The next step might be for someone from this board to make contact with Stephen Rodgers, and see if the AFL have permit records for him OR what information they have used in the past to determine he was a StKilda player.
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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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The next step might be for someone from this board to make contact with Stephen Rodgers, and see if the AFL have permit records for him OR what information they have used in the past to determine he was a StKilda player.
Harry Hook
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I can now answer why there is no record of A Richardson continuing on at Richmond, and with football at all.
Age article 23 May 1905 ( just prior to preseason)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article192236094
Richardson, then of Sale, was appointed band master of the Citizens Brass Band ( for which there were 14 applications).
As he took that position, his career as a footballer finished.
This report of the Ballarat Star of 31 October 1902 lists him as plying the flugel horn for the Code brothers band
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article211471831
What is fascinating is that in this report of the same newspaper for 8 October 1900 [and after the 3 1900 games for St Kilda Richardson is supposed to have played] ( for virtually the same competition) there is a listing of the Hopetoun band that does not include Richardson but includes the Code brothers.
This report is very detailed.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article206978026
And the reference for the same newspaper of 22 October 1901 ( and after Richardson's 1901 games) for presumably the same competition (although I shouldn't presume) for Code's Band follows
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207511096
Notice there is no reference to Richardson.
As was this reference to the same competition in the same newspaper on 25 October 1901.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article207511467
Sorry to go into this degree of minutiae about brass bands ( and although I do like the music of John Philip Souza), but P Archie Richardson liked his music so much he gave up his footy career after 3 premierships to be a band leader.
And don't take my word for this.
This article from the referee on 5 April 1934 confirms how important music was to him and that he was in Code's band and went to the US in 1897 to play in brass bands.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article136115202
In many ways, football was secondary to his interest in music and if he wasn't in Code's band in 1901 but was in Code's band in 1902, that is important.
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Well done for tackling so much detailed research. However, just a note of caution - unfortunately, the 1934 article with the USA travel ref appears to contain an error. I cannot find any evidence that Richardson travelled to America in 1897 - it was 1907. See this page and check about third paragraph down column 3: http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/6182425
The Ancestry website includes New York passenger lists 1820-1957. Henry A Richardson, aged about 27 is listed as arriving on 9 March 1907 on the Baltic from Liverpool in England, birthplace Sale Victoria. For those who can access that site:
http://search.ancestry.com.au/cgi-b...1014392&recoff=10&dbid=7488&indiv=1&ml_rpos=2
I cannot find any reference in those New York lists to Richardson arriving in 1897. Nor can I see any ref to him in Australian passenger lists on Ancestry as returning in 1897/1898.
Date of death for cyclist George Ross Morgan (an ANZAC) is 8 July 1948
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/a...|l-state=Victoria|||l-category=Family+Notices
page 24 of his service record online also shows handwritten in red 8/7/48 as date of death
...different to other VFL/AFL records which show it as 28 June 1947
http://australianfootball.com/players/player/george+morgan/1239
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Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
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Thanks for that. Without having access to Ancestry sometimes my hands were tied and the Victorian Shipping records I looked through weren't helpful. Neither it seems is the reference to West beach football club and we still don't know with any certainty which Richardson played for St Kilda.
You have given us such an interesting set of leads to look at and follow up on, but I understand that not all contributors have access to some sites.
What I have noticed in the case of the Richardson research relates to the newspaper collections on the Trove website. A few years ago numerous country and regional papers had the 1914-1918 years loaded on and that was a very sensible decision given at the time the approaching centenary of World War One and other events of that era. The Maryborough and Dunolly Advertiser was published between 1854 and 1929, but the war years are the only ones on Trove so far.
Gibbsy
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how much do you pay for Ancestry, the croucher? If you don't mind me asking. Is it just used for footy research? Do you find it worth it?
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
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- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
Just another layer of caution.
I'm sure Richardson left for the US in 1907 but that does not preclude the possibility he may have left in 1897 and returned later.
You will see that in the 1934 Article it refers to various bands including the Conway, Pryor and Liberati band.
