Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[rbartlett]

Yes, Rhett. "Ollie" appears to be William's nickname derived from his Norwegian-born father
[who signed his naturalisation certificate as Oley, with address being 6 Eureka St, Richmond]

The 1903 electoral roll for Richmond North sub-district in electorate of Yarra shows a handful of McKelson names
(including William, and Oley) all residing at 6 Eureka Street.

I don't have an Encyclopaedia of AFL Footballers on me. If anyone has the book, what does it list his name in the book?

 

[35Daicos]

I don't have an Encyclopaedia of AFL Footballers on me. If anyone has the book, what does it list his name in the book?

Just Oliver McKelson. Ex-Studley.

I found a couple of articles in the papers from early 1903 (when he just joined South) where they might have been calling him McKensall.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165173357
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/144682601 (page 3)

 

[Harry Hook]

Rhett

More permits

Harry Windley

23 May 1894
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197473412

Also AFLtables has Johnny Cormick playing 5 games including 1 game in 1902. His name was J Cormack.

His permit in April 1903 to Sth Melbourne follows

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9816138

Now the interesting part. AFL tables has him playing 1 game in 1902. Given he was cleared in 1903 , is that 1902 game attribution correct.

 

[Harry Hook]

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202617277 (17 May 1899)

Permits Granted:-
S. Lyons, Richmond, to Collingwood Juniors.

It's probably supposed to say J. Lyons. This has Lyons playing for Collingwood only a few weeks later:-

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/202624980 (19 June 1899)

Collingwood's goals were kicked by Lyons (a new man from the Collingwood Juniors)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9524570 (19 June 1899)

Collingwood had Dowdell away and took in Lyons, a Collingwood junior.
============================================
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9543217 (2 June 1899)

Clearances - A. Robson, Richmond to Collingwood Juniors;

^ This is probably Arthur "Artie" Robson (Collingwood 1900-01) and seems to be the same scenario as the Lyons story, with a player going from Richmond to Collingwood Juniors and then into the Collingwood (VFL) team.

http://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/A/Artie_Robson.html

J Lyons ends up in WA

24 April 1902 clearance

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9637289

Another possible correction from the same set of clearances C McCormack is said to have been cleared from Essendon to Colingwood but all references on his wiki page etc have him as being from Northcote Juniors.

There is also in the same report a reference to A Robson of Collingwood having his clearance to South Melbourne refused.

 

[Harry Hook]

Rhett have one you might be interested in.

You have a Lewis (no initial) who plays for Richmond from 1895 to 1899 in 30 games.

Here is a permit for A Lewis Carlton to Richmond

4 May 1901

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10549032

If you go to Blueseum, it describes a Bill Lewis who played 15 games in 1900 and then disappears.In fact Blueseum ask for help in locating him.Bill Lewis apparently was recruited from Richmond City ( according to Blueseum).

A lot of Richmond blokes leave Richmond and then return, is your Lewis possibly Bill Lewis and if not, who is A Lewis.

Also Rhett from your list, the player J Peternoster from the above extract appears, from the clearance, to be Jim Paternoster who later plays for Fitzroy.

From the same set of clearances, J Loriot of Richmond would also then appear to be Jim Loriot of Carlton who played 4 games for them in 1901.

 

[Harry Hook]

I have a more speculative Richmond one.

Permit 26 April 1900

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9057522

Notice the reference to A J Wilson Richmond to St Kilda.

Gillie wilson plays 1 game for the Saints in 1900 and 1897, which coincidentally are two years T Wilson does not play Richmond and T Wilson returns to Richmond in 1902.

Coincidentially, the full details of Gillie Wilson do not appear on line.

 

[the croucher]

<snip>
Also AFLtables has Johnny Cormick playing 5 games including 1 game in 1902. His name was J Cormack.

His permit in April 1903 to Sth Melbourne follows

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9816138

Now the interesting part. AFL tables has him playing 1 game in 1902. Given he was cleared in 1903 , is that 1902 game attribution correct.

