Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Addition to the above

In the Obit it states he served in the 44th AIF the AIF page says he enlisted in Perth and gives all the correct information

Maybe look to Perth for any football/bio info

An Ahearn played in Kalgoorlie/Boulder in 1901 http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article89027165

That seems to be the only football reference to an Ahearn/Ahern in the west.

If this is the right chap (and it certainly looks a strong chance) he would have been born c. 1865, and therefore about 32 when he played that game for Carlton in 1897. So if he did move to WA a few years later (Steve Williamson thinks he was living at Coburg until 1900?) he may not have had a lot of football playing left in him by that stage.

It's pretty likely that the Ahern who played for Preston in 1893 is the same one who played for them in 1895, so it seems a bit odd S. Williamson has only spoken about him being at the club in 1893.

 

[35Daicos]

It looks highly likely that the official records have an error with the Fitzroy (vs. University) 1912 Rd. 5 lineup: https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1912/061719120525.html

The records have Dowell playing, not Laver.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/11678712 (The Argus 27 May 1912)

"Fitzroy played Laver (from North Melbourne), and Shaw, in place of Dowell and Collins."
"Almost every man on the winning side played well but some who were above the average were P. Heron, M"Lennan, Laver, Cooper, Lambert and Norris"

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/241638708

The Herald names Laver in the side, Dowell isn't named.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/197376389 (The Age)

"There was no change in the visitors' team, but Fitzroy played Laver (North Melbourne) and Shaw in place of Collins and Dowell."

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/143332502/15092530 (The Australasian)

"Shaw re-appeared, and Laver, a wing man from North Melbourne, also played."

Laver is named in the rd. 6 Fitzroy side (official lineup), Dowell isn't (there's no mention in any paper I've seen of either as an 'In' or 'Out'), and it does look fairly clear cut to me that Laver should be in the rd. 5 team, almost certainly at the expense of Dowell.

 

[rbartlett]

Great find 35Daicos . It's almost getting to the point where we have to go game by game through the teams, and player by player!

How does one go about find Birth details in Ireland? Has anyone tried that previously ?

 

[GreyCrow]

Great find 35Daicos
How does one go about find Birth details in Ireland? Has anyone tried that previously ?

Had a look last night. There are 2 William Joseph Ahearn born in Cork in 1865 but nothing stands out.

The only 1 that excites me is the following. Based on the Vic BDM that states William Joseph is the son of William and Catherine Dixon I can make a case that the mothers name might indeed be (Dix)on in the record. But nothing specific to William Joseph

First name(s) William
Last name Ahern
Birth year -
Birth date ? Mar 1865
Baptism year 1865
Baptism date 05 Mar 1865
Residence Popes Quay
Parish St. Mary's, Cork City
Alternative parish names St. Mary's, Cork
Diocese Cork and Ross
County Cork
Country Ireland
Father's first name(s) William
Father's last name Ahern
Mother's first name(s) ?
Mother's last name ?on
Repository National Library of Ireland

Add link :
National Library of Ireland link http://registers.nli.ie//registers/vtls000633160#page/1/mode/1up

Looking at the original one could argue it says Dixon

 

[the croucher]

Great find 35Daicos . It's almost getting to the point where we have to go game by game through the teams, and player by player!
<snip>

Yes, I have thought for some time we had probably reached that point.
Would be useful to know exactly what records the AFL staff hold in their collection.

I'll message the History crew and ask how extensive the run of original match day team sheets actually is,
including info on what the earliest is too.

 

[rbartlett]

Yes, I have thought for some time we had probably reached that point.
Would be useful to know exactly what records the AFL staff hold in their collection.

I'll message the History crew and ask how extensive the run of original match day team sheets actually is,
including info on what the earliest is too.

I suspect the answer you'll find is they don't have original team sheets at all for the first 60-70 years, and that they are working off the Campbell handwritten recors

 

[GreyCrow]

I am not pushing this as an inaccuracy but as a question to rbartlett

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article215991478

This little snippet talks about Victoria being called the Tigers because of the jumper they wore . It names the Captain as George Downes.

Interesting for me anyway

 

[35Daicos]

I am not pushing this as an inaccuracy but as a question to rbartlett

http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article215991478

This little snippet talks about Victoria being called the Tigers because of the jumper they wore . It names the Captain as George Downes.

Interesting for me anyway

Isn't that just referring to the team known as Victorian who played in the early days of the SAFA/SANFL? They were known as the Tigers, it seems.

BTW you look somehow different GreyCrow! What's up with that?!

