Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[GreyCrow]

GC, would you be able to have a look at the death reg. for the great Len (Leonard Charles) Fitzgerald, who died in Adelaide in 2007? I'm hoping it has the names of his parents, as it's believed his father played some reserves games for Collingwood (District), but we have not been able to find out his name. There seems to be very little on Ancestry with regards to Len, which is very surprising. He was born in 1929, so his birth came after the Vic BDM cutoff point.

Unfortunately I don't have that much access

I did note AustralianFootball only has Len when I believe it should be Leonard Charles as noted in his wedding notice in Vic bdm and newspaper death notice

As a further note I tried searching ( as I'm sure you did ) wedding notices in the paper for parents names but found 2 picture notifications without any more info.

That indicates to me his parents may have passed at the time of the wedding

I will look later

 

[35Daicos]

Unfortunately I don't have that much access

I did note AustralianFootball only has Len when I believe it should be Leonard Charles as noted in his wedding notice in Vic bdm and newspaper death notice

As a further note I tried searching ( as I'm sure you did ) wedding notices in the paper for parents names but found 2 picture notifications without any more info.

That indicates to me his parents may have passed at the time of the wedding

I will look later

Thanks for that. I have searched a fair bit in the past, without getting anywhere, but just had a (somewhat belated) brainwave!! After he debuted (aged just 15) he said that he had lived his whole life at (the suburb of) Collingwood, so tracking the parents down via the electoral roll should be possible, especially if they lived at the same place for all those years. Even better, in the book Champions of Collingwood: The 125 Greatest Magpies, it says "When Len Fitzgerald was a young boy growing up in Bendigo Street, Collingwood~". So their names should be there somewhere!

I've tried the Sands & McDougall Directories as well, and they aren't named at Bendigo St. for 1935, 1940 or 1945. There's plenty of Fitzgerald's living at Collingwood in the 1930's and 1940's, but I'm not seeing any in that street! Puzzling!

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Let's try a different route.

Did Len marry and, if so, what's his wife's name?

 

[35Daicos]

Let's try a different route.

Did Len marry and, if so, what's his wife's name?

Yes, he got married in 1949:

There's even a photo of him and his wife in the paper (on the wedding day). They had a son in 1950:

By the sound of the stories on him he just has to have been living at Collingwood in 1945 (when he debuted), but I don't know why I'm not finding the family at Bendigo St. at least at some stage! I'll keep looking, and if anyone can come up with something clever to find them that would be great!



^ Interment date.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks for that. I have searched a fair bit in the past, without getting anywhere, but just had a (somewhat belated) brainwave!! After he debuted (aged just 15) he said that he had lived his whole life at (the suburb of) Collingwood, so tracking the parents down via the electoral roll should be possible, especially if they lived at the same place for all those years. Even better, in the book Champions of Collingwood: The 125 Greatest Magpies, it says "When Len Fitzgerald was a young boy growing up in Bendigo Street, Collingwood~". So their names should be there somewhere!

I've tried the Sands & McDougall Directories as well, and they aren't named at Bendigo St. for 1935, 1940 or 1945. There's plenty of Fitzgerald's living at Collingwood in the 1930's and 1940's, but I'm not seeing any in that street! Puzzling!

I looked for this most of the afternoon
FOOTBALL'S - Man of The Week - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1945

He has already risen to greater
football heights than his father,
who played a few games for Col
lingwood Seconds. Len received
his carlv football coaching from
Mr Grogan, a master at Colling

 

[GreyCrow]

Let's try a different route.

Did Len marry and, if so, what's his wife's name?

Beryl Frances White 1949. No help with notice in paper

 

[GreyCrow]

Senior looked like he played 1926-1930

 

[35Daicos]

I looked for this most of the afternoon
FOOTBALL'S - Man of The Week - The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) - 7 Jul 1945

He has already risen to greater
football heights than his father,
who played a few games for Col
lingwood Seconds. Len received
his carlv football coaching from
Mr Grogan, a master at Colling

Thank you very much indeed for doing that. This probably is a bit off topic here, so I appreciate the interest in helping out! I've discussed this issue in the past with the Collingwood (club - history) folks, and I'd say it's because of that article we're so keen to work out who the father was. We have two Fitzgerald's who played seconds for us around 1930 or so: Bill and Tom. I'm almost certain Bill is William Thomas, and that he got married in 1932, ruling him out as Len's father. The other chap is some sort of a chance (he played at Carlton, Coburg, and all over the place), but I don't think I was ever that keen on him either. Our records (especially through the 1920s) aren't complete, and there's every chance another Fitzgerald played for our Reserves team then.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thank you very much indeed for doing that. This probably is a bit off topic here, so I appreciate the interest in helping out! I've discussed this issue in the past with the Collingwood (club - history) folks, and I'd say it's because of that article we're so keen to work out who the father was. We have two Fitzgerald's who played seconds for us around 1930 or so: Bill and Tom. I'm almost certain Bill is William Thomas, and that he got married in 1932, ruling him out as Len's father. The other chap is some sort of a chance (he played at Carlton, Coburg, and all over the place), but I don't think I was ever that keen on him either. Our records (especially through the 1920s) aren't complete, and there's every chance another Fitzgerald played for our Reserves team then.