While not being an expert in brass bands, although I expect I may be at the end of this, the Liberati bands and others were thriving in 1897 (it was in many ways the apex of their era) so he may have returned to Victoria because of a death in the family or some such event ( I recall a previous extract refers to the death of his bootmaking father Harry and someone else taking over the business as HA had a music career.
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
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- AFL Club
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Some pretty compelling evidence imo that Richardson of 1900 was not the Richardson of 1901.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139165189
Australasian 3 August 1901
Not the reference on the second page of the article to the the contribution the Leopold boys had made to the VFL "this year" and then for the first time identifies the player as A Richardson ( ie giving the player an initial- as if there were two of them).
This inferentially confirms the report of the Sportsman of 30 April 1901 which lists Richardson as being from Leopold and being a new player.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228143269
And here is the 1904 Victorian permit for Richardson to go to Perth
Age 7 May 1904
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201647152
And by way of counterpoint Argus report of 16 May 1904 showing Richardson of Richmand playing
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10319629
thereby confirming a difference between A Richardson St Kilda and Richardson of Richmond.
Once again I remind myself about assumptions. I've assumed that the Leopold Football Club was near Geelong way.
It was not. It was probably a junior club around South Melbourne ( and would later be a feeder club for South Melbourne)
Here is the report of the Record ( the South Melbourne local newspaper) of 12 April 1902 of the AGM for the last year
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165171521
which refers to some Melbourne signings.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139165189
Australasian 3 August 1901
Not the reference on the second page of the article to the the contribution the Leopold boys had made to the VFL "this year" and then for the first time identifies the player as A Richardson ( ie giving the player an initial- as if there were two of them).
This inferentially confirms the report of the Sportsman of 30 April 1901 which lists Richardson as being from Leopold and being a new player.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article228143269
And here is the 1904 Victorian permit for Richardson to go to Perth
Age 7 May 1904
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article201647152
And by way of counterpoint Argus report of 16 May 1904 showing Richardson of Richmand playing
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10319629
thereby confirming a difference between A Richardson St Kilda and Richardson of Richmond.
Once again I remind myself about assumptions. I've assumed that the Leopold Football Club was near Geelong way.
It was not. It was probably a junior club around South Melbourne ( and would later be a feeder club for South Melbourne)
Here is the report of the Record ( the South Melbourne local newspaper) of 12 April 1902 of the AGM for the last year
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165171521
which refers to some Melbourne signings.
Harry Hook
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- Sep 30, 2016
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More evidence that the Richardson who played in 1900 was not A Richardson of Leopold.
AFL tables lists Archie Richardson as playing in a game for St Kilda v Melbourne on 1 September 1900.
The attached report of the Standard of Port Melbourne of 8 September 1900 refers to Leopold's game v Caulfied and lists Richardson as one of the best best players.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164949599
AFL tables lists Archie Richardson as playing in a game for St Kilda v Melbourne on 1 September 1900.
The attached report of the Standard of Port Melbourne of 8 September 1900 refers to Leopold's game v Caulfied and lists Richardson as one of the best best players.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164949599
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
- 375
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- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
And one for the geneologists.
Attached is the wedding notice of one Thomas William Henry Richardson of Albert Park and one Katie Dunn of 29 September 1900
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139156386
So why the the interest. In the article, it is is stated that he was the third son of the late Thomas Richardson.
Given that Leopold Junior Football Club was apparently based in or about South Melbourne, we at least have a family of Richardsons within the catchment area of Leopold Junior Club.
And remember that H Archie's father was called Harry ( or likely Henry) so that if A Richardson was not HArchie Richardson chances are his father may have had a different name to H Archie's family.
Attached is the wedding notice of one Thomas William Henry Richardson of Albert Park and one Katie Dunn of 29 September 1900
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article139156386
So why the the interest. In the article, it is is stated that he was the third son of the late Thomas Richardson.
Given that Leopold Junior Football Club was apparently based in or about South Melbourne, we at least have a family of Richardsons within the catchment area of Leopold Junior Club.