Known as
Victorian
Formed
Early 1870s - precise date uncertain; changed name to North Adelaide in 1883
Disbanded
1884
Colours
Orange and black
Affiliation (Historical)
South Australian National Football league (SANFL) 1877–1884

https://australianfootball.com/Clubs/stats/Victorian/261/1891

Based in North Adelaide, Victorian played its home matches at Montefiore Hill, while its committee met at the Thistle Hotel on Kermode Street. Despite the club’s name, it was not formed by expatriates from across the border, and neither did it boast an abundance of Victorian players. In fact, it was a staunchly South Australian club, which in matches against arch rival Norwood - a club which did boast a surfeit of Victorian players - tended to see itself as upholding the honour of the colony.

 

[GreyCrow]

Isn't that just referring to the team known as Victorian who played in the early days of the SAFA/SANFL? They were known as the Tigers, it seems.

BTW you look somehow different GreyCrow! What's up with that?!

Known as
Victorian
Formed
Early 1870s - precise date uncertain; changed name to North Adelaide in 1883
Disbanded
1884
Colours
Orange and black
Affiliation (Historical)
South Australian National Football league (SANFL) 1877–1884

https://australianfootball.com/Clubs/stats/Victorian/261/1891

Based in North Adelaide, Victorian played its home matches at Montefiore Hill, while its committee met at the Thistle Hotel on Kermode Street. Despite the club’s name, it was not formed by expatriates from across the border, and neither did it boast an abundance of Victorian players. In fact, it was a staunchly South Australian club, which in matches against arch rival Norwood - a club which did boast a surfeit of Victorian players - tended to see itself as upholding the honour of the colony.

Thanks for that. Yes I lost a competition bet. Change back Sunday

 

[the croucher]

There's also the Con Ryan/Henry Molan story:- http://www.geelongcats.com.au/news/2015-03-27/the-cat-of-two-names

The ad featured a list of names, including Henry Molan and Con Ryan. The club's records stated that Molan had played five games for the Cats in 1904, while Ryan had worn the navy blue and white hoops on four occasions in 1907 and '08.

The man in question's real name was Cornelius Francis Molan. He was born in October 1886 and was known as Con. Having become a local footballer of note while growing up in Colac, he was then recruited by the nearby Geelong footy club. Molan made his VFL debut for the Pivotonians, as Geelong was then known, against Essendon at the Corio Oval on May 14, 1904. But after playing just five games he headed back to Colac.

Molan returned to the city of Geelong in 1907 and played footy with a local club. According to Molan family folklore, he was having a kick-to-kick in a paddock with a workmate when some strangers approached him.
But when he returned to the Geelong Football Club he decided to stick with the made up surname he had given the recruiting scout. So he recommenced his career as Con Ryan rather than Con Molan.

With the mysteries solved, Hutchinson is in the process of amending the club's records to show that a bloke by the name of Cornelius Francis 'Con' Molan played nine games in the hoops between 1904 and 1908. The name Con Ryan will become a footnote in Geelong's 156-year history.

http://afltables.com/afl/changes.html
April, 2015
6th: Henry Molan -> Con Molan, Con Ryan -> also Con Molan

Incredibly, the Geelong website still hasn't made the changes for Molan/Ryan or added the other Jack Ross:-
http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/i-q
Player Debut Round GFC Career Span MTCHS GLS Selection Order
Henry Molan 1904 2 1904 5 0 109

http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/r-z
Player Debut Round GFC Career Span MTCHS GLS Selection Order
Con Ryan 1907 15 1907-08 4 1 168
Jack W. Ross 1919 6 1919-22 35 1 264

Edit:- I didn't think the numbers added up despite all that!

I posted this in Stats Questions a couple of years ago (SJ said "I thought Ottens was 1000th for Geelong."):- No doubt he was, but when Tom Smith was removed from the list about a year ago that would have changed. Tom was originally thought to have played 6 games in 1919, but it was found those games belonged to Herbie Smith, whose tally went from 32 to 38.

There were posts in here about this topic last year sometime (pages 114/115).

I do find it surprising that the list of past players on the Geelong FC website was never updated after this revelation. I'd have thought Col Hutchinson would have notified the club.

The latest (2014) edition of The Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers has removed Tom Smith and altered the record of Herbie Smith. Footy Works recently made the same changes.

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/stats-questions.982511/page-141#post-33319073

The Geelong website hasn't changed this yet either!!:- http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/r-z
Player Debut Round GFC Career Span MTCHS GLS Selection Order
Herbie Smith 1920 2 1920-21 32 0 271
Tommy Smith 1919 9 1919 6 0 268

re: the Molan/Ryan situation as one example of many...
I'm afraid I have to report an extraordinary level of slackness shown by staff at a range of AFL sites and publications.