Yes, does make one wonder about that 1902 game.

One of the local papers The Record covers the South Melbourne area and in a report on the 1902 match versus Geelong includes reference to Cormack "being from the Blenheim."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165172054

And this report in The Argus comments about him as one "whom Fitzroy waited for but failed to get."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9089161

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

For those asking about Richmond VFA players - here is our most up-to-date list we have.
Of course I'm trying to get first names for all players ( a mighty task), so if anyone ever comes across one they can identify then go for it!
It's a lot of fun solving these puzzles.
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

Rhett - I've recently been looking at 1901 VFA lineups and suspect "Watkins" named in your Tigerland Archive list is really just a misprint and the single game should be credited to David Watson.

Game by game records (based off line ups printed in Herald) with positions listed look like:


The only place I can see Watkins mentioned is the line up in the Herald report (link) but he is not in the squad named the day before or mentioned in any other report that I have checked (Age, Argus, Australasian, Sportsman, Weekly Times) Most of the time when regular players like Watson aren't playing it is referred to somewhere (e.g. omission of Tom Watson the week before is mentioned in a couple of reports).

The fact he was named at CHB also adds to the suspicion - misprints are pretty common in the Herald line ups in my experience...

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

I have a more speculative Richmond one.

Permit 26 April 1900
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9057522
Notice the reference to A J Wilson Richmond to St Kilda.

Gillie wilson plays 1 game for the Saints in 1900 and 1897, which coincidentally are two years T Wilson does not play Richmond and T Wilson returns to Richmond in 1902.

Coincidentially, the full details of Gillie Wilson do not appear on line.

Gillie Wilson was the St Kilda Football Club secretary and both VFL matches he played were when they were short of players. (e.g. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article16524212) He had played regularly from 1887 to 1894 but then focused on cricket where he played for Victoria before moving to NZ (see wikipedia entry)

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett - I've recently been looking at 1901 VFA lineups and suspect "Watkins" named in your Tigerland Archive list is really just a misprint and the single game should be credited to David Watson.

Nice spreadsheet screenshot btw.
And having looked at the 1901 RFC Annual Report that lists all the players, Watkins isnt there either.
The fact he appears and disappears in one game could indicate he is a misprint.
Our game by game VFA spreadsheet also has him just for that one game.
So you are saying DAVE Watson is him. Not TOM Watson who was more of a defence player?

 

[rbartlett]

In 1902, according to our game by game VFA stats - Richmond had a player called Wilson, for 1 game - Aug 2 vs Nth Melb.
Never played before or since. We have identified 18 players for that game. But I wonder if he is a typo as well. Its peculiar he just appears and disappears. (He's not listed in 1902 Annual Report players list either).

Secondly, in 1886 we had a SALMON listed as playing in July 10th and Aug 14th matches.
Ive always felt that is a typo and it is Alexander SALTON , who we know played from 1887 onwards for Richmond.

Thoughts are welcomed (sorry for the continuous Richmond items. Hope it isnt upsetting anyone)

 

[rbartlett]

I've been doing a bit of research on the 'Around-The-Grounds' page in the Football Record - you know when you used to check progressive scores off the scoreboard using the lettering system in the Record (remember: A: Collingwood G: North Melbourne ).
From my research, this stopped being printed at the end of the 2003 season.
If anyone finds a reference LATER than 2003, can you please tell me. Cheers Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

J Lyons ends up in WA

24 April 1902 clearance

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article9637289

Another possible correction from the same set of clearances C McCormack is said to have been cleared from Essendon to Colingwood but all references on his wiki page etc have him as being from Northcote Juniors.

There is also in the same report a reference to A Robson of Collingwood having his clearance to South Melbourne refused.