It truly sounds like they are Collingwood through and through and would unlikely be. Carlton player - plus it would have been mentioned

 

[the croucher]

Thank you very much indeed for doing that. This probably is a bit off topic here, so I appreciate the interest in helping out! I've discussed this issue in the past with the Collingwood (club - history) folks, and I'd say it's because of that article we're so keen to work out who the father was. We have two Fitzgerald's who played seconds for us around 1930 or so: Bill and Tom. I'm almost certain Bill is William Thomas, and that he got married in 1932, ruling him out as Len's father. The other chap is some sort of a chance (he played at Carlton, Coburg, and all over the place), but I don't think I was ever that keen on him either. Our records (especially through the 1920s) aren't complete, and there's every chance another Fitzgerald played for our Reserves team then.

I think W T (William Thomas) is the father and I suspect that Len was born out of wedlock. Ancestry trees list a daughter being born in 1931, the year before the marriage.

Bill Fitzgerald was with Sandringham for about three years before returning to Collingwood in 1934

FOOTBALL. - LEAGUE PERMITS. Bunton Granted Permission to Play. FOOTSCRAY LOSE SERVICES OF DAYMAN (S.A.) - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 16 Apr 1931

Keen interest was displayed in proceedings at the permit and umpire committee of the Victorian League lust evening, when tho names of several players of note ...

trove.nla.gov.au

TRANSFER OF J. A. FRANCIS THE REASON -

Many transfers were sought by players who appeared before the permit committee of the Victorian Football League last night. In the case of J. A. Francis, who ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Attached are the team lists for first week of finals in 1928 from the match program, Collingwood including #11 W Fitzgerald

State Library Victoria - Viewer

State Library Victoria

handle.slv.vic.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

I think W T (William Thomas) is the father and I suspect that Len was born out of wedlock. Ancestry trees list a daughter being born in 1931, the year before the marriage.

Bill Fitzgerald was with Sandringham for about three years before returning to Collingwood in 1934

FOOTBALL. - LEAGUE PERMITS. Bunton Granted Permission to Play. FOOTSCRAY LOSE SERVICES OF DAYMAN (S.A.) - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 16 Apr 1931

Keen interest was displayed in proceedings at the permit and umpire committee of the Victorian League lust evening, when tho names of several players of note ...

trove.nla.gov.au

TRANSFER OF J. A. FRANCIS THE REASON -

Many transfers were sought by players who appeared before the permit committee of the Victorian Football League last night. In the case of J. A. Francis, who ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Attached are the team lists for first week of finals in 1928 from the match program, Collingwood including #11 W Fitzgerald

State Library Victoria - Viewer

State Library Victoria

handle.slv.vic.gov.au

Thanks a lot for looking into that. We've got Bill playing a lot of games over a lot of years (despite the fact he went away for a while):

If that story (from 1945) in the paper is correct (and we're assuming it is!), then Len's old man only played a few games at the most.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks a lot for looking into that. We've got Bill playing a lot of games over a lot of years (despite the fact he went away for a while):
View attachment 1885093
If that story (from 1945) in the paper is correct (and we're assuming it is!), then Len's old man only played a few games at the most.

Just a quick off the cuff count had me thinking 20-30

There were a lot of clicks trying to find a first name

 

[35Daicos]

Just a quick off the cuff count had me thinking 20-30

There were a lot of clicks trying to find a first name

Yep, with Len he's meant to have been the eldest of three children (according to his bio on Collingwood Forever), so I'll have a look at any Fitzgerald marriages from a year or two before 1929, hoping there's the name of someone who's still living there (Collingwood) around 1945!

 

[35Daicos]

blueycarlton

Since the name of Tom Fitzgerald has come up, I may as well bring this up now!! I sent you a private message (on BF) regarding your 1927 GF reserves winning team quite a while back, but for some reason you don't seem to have seen it:

I've no idea what's going on with that (I think I've sent you another one or two previously, and you don't seem to have seen them either), but I do think I have provided (in that message) the two unknown first names from your 1927 team!!

 

[the croucher]

Thank you very much indeed for doing that. This probably is a bit off topic here, so I appreciate the interest in helping out! I've discussed this issue in the past with the Collingwood (club - history) folks, and I'd say it's because of that article we're so keen to work out who the father was. We have two Fitzgerald's who played seconds for us around 1930 or so: Bill and Tom. I'm almost certain Bill is William Thomas, and that he got married in 1932, ruling him out as Len's father. The other chap is some sort of a chance (he played at Carlton, Coburg, and all over the place), but I don't think I was ever that keen on him either. Our records (especially through the 1920s) aren't complete, and there's every chance another Fitzgerald played for our Reserves team then.

Len Fitzgerald's marriage certificate shows father listed as Edward Crispin Fitzgerald, mother Eileen Anne Johnson -
Vic BDMs have a marriage in 1929 for that couple.

Len's address in 1949 was 6 Bendigo Street.