And remember that H Archie's father was called Harry ( or likely Henry) so that if A Richardson was not HArchie Richardson chances are his father may have had a different name to H Archie's family.
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Hi Gibbsy. Depends where I am at with level of research I am doing (Aus/NZ or Worldwide) - usually be about 170/200, but over the years past if there has a major project of social history then happy enough for a block of time to pay portion of "annual" rate up to 400 or so - using it every day in detail = "dollar a day" but I certainly get my value out of it.
For example, it was very handy 2013-14-15 period when researching WWI service personnel, because a number of Aus people show up in NZ, UK, USA and Canadian military records.
Football (and other sport) always there in back of my mind as part of the wider social history and day-to-day occupations of players. Ancestry in recent months seem to have loaded on and INDEXED the Tas Govt Railway staff lists.
I do also use other family history sites now and then depending on what records they provide access to.
Well done to you and Harry ! I think we have probably narrowed down who the 1900 player is -
William Kendall Richardson (b c 1880 - d 1903).
A significant ref in his death notice is "late of Ralston-street, South Yarra." In general news items of that early 1900s era some people of that same street have legal matters heard in the St Kilda Court, and the St Kilda fire brigade attends incidents at buildings in that street. So, it is more than reasonable to suggest that "Will" Richardson having lived in that street played as a 20 year old for the Saints.
The Victorian BDMs site has a William Kendall Richardson birth registered in 1880 to parents William George and Elizabeth (nee Medway). The 1903 death registration shows his second name as Kindell and has the same parents named (although her maiden name is shown as Meadway).
William Henry Richardson b1874 to Thomas and Mary (nee Flynn). Thomas and Mary from 1866 to 1886 had a daughter and then five sons. They seem to have lived in different areas, so not always near Leopold club district. WH for example was registered in Sandhurst district. [by the way, text in the notice not punctuated, so the Reverend's surname Thomas bleeds into the next line which makes it look like WH's first name !]
Yes, good. Confirms different players involved.
Same the week before where AFL Tables and australianfootball.com have Archie listed as playing for St Kilda on 25 August,
and a Richardson is noted in Port Melbourne Standard's report as playing well for Leopold on same day:
http://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164945348
Further to that is a report in The Herald dated 3 May 1901, go to page 6 last column
and zoom in on the area above the Dr Morse ad
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=EVKlETVVbN8C&dat=19010503&printsec=frontpage&hl=en
in general comments on the new players at each club, the St Kilda section includes
"...Richardson, a tall man from the Leopolds, with a tremendous reach; "
Because there's alot of wonderful data being mined here, based on the last 48 hours of research posted here, Harry Hook and the croucher what is the current status IN YOUR MIND of the Richardsons careers.
1898 -
1899 -
1900 -
1901 -
1902 - 1904 : Archie Richardson VFA Richmond
1898 -
1899 -
1900 -
1901 -
1902 - 1904 : Archie Richardson VFA Richmond
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
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This is my working theory
1898 - Insufficient data re 1898 Richardson
1899 - Insufficient data re 1899 Richardson but possibly Leopold
1900 - W Richardson - geneologists to confirm not H A Richardson
1901 - A Richardson ( St Kilda) HA unknown
1902 - 1904 : H Archie Richardson VFA Richmond
1904 : A Richardson Perth
I have the feeling that by 1904 A Richardson may have been in WA allready but I put that only as a suspicion.
Nothing is etched in stone except for A\W Richardson 1900\1901
No wonder the historians may have got confused.
By way of backdrop, I found another player from 1900s this way, I won't say who. Every record had a player in about 1907 as being one player named J. I found a reference in a journal to another player dick, playing that year and J not playing. J did have a brother R and data was found to support R not J.
The club's records weren't helpful because all they had was the name and not the initial. A new player was then added.
This stuff happens infrequently due to the method of recording at that time.