This report from The Argus does list among the Collingwood recruits "McCormack (Northcote)". He may have had an Essendon connection at some stage and needed a clearance from them, or maybe the paper just got it wrong.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9080456

Two years for two premierships at Collingwood for Con McCormack then he headed off to WA!

Edit: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139758179

Also, from The Australasian "McCormack, (a stunning junior from Northcote),"

 

[35Daicos]

I've been doing a bit of research on the 'Around-The-Grounds' page in the Football Record - you know when you used to check progressive scores off the scoreboard using the lettering system in the Record (remember: A: Collingwood G: North Melbourne ).
From my research, this stopped being printed at the end of the 2003 season.
If anyone finds a reference LATER than 2003, can you please tell me. Cheers Rhett

If this is all you mean (see attachment), the 2005 Rd. 21 Sydney vs. Kangaroos Record has it (page 51). That seems to be the last one. There's plenty of others from 2005 in the SLV online collection that have the same thing.

http://cedric.slv.vic.gov.au/R/U63M...-jump-page&set_entry=000420&result_format=002

There's plenty of pages in the Record in later years that just have photos on a page called Around-The-Grounds.

 

[rbartlett]

If this is all you mean (see attachment), the 2005 Rd. 21 Sydney vs. Kangaroos Record has it (page 51). That seems to be the last one. There's plenty of others from 2005 in the SLV online collection that have the same thing.

http://cedric.slv.vic.gov.au/R/U63M...-jump-page&set_entry=000420&result_format=002

There's plenty of pages in the Record in later years that just have photos on a page called Around-The-Grounds.

Yes I'm referring to the actual table with the teams and corresponding letters of the alphabet.
So 2005 seems to be the last year. Thanks Daics. I'm surprised it lasted that long considering games had not started on time, or on the same day for many years.

 

[rbartlett]

Records currently show Rd 2 1921 Gee vs Ess start time is 2:45pm
However , it should be changed to 3:15pm

Football Record Rd 2 1921 pg 23:
Owing to the boat race at Geelong to-day, the match between Geelong and Essendon will not commence until 3:15pm

The Argus 16 May 1921 pg 3
After the public schools' boat race on the Barwon River, a big crowd went to the Geelong oval to witness the match between Essendon and Geelong. The start was delayed til 3:15 o'clock

I've sent email to Col H/ Stephen R / Paul AFL Tables.
(I've also asked Col to check regarding earlier post of Ollie McKelson)

 

[Harry Hook]

In 1902, according to our game by game VFA stats - Richmond had a player called Wilson, for 1 game - Aug 2 vs Nth Melb.
Never played before or since. We have identified 18 players for that game. But I wonder if he is a typo as well. Its peculiar he just appears and disappears. (He's not listed in 1902 Annual Report players list either).

Secondly, in 1886 we had a SALMON listed as playing in July 10th and Aug 14th matches.
Ive always felt that is a typo and it is Alexander SALTON , who we know played from 1887 onwards for Richmond.

Thoughts are welcomed (sorry for the continuous Richmond items. Hope it isnt upsetting anyone)

It's actually quite helpful to me to have a starting point for the research as it usually leads to other things.

Can you publish an updated list from time to time so that I don't go over old ground.

 

[rbartlett]

It's actually quite helpful to me to have a starting point for the research as it usually leads to other things.

Can you publish an updated list from time to time so that I don't go over old ground.

Well each Richmond change/update sourced from the researchers here or elsewhere, I add to the existing VFA page that same day. https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
So you can keep referring to that page to see what data is missing. Does that help ?

 

[Harry Hook]

Well each Richmond change/update sourced from the researchers here or elsewhere, I add to the existing VFA page that same day. https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players
So you can keep referring to that page to see what data is missing. Does that help ?

I've assumed that you've read this article from the Australasian 4 June 1938 which gives great details of the VFA days.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144371779

I say presumed but it is never safe to assume. You have John Stewart's nickname as Bosco but it appears he was known as Jack.

