Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Summary:
Collingwood behind scorers from Rd 11 1975, which are missing from AFLTables, and Aust. Football etc are below.

19 behinds in total, breakdown is:
McKenna 2, Dunne 1, Atkinson 2, Grose 4, Anderson 3, R.Shaw 3, Kink 3, Rushed 1.
(courtesy of Phil taranto's handwritten footy record)

Oliver G *Paul*


Summary Melbourne behind scorers Rd 11 1975 (we are missing 2)
Baker 1, Keenan 1, Ditterich 3, Wells 2, Lyons 1, Keays 1, missing 2:

Oliver G *Paul*

 

[Oliver G]

Summary:
Collingwood behind scorers from Rd 11 1975, which are missing from AFLTables, and Aust. Football etc are below.

19 behinds in total, breakdown is:
McKenna 2, Dunne 1, Atkinson 2, Grose 4, Anderson 3, R.Shaw 3, Kink 3, Rushed 1.
(courtesy of Phil taranto's handwritten footy record)

Oliver G *Paul*


Summary Melbourne behind scorers Rd 11 1975 (we are missing 2)
Baker 1, Keenan 1, Ditterich 3, Wells 2, Lyons 1, Keays 1, missing 2:

Oliver G *Paul*

Thanks Rhett, Collingwood has been updated on AF. Slight issue with the Melbourne ones though as Keenen didn't play in R11, but it looks as though he was a late out...

 

[rbartlett]

Thanks Rhett, Collingwood has been updated on AF. Slight issue with the Melbourne ones though as Keenen didn't play in R11, but it looks as though he was a late out...

View attachment 1998936

Thanks Oliver.
So we will change Melbourne to 3 missing, and remove the behind for Keenan.

 

[Supermercado]

Melbourne's Darcy Walsh (1942-1944) is usually shown as born 21/08/1918, but his War Record says 21/08/1917.

NZ BDM also says 1917 so I'm going with this on Demonwiki unless there's conflicting evidence!

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Alex Cuthbertson (born 10 Jun 1931) played a single game for St Kilda in 1956 - full name was Henry Alexander Cuthbertson
There are several trees on Ancestry for him, with photos of him playing for Raglan, Beaufort and Golden Point.
In online footy records there is no date of death recorded.
Ancestry trees show he died on 27 Nov 2008 - confirmed date via probate records and Ryerson Index

Summary: Add date of death for Alex Cuthbertson as 27 Nov 2008
Oliver G

 

[35Daicos]

Melbourne's Darcy Walsh (1942-1944) is usually shown as born 21/08/1918, but his War Record says 21/08/1917.

NZ BDM also says 1917 so I'm going with this on Demonwiki unless there's conflicting evidence!

View attachment 1998986

Looks clear-cut to me!:

This^ adds up to a 1917 birth as well, and anything I've seen on Ancestry has him being born that year. This is from an Ancestry tree:

As long as this is the correct DOB for his sibling, an August 1918 one for your man wouldn't be likely!:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another death - Vin Williams (93 games for Fitzroy) died way back in 1974.

Full name was Vincent James Williams and Ancestry family trees show date of death as 24 July 1974.
One tree (apparently from his daughter) includes photos of him playing for Fitzroy.
Vic BDM shows:


Can't see anything to confirm exact death date but SMCT shows burial at Springvale Botanical Cemetery on 29 Jul 1974 so have no reason to doubt 24 July date.

Summary: Add date of death for Vin Williams as 24 July 1974
Oliver G

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another death from last year we seem to have missed - Jeff Harris (Haw) died at Tocumwal on 17 Feb 2023 as per death notice in Herald Sun. Full name according to electoral rolls was Jeffrey James Harris.
note: family notice has 30 Aug 1931 rather than 31 Aug 1931 as date of birth

Summary: Add date of death for Jeff Harris as 17 Feb 2023
Oliver G

 

[35Daicos]

My "Collingwood Archives colleague" brought this one to the club's attention recently - it refers to the 1909 Rd. 1 Collingwood vs Fitzroy game: https://australianfootball.com/game/view/918 || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/040619090501.html

This^ refers to the Rd. 2 game, and has Sadler returning to the team, with Baxter going out.