 

[35Daicos]

Len Fitzgerald's marriage certificate shows father listed as Edward Crispin Fitzgerald, mother Eileen Anne Johnson -
Vic BDMs have a marriage in 1929 for that couple.

Len's address in 1949 was 6 Bendigo Street.

Wow!! WTF did you get that from?! But thank you, thank you very much indeed!! I'm guessing you paid for it? No matter what, thanks mate!!

 

[GreyCrow]

Collingwood through and through

A Football Victory. - SUNDAY NIGHT JOLLIFICATION. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 5 Sep 1922

had been having a jollification to celebrate
the victory of the Collingwood' football
team over Fitzroy.

(30),
and Edward Fitzgerald (21) were charged
with having behaved in an offensive manner,

Age is right

 

[RedmanWasHere]

A jollification is a new one.

It's not underlined in red which tells me it's it's been around a long time.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Len Fitzgerald's marriage certificate shows father listed as Edward Crispin Fitzgerald, mother Eileen Anne Johnson -
Vic BDMs have a marriage in 1929 for that couple.

Len's address in 1949 was 6 Bendigo Street.

Apologies for being tangential but Edward's parents are listed as:

James Edward Fitzgerald.
Maud Elizabeth Banfield.

 

[the croucher]

Wow!! WTF did you get that from?! But thank you, thank you very much indeed!! I'm guessing you paid for it? No matter what, thanks mate!!

Yep, paid for the certificate to be downloaded. This great crew of like-minded researchers and "footy people" have helped each other so often over the years and it was eating into my sleep time that answer couldn't be found

Glad to have found what you and the club need. As a longtime family history and tree builder, I know how grateful I am that Victorian certificates have so much info on them. Tassie ones are among the earliest, but frustratingly short of detail at times !

 

[35Daicos]

There are 9 trees on Ancestry for him:

No children are named in the trees. It seems he only moved to Bendigo Street some time in the 1940s, but he would have stayed there for the rest of his days (his wife and son were listed at that address in 1977):

Keith Edward is likely to be another of his children.

We're very pleased to finally have a name for Len's father! Thanks again to everyone for helping out, and to the croucher in particular. We really do have a wonderful little community here!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

View attachment 1884450
Any comments (from anyone) would be most welcome, and please jump in and look in case there's more to be found on this one!!

Very confident this is the right guy - can't find an exact DOB but BillionGraves have a photo of his grave - DOD was 11 July 1970 (most Melbourne General Cemetery records on Find a Grave use interment dates rather than death dates)

 

[35Daicos]

Very confident this is the right guy - can't find an exact DOB but BillionGraves have a photo of his grave - DOD was 11 July 1970 (most Melbourne General Cemetery records on Find a Grave use interment dates rather than death dates)

Excellent! Thanks a lot for that. I'm keen to hear what the AFL chaps make of this one!!

 

[35Daicos]

I wonder if the AFL could also see to the fact that Hec Davidson is missing two Gardiner Medals from which he should have been awarded retrospectively; he lost both on countback in 1932 and 1933 yet was never recognised when the AFL awarded retrospective medals in 1992. He was also runner-up in 1931 and 1934 – a handy player!

There are a couple of other cases of missing retrospective medals in there too; it would be a shame for the families not to receive recognition – even if it is just private acknowledgement by the league.

AFL Reserves - Gardiner Medal

A history of the Gardiner Medal, awarded to the best & fairest in the AFL Reserves (includes the Murie Cup and Gordon-Dobson Medal)

www.hardballget.net

AFL Reserves - Gardiner Medal

A history of the Gardiner Medal, awarded to the best & fairest in the AFL Reserves (includes the Murie Cup and Gordon-Dobson Medal)

www.hardballget.net

Hopefully this might help, but maybe it's a bit confusing when looking at The Herald article?:

Looks like this should be Flanigan: Wikiwand - Bob Flanigan (footballer):

He played just 3 senior games in 1945.

I imagine Smith must have taken second spot (from Flanigan) after a countback.
Or maybe not!:

=============================================================================

I'm almost certain this will be J. Morris.







Jack Morris it is!:

Jack Morris was still at South in 1940. This chap was a pennant/district cricketer, and it's very likely to be the same person:

==========================================================
This puts four players in equal third position (1938), and that doesn't match what you have:


That player is likely to be Haydn Sharp, a runner-up in 1939, who was at the club in 1938:

 

[rbartlett]

^ I think this really should settle the issue!:
View attachment 1884631
So the Brunswick/Victoria Markets player was the one who played senior football for North Melbourne in 1930. Morrie/Morry Davidson is our man! I just presume that he was Maurice, and I do think the one I've picked out (1904-1970 chap) should be the best candidate, but I think there were at least another couple of Maurice Davidson's around, and that bit I can't be positive about!

35Daicos
I missed these posts cause I normally just scan for the summary post at the end

So, I am submitting back to Stephen R that:
Harold Davidson North 1930 Harold Davidson (footballer) - Wikipedia
should now be Maurice Davidson b: 1904 Kew, d: 14 July 1970