1898 - Insufficient data re 1898 Richardson
1899 - Insufficient data re 1899 Richardson but possibly Leopold
1900 - W Richardson - geneologists to confirm not H A Richardson
1901 - A Richardson ( St Kilda) HA unknown
1902 - 1904 : H Archie Richardson VFA Richmond
1904 : A Richardson Perth
I have the feeling that by 1904 A Richardson may have been in WA allready but I put that only as a suspicion.
Nothing is etched in stone except for A\W Richardson 1900\1901
No wonder the historians may have got confused.
By way of backdrop, I found another player from 1900s this way, I won't say who. Every record had a player in about 1907 as being one player named J. I found a reference in a journal to another player dick, playing that year and J not playing. J did have a brother R and data was found to support R not J.
The club's records weren't helpful because all they had was the name and not the initial. A new player was then added.
This stuff happens infrequently due to the method of recording at that time.
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Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
- 375
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Just a minor thing. Did anyone check out those scoring anomalies I posted. 1 looked like there had been a transcription error in
AFL tables.
AFL tables.
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All the evidence tells us that the 1901 St Kilda player was A. Richardson, recruited that year from Leopold. Maybe his name was Archie, which added to the confusion. Would certainly like to find out his full name.
There wasn't a Richardson playing (senior games at least) for St Kilda in 1899. The 1900 player surely was William Kendall Richardson, who also seems to have been a new player for that year. Who played in 1898, who knows?! Maybe it really was H Archie Richardson that year, we only know for sure he played in the VFA for Richmond from 1902-04. Perhaps he had some falling out with St Kilda and preferred not to talk about his time there, but it's much more likely that the player the records say played in 1898 and 1900-01 didn't play for the club at all. We've found out pretty much nothing about the 1898 player, which is a problem!
Which one are you referring to, Harry?
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
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South Melbourne St Kilda 1897, first quarter score. There are a few other anomalies I mentioned but the SM STK game has greater contemporary records.
I also had a thought. Syd Phillips, the Saints man in 1897 to 1898 went to Perth in 1899 and joined the mint. He was also captain of Perth football club, reportedly, in 1904, and 1905 when Richardson played 8 games. Coincidence. Possibly not.
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
- 375
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- AFL Club
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Here is a turn up for the books.
I looked up the WAFL Footy facts site ( started in 2017) and their records for 1904 say that Richardson's name was Henry Archibald (Archie ) Richardson.
So HA Richardson was playing in the Richmond team in 1904 as well as playing for Perth in the same year....... apparently.
It would seem that this H A Richardson confusion is now ensnarling 2 sets of state records.
I looked up the WAFL Footy facts site ( started in 2017) and their records for 1904 say that Richardson's name was Henry Archibald (Archie ) Richardson.
So HA Richardson was playing in the Richmond team in 1904 as well as playing for Perth in the same year....... apparently.
It would seem that this H A Richardson confusion is now ensnarling 2 sets of state records.
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
- 375
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- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
For everyone's information. HA Richardson's father's name was apparently Henry Rockett Richardson and also had a son Thomas Archibald Richardson.
He apparently died on 16 July 1923 in Sale.
As to the names, I think I've worked why HA used the name Archie. H A was Henry Archibald ( Archibald being HR father's name) so I'm guessing HR (HA's father) went by the name Harry while HA used the name Archie.
He apparently died on 16 July 1923 in Sale.
As to the names, I think I've worked why HA used the name Archie. H A was Henry Archibald ( Archibald being HR father's name) so I'm guessing HR (HA's father) went by the name Harry while HA used the name Archie.
Harry Hook
Team Captain
- Sep 30, 2016
- 375
- 120
- AFL Club
- North Melbourne
H A Richardson was quite an athlete it seems.
Apparently according to official records in 1900 for 2 weeks in a row he was playing for St Kilda and Leopold on the same weekend for 2 weeks in a row.
Then in 1904 he was playing for Richmond's VFA side as well as Perth Football Club in WA in the same year.......
Apparently according to official records in 1900 for 2 weeks in a row he was playing for St Kilda and Leopold on the same weekend for 2 weeks in a row.
Then in 1904 he was playing for Richmond's VFA side as well as Perth Football Club in WA in the same year.......