 

[Harry Hook]

Yes, does make one wonder about that 1902 game.

One of the local papers The Record covers the South Melbourne area and in a report on the 1902 match versus Geelong includes reference to Cormack "being from the Blenheim."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165172054

And this report in The Argus comments about him as one "whom Fitzroy waited for but failed to get."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9089161

Might have something.

Cormack did play for Blenheim

Ballarat Star

23 June 1902
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211459345

It was a representative team.

NB note Jim Loriot is mentioned for Collingwood Juniors

Note also the reference to J Archer of Richmond who is not referred to in Rhett's list.

May also pay to check the rest of these juniors.

In May 1902 Cormack goes from West Melbourne to Blenheim

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199401283

which is strange as it seems that he was transferred from West Melbourne in 1903.

 

[rbartlett]

I've assumed that you've read this article from the Australasian 4 June 1938 which gives great details of the VFA days.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article144371779

I say presumed but it is never safe to assume. You have John Stewart's nickname as Bosco but it appears he was known as Jack.

Seen that article, but thank you.
Yeah , he's called Bosco in many Richmond minute books/annual reports. But every little bit helps as I try to get birth dates/death dates/fullnames/ clubs of each players

 

[rbartlett]

Might have something.

C
Note also the reference to J Archer of Richmond who is not referred to in Rhett's list.

May also pay to check the rest of these juniors.

On April 2 1902 Richmond City and West Richmond amalgamated to become Richmond Juniors. Richmond offered the new club free use of its ground and facilities.
I suspect J Archer and W Pettit are from the Richmond Juniors and as such weren't from our VFA
(But it has raised a side question ... is J Archer - John Harry 'Jack' Archer , Richmond's famous Treasurer and President. - born 1881 , that would make him around 21. Bio . Anyhow something for me to investigate in the interim)

 

[35Daicos]

And this report in The Argus comments about him as one "whom Fitzroy waited for but failed to get."
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/9089161

In the same article it says (of the Carlton vs. Essendon game): "Watson was the only Carlton absentee on Saturday, and it was not until after 8 o'clock that the executive found he would be absent."

Tom Watson is named in the official lineup for Carlton, but it seems certain he shouldn't be. I can't find the name of his (apparent) replacement at this stage. http://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1902/030519020719.html

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/199396622 (The Age, 21 July 1902)
The absentees were ~~~ from Essendon, and Watson from Carlton.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/139128407/11337298 (The Australasian, 26 July 1902)
There's no mention of Watson being absent but there is the same comment about Cormack/Cormick in the South Melbourne match report on the previous page: "Cormick, a junior recruit, for whom Fitzroy kept a place open till the last moment, stripped for South Melbourne"

http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/196580875/21380718 (Leader, 26 July 1902)
"which was simply due to the other side—from which, by the way, Watson was absent—playing a much better game."

It looks like Watson was playing for Carlton the next week but none of the papers I've looked at say anything about ins and outs. No help from The Herald either, it cuts out one week before this game. Which still makes it a bit difficult!

 

[35Daicos]

Might have something.

Cormack did play for Blenheim

Ballarat Star

23 June 1902
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211459345

It was a representative team.

NB note Jim Loriot is mentioned for Collingwood Juniors

Note also the reference to J Archer of Richmond who is not referred to in Rhett's list.

May also pay to check the rest of these juniors.

In May 1902 Cormack goes from West Melbourne to Blenheim

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article199401283

which is strange as it seems that he was transferred from West Melbourne in 1903.

I did see a J Cormack on the committee at Blenheim in 1901 in one paper.

 

[Harry Hook]

An article from the Age of 16 September 1933 detailing very early Richmond players and initials of richmond players.

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article205121065

Another article from the Age of 26 August 1933

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article204379554

Which gives the following details

S Kelso
A Davis

and a few others not on the list

There is also a photo of early punt road which the September article names the players.

Not sure if you've seen these articles.