Resource - List thread - Inaccuracy in official records | Page 34 | BigFooty

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Discussion in 'Footy History' started by Supermercado, Mar 9, 2015.

  1. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    A minor correction on the the face of things perhaps.

    Here is the list of permits for Middleton.

    cf Argus 1 June 1899

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

    John Deas is listed as transferring from South Melbourne to Fitzroy. He is listed as Jack Deas in AFL tables.
     

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  2. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    More serendipity

    The list of permits for Middleton.

    cf Argus 1 June 1899

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974

    Johnny Lyons of Collingwood is credited as coming from Collingwood Juniors. In fact this report suggests he was from Richmond not Collingwood Juniors.

    also another possible slight correction.

    Mick Lynch is credited with playing 14 games in 1898.

    The Argus report has him as JM Lynch and transferring from Collingwood to Richmond.

    This is just one analysis from one set of clearances in 1899.
     
  3. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    To be frank, without casting any doubt on the competence of previous historians, it is quite easy to understand why a few 1890/1900 facts may not be correct. They did not have Trove so relied on club records such as they were and the diligent ones would look through some, usually not all, of the newspapers, only usually main papers like the Argus, Age etc.

    I've done that process myself pre Trove and can say from experience, that while it is better from a perspective process, as you're not looking for one discrete fact, there is a huge potential to miss stuff, if for example it is outside the football section of a newspaper.

    It is for this reason it has taken so long to get Anzac footballing data together because a lot of the data was actually in despatches from the front section, local papers and sectarian papers.

    So it is not a slight on previous historians but merely an acknowledgement by us now, that we have an easier job now in finding the data.
     
  4. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Arthur William Middleton died in hospital, North Sydney, on 17 May 1945, aged 68.
    see Sydney Morning Herald 18 May 1945 [Trove down right at the moment, but the OCR text showed up via Google !]
     
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  5. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    I'll add my two cents worth regarding the Richmond players named in the last several posts by Harry Hook.

    1. We had a Morrison play for Richmond VFA 1895-1896 (for 10 games, 3 goals). I don't have a first initial, but it could be the G Morrison you have listed.
    So it is possible he went to StKilda for 1897, but he would have to had come back to Richmond in order for him to be given a permit to go (back) to StKilda ?

    2. We had a Lyons (no first initial) play for us for 1 game in 1898. Could that be your 'Johnny Lyons'.
    Not to be confused with T Lyons who played for us in 1889, or Horace Lyons (who came from Prahran in 1901) who played for us in 1903. ( I haven't began researching to see if they are all related)

    3. I don't have a Lynch playing for Richmond VFA. So not sure what happened to the JM Lynch Coll- Rich transfer in 1899
     
  6. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    TBH, I haven't checked the Richmond side as I reckoned you would have what data there was on the Richmond side of things.

    It seems that AFL tables and Wikipedia might be out on this, as they often are.

    As for Morrison would seem to be a bit of a yo yo man but that said it would have been easy to also make the assumption that the same man played as well.

    Anyway good to have possibly have helped cleared a few Richmond no first names as well.
     
  7. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Rhett, found this reference in the Age from 9 June 1933 to a Superintendent Power who played for both Fitzroy and Richmond from 1896 to 1900.

    The player involved I believe is the Fitzroy premiership player in 1898 John Power.

    Found no connection in the wikipedia page to his Richmond days.

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article203807277
     
  8. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Found some more clearances from 1900 and they raise some more questions.

    Argus 2 May 1900

    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9539779

    For Rhett Barlett there are a whole heap of initials for St Richmond players transfers to other VFA players.

    Now the specifics

    A Dunn St Kilda to Prahran. There are a pair of Dunnes who played in 1898 but no A Dunn.

    JW Warne St Kilda to Prahran. It's stated that Jim Warne's full name was James Warne. This clearance suggests otherwise. These early St Kilda player's names are a treat.

    HJ Bond St Kilda to Prahran. It's stated that Harry's full name was Harry. This clearance suggests otherwise. What can I say, early St Kilda records.

    G Cowell Carlton to NM. George Cowell's wiki page suggested that he returned to Ballaraat in 1899. This suggests otherwise.

    CH Sweetman Carlton to Essendon Town. The only Sweetman to play for Carlton before was Tom Sweetman. Blueseum suggests that he retired after the Essendon game. This clearance may suggest otherwise.
     
  9. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Thanks for these. I've updated where applicable
     
  10. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202617277 (17 May 1899)

    Permits Granted:-
    S. Lyons, Richmond, to Collingwood Juniors.

    It's probably supposed to say J. Lyons. This has Lyons playing for Collingwood only a few weeks later:-

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202624980 (19 June 1899)

    Collingwood's goals were kicked by Lyons (a new man from the Collingwood Juniors)

    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9524570 (19 June 1899)

    Collingwood had Dowdell away and took in Lyons, a Collingwood junior.
    ============================================
    http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9543217 (2 June 1899)

    Clearances - A. Robson, Richmond to Collingwood Juniors;

    ^ This is probably Arthur "Artie" Robson (Collingwood 1900-01) and seems to be the same scenario as the Lyons story, with a player going from Richmond to Collingwood Juniors and then into the Collingwood (VFL) team.

    http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Artie_Robson.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
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  11. WhiteHartLane23

    WhiteHartLane23 Senior List

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    To summarise “A. Middleton”

    Current records name this player as Arch Middleton (AFL Tables), Archibald Middleton (Wikipedia), Archibald C. Middleton (Encyc of AFL Footballers), Albert Middleton (Australianfootball.com). All of these sources list 27 October 1871 as his date of birth - which is that of Archibald James Middleton (born in Wangaratta) who was serving in the Boer War in 1900.

