pride among a lot of supporters. The current administration have done well to heal the club in many ways, but this guernsey issue is a giant, unsightly wound right across the face of the club. It is a continual reminder of a dark period in our history, and it is time to treat it.

 

[____]

I participated in this survey. Was nice to meet PattyKisagun in person (and surprised that the surveying actually went ahead).

Congrats to everyone who made the survey that went ahead possible.

I found it interesting that for the most part the 18+ males were all for the old Lion. Females were a little more partial to the paddlepop... did anyone else notice a similar trend?

Interestingly I actually know one female (casual) Lions fan who said she likes the paddle-pop Lion because it is frowning... but that was two years ago and she was sixteen at the time. I also know a guy (seventeen at the time) who doesn't even follow AFL, saw the 2011 members cap and said the Lion on the back (real Lion) was better than the Lion on the front (paddlepop Lion). That conversation was last year.

For what it is worth I uploaded this onto my facebook recently (worth noting that I have less than 70 facebook friends), this is what happened...

The one covered up in maroon is me - obviously I uploaded it and I am a Lions member who went to every home game this year (plus the GC away game).
The one covered up in red is a female who had been a Lions member since 2004 and has only missed out on three home games since being a member. She missed out on one home game this year but also attended the away game against Carlton and GC.
The one covered up in light blue isn't an AFL fan at all (to the best of my knowledge). She is eighteen years of age and went to school with me. Her ex-boyfriend is a Geelong fan.
The one covered up in dark blue watches an occasional AFL game. He is nineteen years of age. I went to school with him and also go to uni with him and do the same course and classes.

 

[youtwo]

Thanks to those involved for the hard work done on this.

I endorse what others have said - please take note Mr Holmes and Board members, this is a serious issue!

The jumper isn't a marketing tool to attract new members and sell merchandise - it is far more important than that. The jumper is the club and our history lives with it. In our case 3 wonderful premierships and over 100 years of tradition from a founding VFL club as well as the Brisbane Bears heritage.

The fact that members were not consulted prior to the change being made was outrageous.

I endorse that a proper survey of all members to be conducted prior to the 2013 season so that once and for all the members can be heard. Surely it is not too late to get this moving.

Brisbane Lions Gold Member #1016448 (member 1997 - 2012)
Fitzroy member (1978 -1996)

 

[____]

Even glossing over the sneaky, underhanded manner in which the guernsey was changed in the first place (which is a serious issue and needs to be rectified), the current guernsey only needs to be compared to the rest of the league to see it is woefully out of place. All other teams (with the possible exclusion of Gold Coast) have simple, traditional designs. Western Bulldogs, Port Adelaide, and Fremantle have all recently adopted new guernsey designs that adhere to this trend with great success. Our current guernsey is comfortably the worst in the league. It is cartoonish, and evokes very little pride among a lot of supporters. The current administration have done well to heal the club in many ways, but this guernsey issue is a giant, unsightly wound right across the face of the club. It is a continual reminder of a dark period in our history, and it is time to treat it.

The sad thing is GC's home jumper looks a lot less "franchisy" than our current one

 

[Grade_Zero]

The sad thing is GC's home jumper looks a lot less "franchisy" than our current one

Yeah, we went from a proud, successful club with a unique history, to looking more franchisy than a franchise club.

 

[____]

Yeah, we went from a proud, successful club with a unique history, to looking more franchisy than a franchise club.

It makes me sad.

If you showed someone completely new to Aussie Rules the GC and our home jumper and told them one team is a franchise and the other has over 100 years of combined history and made them guess which one is which... they would get it wrong!

 

[Sir G]

They thought they would make some money by changing the jumper, but makes you wonder how many people refused to renew their memberships due to this?

 

[GingerGreatness]

Those results (analyzed professionally by Haso ) are quite simply, a disaster for the current design.

If 5 blokes stood outside the MCG/Etihad before a Collingwood game, Carlton game, Essendon game, Richmond game with clip boards and conducted a poll as to whether the main feature of that team's home jumper should be removed and replaced with another one - does anyone doubt the response? Would the 5 blokes make it home?

The existing jumper should have killed it. It failed miserably.

The experience in taking the survey to the streets was a great experience. This club has some amazing, amazing people who, regardless of their views, deserve to be at least consulted with respect to something so pivotal to our club's culture. To anyone reading this who participated in the survey - Thankyou

 

[The Brisbane Beast]

Great work.

The people whose salary we contribute to, should already understand that a team that wins back-to back-to back AFL Premierships, and is considered one of the greatest teams in AFL history, should explicitly display it's roots, history and tradition, at every turn.

Cherishing the past, builds a stronger future for the Club we all love so much.

 

[cmt26]

Good work guys.

Look at teams that have strong heritage

Collingwood, Geelong, Hawthorn, Sydney, Carlton.

These teams never change their main jumper.

Seems a joke that my kids may one day watch the 01-03 Premierships and see us wearing a different jumper.

That jumper is our heritage and our club flag, it should remain.

 

[justlookingaround]

Lions are going to be a good side next year... probably pushing on top 6 (maybe they'll pull a West Coast and Adelaide? Who knows!) Hopefully the club decides to switch the guernsey in line with a new era of success or whatever they'll want to call it.

I'm an outsider of the club, but I support this change 101%

 

[Hornet1]

Hi,
Long, long time reader, first time poster. I love the club, just ask my wife, not only did my first son get named in honour of the club, Ryan (rhymes with Lion) Jonathan (Brown Dawg); I also have thousands of dollars of merchandise in my shed. My aim is to own every Guernsey that has ever been created by the club. I've got fitzroy and bears guernsey's, training guernseys and singlets plus anything else I can get my hands on lol.