Baxter is mentioned in match reports^>:

Looks clear-cut to me - Baxter played, Sadler didn't.
=====================================================================================================
While looking at this game, I noticed that there appears to be a discrepancy with the Fitzroy side as well - Norm Richardson seems to have played, with Sheehan not playing:




-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ned Richardson is named in the (official) lineup for Fitzroy's Rd. 2 game, as is Sheehan: https://australianfootball.com/game/view/922 || https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/060919090508.html

Yet this suggests Richardson didn't play that game (along with Lambert and Naismith he [or more likely Norm Richardson] must have come out of the team that played the week before):

They should mean Newling instead of Dowling in the Geelong team.


Taylor is named in the official side for Rd. 1 (for Fitzroy), but not in the Rd. 2 team. He's named in the above lineup, and there's nothing to suggest he went out of the side.

Rather helpfully, there's team photos of the Fitzroy and Geelong teams that played on that day (Rd. 2)!: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/222253770

It names Taylor, but not Richardson. C. Taylor in a 1908 Fitzroy team photo: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/198110937

C. Taylor in the team photo (taken Rd. 2 1909):

There's really no doubt he played that day, and Ned / Norm Richardson didn't.

This has Sheehan coming into the side for Rd. 2 (so not playing Rd. 1, as the records have it):

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Summary:- 1909 Rd. 1 Collingwood vs. Fitzroy
Collingwood: Jim Sadler out of the team, to be replaced by Tom Baxter.
Fitzroy: Percy Sheehan out of the team, replaced by Norm Richardson.

1909 Rd. 2 Fitzroy vs. Geelong
Fitzroy: Ned Richardson out of the (official) team, replaced by Charlie Taylor.

 

[35Daicos]

With regards to the previous post, if it's correct that Norm Richardson was recruited from South Yarra, then it's highly likely he played the Rd. 1 game, not Ned Richardson!: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norm_Richardson_(footballer)

Ned is meant to have been from Beverley, and was at Fitzroy in 1908:


I've now changed my previous post to have Norm (not Ned) Richardson playing the Rd. 1 1909 game, as that now appears to be correct.

Norm Richardson is meant to have played the 1909 Rd. 5 game (his one and only game according to the records), but was it him or the other guy?!: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1909/050619090529.html
It's probably Norm.

This has Ned Richardson being from Port Melbourne when he debuted for Fitzroy in 1908:


He must have ended up at Beverley some time later:

 

[rbartlett]

This may not help you query - but I do know what Ned Richardson looks like, as he also played for Richmond. He has big ears (random comment I know, but he's pretty recognisable in images I've seen)

 

[35Daicos]

This may not help you query - but I do know what Ned Richardson looks like, as he also played for Richmond. He has big ears (random comment I know, but he's pretty recognisable in images I've seen)

Thanks for that. I am rather confident with what I have there, but if anyone wants to have a look themselves please go right ahead! There is the photo of the Rd. 2 Fitzroy lineup (link up the page a bit), so I'm hoping and assuming that he's nowhere to be seen in it!

I knew about his Richmond connection, as he's been discussed on here previously, but I'm wondering if it's known that his mother was a Carkeek, and that William "Barlow" Carkeek (of football and cricket fame) was her brother (and Ned's uncle)?


This is Ned:

His gravestone says he died on the 20th, but it's in the paper on the 19th!!:


Football records have the 19th, and seem to have it right!

 

[stemline]

1987 Rnd 22 Geel v Haw - GOAL correction (+ some numbers)

All online stats sites have Russell Morris kicking 1 goal in this game, and Michael Tuck none.

Per below video, Tuck kicks 1 goal, Morris does not.

All media of the day, like The Age, had it correct -



I also noticed that stats sites AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com have Garry Hocking wearing 51 and Martin Christensen in 47. Per below video, they wore 32 and 15 respectively throughout this game.