    Trove research gives:
    1) Middleton played for Windsor before St Kilda and in 1896, a report states “Arthur Middleton, as usual, played a strong game in the ruck” http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165214368
    2) He was on the committee of Prahran Football Club when it was formed in 1899 (http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165218586) but was denied a permit to play for them http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165218900
    3) Later in 1899, A. W. Middleton was granted a permit to transfer from St Kilda to Fitzroy http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9531974
    4) He was later groomsman at Fitzroy team-mate J. H. “Harry” Clarke’s wedding in 1909 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165245154 - again named as Arthur

    He appears to be Arthur William Middleton, second son of Bell Middleton and Jennette Dallimore, born in Geelong in 1876 (BDM Reg 9690). The Middleton family moved to Malvern in 1888 and Arthur married Annie May Edwards in 1907. They moved to Sydney in about 1910. Arthur died in Mosman, NSW on 17 May 1945 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204018759.

    His age in death notice is given as 68 which, if accurate, puts his birthday after May 17 and birth was registered in Q2 so before 30 Jun.
     
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  12. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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    Photo also suggests that Middleton was of a height to be a ruckman in the junior leagues.

    Sigh, if only all players could have been documented this well.
     
  13. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Thanks for this. I can understand connecting the S Lyons to that of J Lyons.
    The Robson clearance is interesting.
    Richmond VFA have a Robson 1896-1897 , then an A H Robson (1902).
    So I wonder if they are the same person. It could be: 1896-1897 (Richmond), 1898-1899 (unknown), 1900-1901 (Coll), 1902 (Rich)
     
  14. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    W McKelson permit from Sth Melb (1903) to Richmond on June 1905. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9895015
    Our Richmond records have a W McKelson playing in 1905 for 1 game.
    AFL Tables / Wiki have him as Ollie McKelson. Vic BDM have a William McKelson born 1881 in Carlton (same birth year as AFL Tables/Wiki)
    So I wonder if his name is actually William. And maybe his middle name is Oliver - hence the 'Ollie'
     
  15. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    William's mother has maiden name Elizabeth Scully with father's name shown as Alexander McKelson.
    There are five other children born to the same mother between 1867 and 1879, the father in each case also has McKelson surname,
    but in those five cases the given name is Oley (or slight variation of that).

    ...and editing a few mins later...

    I can report that upon William's death in 1950 (aged 69) his registration of death
    records his father's name as Oley !
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  16. 35Daicos

    35Daicos Premium Platinum

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    I hate to cloud the issue, but this has A. Robson going from Collingwood to Richmond at the start of 1903!! Are you sure you have him playing in 1902, not 1903?! http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197908673 (30 April 1903)

    The same list of permits has A. Catlin, Collingwood to Richmond; this is likely to be Alf(red) Catlin who played 9 games for Collingwood in 1899.

    Still on that same theme, R. Duncan went from Collingwood to Richmond in 1902. Probably Roland Duncan who played for Collingwood in 1900. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199398622

    In the 2 links above (in this post) T. Watson went from Richmond to Carlton in 1902, and Carlton to Richmond in 1903! Yet some people complain that players move around too much these days!!
    Edit: This is Tom Watson, who played for Carlton in 1902, Melbourne in 1904, Richmond (in the Association) in 1903, and (seemingly) prior to 1902!

    There was plenty of movement between Collingwood and Richmond, that's for sure! Yet another I've spotted (while looking for other stuff - I'm not sure this is something you're actually looking for yourself or not!) who moved from Collingwood to Richmond around that time was P. G. Wilmot in 1903. http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197209806 (19 June 1903)

    Percy Wilmot played his one and only game for Collingwood early in 1903. 'The Encyclopedia' calls him George P. Wilmot.
    http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/P/Percy_Wilmot.html
     
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2017
  17. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Thanks for the other permit info too Daics.
    As for A H Robson, I double checked and we do indeed have him playing 8 Richmond VFA games in 1903, not 1902. (He even played pre season games from 18 April onwards).
    So looks like its same guy. Apologies for the error earlier. Good pickup
     
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  18. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Croucher... are you therefore saying Ollie McKelson should be credited as William McKelson
     
  19. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    For those asking about Richmond VFA players - here is our most up-to-date list we have.
    Of course I'm trying to get first names for all players ( a mighty task), so if anyone ever comes across one they can identify then go for it!
    It's a lot of fun solving these puzzles.
    https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
     
  20. Harry Hook

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    Searle was eventually transferred to Essendon Town. I have his name as W Searle.

    Age 21 May 1900
    http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article190053020
     
  21. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Two weeks earlier he appears to be listed as H Serle.
    Our records have Herbert Searle playing from July onwards for us in 1899. Not sure if W is a typo. But at the moment I'm going to stick with Herbert Searle as thats what our records had over the last few years of research
     
  22. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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  23. rbartlett

    rbartlett All Australian

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    Thanks , as always, Harry.
    Every little bit helps. Initials, the team player goes from and to. Eventually I will get first names
     
  24. Harry Hook

    Harry Hook Team Captain

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  25. the croucher

    the croucher All Australian

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    Yes, Rhett. "Ollie" appears to be William's nickname derived from his Norwegian-born father
    [who signed his naturalisation certificate as Oley, with address being 6 Eureka St, Richmond]

    The 1903 electoral roll for Richmond North sub-district in electorate of Yarra shows a handful of McKelson names
    (including William, and Oley) all residing at 6 Eureka Street.
     
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