Everything but the paddlepop.... Personally I do not like what the Guernsey symbolises, why it was brought into use or how the fans concerns have been treated IRT this issue.

A jumper is a symbol much like a flag or banner carried into battle is a symbol. Ours once was a symbol of strength, unity and pride; it was feared by our opponents. The paddlepop carries none of these things. The paddlepop symbolises an arrogant administration who betrayed its supporters and players. I will never be accept it.

Significantly it has also divided this club, the passionate fitzroy supporters can no longer relate to their connection to the Brisbane Lions and our Melbourne supporter base has suffered. In brisbane despite solid improvement, average crowds are down, merchandise sales have stalled and they (the administration) can't give away the Guernseys. Just look at how many times a supporter has said, "yea I found an older Guernsey on ebay for sale".

Please Malcolm, return our pride, give us back our Guernsey! Let our club greats in Simon Black and Jonathan Brown finish their years in the Guernsey that symbolises our clubs proud history and complete dominance in 01, 02 and 03. I have loved your administration from afar, you have almost repaired the damaged caused by the previous board, this is the final piece of the puzzle.... Fix our Guernsey

GO LIONS

Rob
Membership number:1852913

 

[____]

Great first post Hornet1, very well said

Edit: 17 likes and counting with your first ever comment on BigFooty

 

[whatboutbob]

Welcome aboard Hornet1. Quality first post. Thanks for sharing your story.

Keep 'em coming folks.

I'm loving seeing the lurkers come out of the woodwork.

The membership numbers are a great touch too.

Just all around I suppose...

 

[Haso]

Another round of thanks really need to go to GingerGreatness, Caiphus, Jorgo, Haggis McHaggis, and PattyKisagun for their work on Sunday afternoon. They did a stellar job in recruiting as many people as they did, and sacrificed their afternoon to ask complete strangers about their love of the club. Hats off, this wouldn't have been able to happen without them.

We wouldn't have recruited nearly as many people either if Brisroy Fitzbane (formerly Kuklinski) hadn't put his time and energy into designing the questionnaire as well as he did, or to printing them out for us. Kuk did a fantastic job on such short notice.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

This has been stated, but personally I would be okay with the current design being our guernsey if it was put to a members preferential vote and came out the winner.

I can't objectively argue that it's a bad design. What I can objectively state is that it resembles the darkest period in the merged club's history, and considering it was never sent to a vote, should not currently be the design we wear.

Malcolm, we aren't one-eyed fans just against the current design because it doesn't look nice to us. We're against it because of what it stands for. What the old jumper stood for yet was thrown away without a second thought. And what it's continued existence stands for in regards to the club's attitude towards its members and supporters, and the value it places on us.

I want nothing more than to see our boys run out each week in a jumper that makes me, and all who hold this club close to their heart, proud to be a Lions fan. Until a vote of is taken on the guernsey, this simply cannot be the case.

 

[whatboutbob]

This has been stated, but personally I would be okay with the current design being our guernsey if it was put to a members preferential vote and came out the winner.

I can't objectively argue that it's a bad design. What I can objectively state is that it resembles the darkest period in the merged club's history, and considering it was never sent to a vote, should not currently be the design we wear.

Malcolm, we aren't one-eyed fans just against the current design because it doesn't look nice to us. We're against it because of what it stands for. What the old jumper stood for yet was thrown away without a second thought. And what it's continued existence stands for in regards to the club's attitude towards its members and supporters, and the value it places on us.

I want nothing more than to see our boys run out each week in a jumper that makes me, and all who hold this club close to their heart, proud to be a Lions fan. Until a vote of is taken on the guernsey, this simply cannot be the case.

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm all too familiar with that yearning for the return of that feeling of pride simply watching the boys run out on the paddock, PattyK. I've felt so strangely detached these past few years. It does not sit well.

While I personally find the "paddlepop" aesthetically unappealing, that doesn't explain the base twist in my guts and mental grimace every time I see it. That's deep-seated association and a sense of betrayal at work.

Ultimately if the members were polled transparently and the current guernsey triumphed, while I would be disappointed that our club's members had joined Bowers and Kelly en masse in turning their back on our history, I would accept it and move on. At least our opinions would have been heeded. Our Club would once again represent 'us'.

 

[PattyKwasagun]

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm all too familiar with that yearning for the return of that feeling of pride simply watching the boys run out on the paddock, PattyK. I've felt so strangely detached these past few years. It does not sit well.

While I personally find the "paddlepop" aesthetically unappealing, that doesn't explain the base twist in my guts and mental grimace every time I see it. That's deep-seated association and a sense of betrayal at work.

Ultimately if the members were polled transparently and the current guernsey triumphed, while I would be disappointed that our club's members had joined Bowers and Kelly en masse in turning their back on our history, I would accept it and move on. At least our opinions would have been heeded. Our Club would once again represent 'us'.

It really hit home for me how much this was a betrayal of our history on Sunday, when one of the many people I chatted to and had the survey filled out by told me he was a past player. Barry McKenzie was his name, and after a bit of research I found out that he played from 1968-72.

He spoke with great emotion about the guernsey, and conveyed that he had feared 'nobody gave a s*** anymore'.

He went on to say something that will stick with me for a long time, and which I'd like to pass on to all on here as I feel it's quite relevant.

'Nothing makes me happier than knowing there are people like you who care so deeply about our football club.'

We aren't fighting the fight of aesthetics, which is all that anyone pro-paddlepop could really be doing. This is so much more. I just hope Malcolm and the club realise that.