Earlier in this thread in a 1984 game I took a goal off Tucky, so this kinda feels like bringing balance back to the universe.

Summary -

1987 Rnd 22 Geel v Haw - Michael Tuck plus 1 goal, Russell Morris minus 1 goal.
(& Garry Hocking wore guernsey number 32 and Martin Christensen number 15).

 

[35Daicos]

1987 Rnd 22 Geel v Haw - GOAL correction (+ some numbers)

All online stats sites have Russell Morris kicking 1 goal in this game, and Michael Tuck none.

Per below video, Tuck kicks 1 goal, Morris does not.

All media of the day, like The Age, had it correct -

View attachment 2004586

I also noticed that stats sites AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com have Garry Hocking wearing 51 and Martin Christensen in 47. Per below video, they wore 32 and 15 respectively throughout this game.



Regarding the Michael Tuck goal, it appears to be a transcribing error into AFL Tables. Most possibly the AFL already have this correct.

However earlier in this thread in a 1984 game I took a goal off Tucky, so this kinda feels like bringing balance back to the universe.

Summary -

1987 Rnd 22 Geel v Haw - Michael Tuck plus 1 goal, Russell Morris minus 1 goal.
(& Garry Hocking wore guernsey number 32 and Martin Christensen number 15).

This is what the AFL's Historical Statistics site had back when it was operating:



The season goal tallies shown above (36, 17) are the same as what AFL Tables and AustralianFootball.com have for those two in 1987: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/1987.html#10 || https://australianfootball.com/clubs/stats/hawthorn/28/1987/1#playerstats

The Grand Final Football Record has this (no goals were scored by Morris or Tuck in the GF):


This is despite the fact that the Football Record had Tuck scoring a goal (none to Morris) in the Rd. 22 game:

So it seems very likely to me the AFL's records would still have this wrong, and that the mistake was made way back in 1987. This shows his career goal tally as 320 (which matches the AFL Tables figure): https://www.afl.com.au/hall-of-fame/players

 

[stemline]

I also have this - I think it's from the Sunday Press or Sunday Observer - it was actually used to transcribe the stats into Paul's site way back when i was helping him do that - (but we didn't do goals, they were sourced from elsewhere, possibly that AFL archive).

 

[stemline]

Also, 320 career goals matches what I have for Tuck. But I took one off for a game in 1984 Rnd 5 (this post here), and added one back for this game.

Yes, it does look like the AFL need to amend these.

 

[35Daicos]

Also, 320 career goals matches what I have for Tuck. But I took one off for a game in 1984 Rnd 5 (this post here), and added one back for this game.

Yes, and I noticed AF.com has him on 319, so they have made that (1984 game) change.

 

[rbartlett]

Rodgers agrees with this change, but this hasnt been updated on Wiki , AFL Tables, or AustFootball Oliver G

Jim Read, 76 games for St Kilda. Back in 2010 a random user changed his DOB on wikipedia from the AFL approved 26 Dec 1943 to 22 Dec.
He died last year, and the webcast of the funeral service is online (inc photo of him playing for St Kilda at 31:30). The opening photo lists his birthday as 22nd.
Please advise the AFL & Oliver Gigacz & *Paul* to update.
AFLTables
AustralianFootball

View attachment 1082370

 

[rbartlett]

This needs to be updated on his Wiki page please.

Bob Merrick (Fitzroy) is listed as having date of death 15 May 1991.

His grave shows actual date of death was 25 May 1991

Summary: Change date of death for Bob Merrick from 15 May 1991 to 25 May 1991

 

[rbartlett]

SR agrees with this.

Wiki, AustFootball , AFLTables needs to reflect this change please

Wally Mitchell - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

William Alfred Mitchell, son of William Ernest Mitchell and Flora Louisa Watkins
Date of birth 22 April 1912
Place of birth Carlton North, Victoria
Date of death 31 October 1982 (aged 70)
Place of death Heidelberg, Victoria

 

[rbartlett]

Wiki yet to reflect this

Reg Bennett (SM) is listed as having date of death 2 July 1989.

His grave shows actual date of death was 21 July 1989 and this is also confirmed by death notice in The Age

Summary: Change date of death for Reg Bennett from 2 July 1989 to 21 July 1989

 

[rbartlett]

This needs to be updated on Wiki, AFLTables, Aust Football Oliver G

Ray Whelan is credited with one game for Hawthorn in 1945 - however he was playing for Sturt on that day so cannot be the player

Correct identification of the player is
Name: Russell Whelan, son of Thomas Whelan and Mary Maud Dory Blackshaw
Date of birth: 2 December 1914 (note: one of his WWII records has 1 December 1914)
Place of birth: Balwyn, Victoria
Date of death: 21 August 1981 (aged 67)
Place of death: Newcastle, New South Wales (was living in Forster)

Summary: Replace Ray Whelan with Russell Whelan in official records

 

[rbartlett]

His wiki needs to be updated

George Moloney (Claremont/Geelong) - member of Australian Football HoF - has DOD 5 Jan 1983 in all football sources I can see

Cemetery records confirm that actual DOD was 3 Jan 1983

Summary: Change recorded date of death for George Moloney from 5 Jan 1983 to 3 Jan 1983

 

[rbartlett]

Wiki, AFLTables, and Aust Football need to update this. Oliver G

Ray “Bunty” Niven played for Fitzroy & Melbourne and is identified as having DOB 6 March 1910 and DOD 26 November 1992 in all sources I can see.

This date of birth seem to be incorrect.

Niven was the younger brother of Colin (also Fitzroy/Melbourne) and this was mentioned in numerous press articles throughout his playing career.
Their parents were Colin Niven (1870-1938) and Ida Bell Lewis (1875-1947) and Vic BDM records show:
View attachment 1144754

Although not included in Harder Than Football, it appears that Ray served in World War II - shows next of kin as his mother Ida
Listed date of birth on war service record is 25 April 1912, but given BDM record above I believe this should be 25 April 1911.

In 1942, Raymond Gordon Niven married Kathleen Mary Condon and they can be seen together in electoral rolls in Brighton (Niven later played there) and Warburton (Niven was coach of Wesburn in that area in the early 1950s)

There is a death of a Raymond Gordon Niven on 26 Nov 1982 according to cremation record at Springvale, and then both Raymond & Kathleen can be found in the same burial plot at Cheltenham Cemetery - see records for Ray and Kathleen. The date of interment for Ray is 17 Feb 1993.

It seems that Ray Niven died in Nov 1992 but subsequently his ashes were interred at Cheltenham 3 months later – unusual , but given there only appears to have ever been one Raymond Gordon Niven in Victoria it seems the most likely explanation.

Summary: Update date of birth for Ray Niven from 6 March 1910 to 25 April 1911

 

[rbartlett]

Bumping this one from a few years ago.
With the Sun now digitised on Trove- does that perhaps tell us who coached the two teams on Rd 13 1949. Is someone able to check please?

At the very least, Dyer and Albiston would need to be removed as coach on that round as they were playing for Vic in NSW at the time of the match.

The coaching career figures for Jack Dyer (Richmond) and Alec Albiston (Hawthorn) need amending.
Round 13 match 1949 between those two clubs did not have the named people as coach of each respective team.

Both JD and AA were in Sydney playing for Victoria vs NSW !!

[?]ONS ON TOP IN [?] AIR, RUCK - By CYRIL NOTT - Sporting Globe (Melbourne, Vic. : 1922 - 1954) - 16 Jul 1949

trove.nla.gov.au

Poor Rules umpiring helps NSW, but Victoria scores easy victory - The Sun (Sydney, NSW : 1910 - 1954) - 17 Jul 1949

VICTORIA gave a polished exhibition of short-passing, long kicking and safe marking easily to defeat NSW in the Australian Rules code game at the Sydney Cricket Ground yesterday. ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Haven't yet found who were "caretaker coaches."