The Geelong FC website still shows Con Ryan as a player
http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/rz

The new (11th ed. pub in 2018) Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL players also continues to have him listed as a player (p 740).
I bought my copy of the new players book yesterday, and after a couple of hours random glancing, it is in my opinion no longer the reliable source we thought it was. Will post more details later in day. Some of our research finds appear to have been noted, but others are missed, and some of the old myths keep being repeated.

 

[35Daicos]

re: the Molan/Ryan situation as one example of many...
I'm afraid I have to report an extraordinary level of slackness shown by staff at a range of AFL sites and publications.

The Geelong FC website still shows Con Ryan as a player
http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/rz

The new (11th ed. pub in 2018) Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL players also continues to have him listed as a player (p 740).
I bought my copy of the new players book yesterday, and after a couple of hours random glancing, it is in my opinion no longer the reliable source we thought it was. Will post more details later in day. Some of our research finds appear to have been noted, but others are missed, and some of the old myths keep being repeated.

That's interesting, and really a bit puzzling! I'd have thought the AFL stats people would have always let the folks behind "The Encyclopedia" know of such changes, but it obviously should be up to the "book people" to ensure that they know about any changes before publishing a new edition. As for the club websites, I don't have much faith in them at all, having sent a fair few of them messages about various inaccuracies over the years, and almost always being ignored!

My copy of the book is finally meant to arrive on Wednesday. I was beginning to doubt that it even existed! I knew there had been a delay of some sorts, but the online business that I'm getting it through haven't told me anything for about 6-7 weeks, so not impressed with that. I'm interested to know if they still have Robert McKenna playing 1 game for Collingwood in 1900, since that was actually Bill Proudfoot under an assumed name, and most records would have caught up with that one a long time ago!!

 

[the croucher]

That's interesting, and really a bit puzzling! I'd have thought the AFL stats people would have always let the folks behind "The Encyclopedia" know of such changes, but it obviously should be up to the "book people" to ensure that they know about any changes before publishing a new edition. As for the club websites, I don't have much faith in them at all, having sent a fair few of them messages about various inaccuracies over the years, and almost always being ignored!

My copy of the book is finally meant to arrive on Wednesday. I was beginning to doubt that it even existed! I knew there had been a delay of some sorts, but the online business that I'm getting it through haven't told me anything for about 6-7 weeks, so not impressed with that. I'm interested to know if they still have Robert McKenna playing 1 game for Collingwood in 1900, since that was actually Bill Proudfoot under an assumed name, and most records would have caught up with that one a long time ago!!

Sorry mate, this sort of thing can get a bit deflating can't it.

Yes, McKenna still listed !

 

[rbartlett]

Just thinking out loud here...
Should we create a separate thread (or even just a page on someones site, - it can be mine), that only lists our CHANGES once we've had them confirmed; no matter how minor (ie: start times), or major (player details).

So this thread remains as a LIVE research thread but once we confirm a change, no matter how small - we place it on a CONFIRMED CHANGE thread so it gives us a simplified/ easier to read thread of all our confirmed changes.
Plus we could also list on that thread what ERRORS still exist in AFL publications that haven't been changed yet.

Or, am I over thinking everything.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Just thinking out loud here...
Should we create a separate thread (or even just a page on someones site, - it can be mine), that only lists our CHANGES once we've had them confirmed; no matter how minor (ie: start times), or major (player details).

So this thread remains as a LIVE research thread but once we confirm a change, no matter how small - we place it on a CONFIRMED CHANGE thread so it gives us a simplified/ easier to read thread of all our confirmed changes.
Plus we could also list on that thread what ERRORS still exist in AFL publications that haven't been changed yet.

Or, am I over thinking everything.

That sounds like a good idea for me but keep it on here.

Using that new thread as a dumping ground much like on AFL Tables is a fantastic idea.

I feel like that OP will be needing a multitude of post dumps.

1: The introduction to the thread + confirmed changes.
2: The errors still needing addressing.
3: The sources used for those individual cases. (E.g. Ancestry, BillionGraves, Trove, FindAGrave Etc Etc Etc.)
4: A link to each solved query and a link to the original query.
5: A tally so that we can keep a record of who addressed each query.

So using that example of mine, we leave it as clutter free as possible.

Another thread would be good to document all emails.

I'm just haphazardly dumping ideas without any sort of clarity.

 

[rbartlett]

This may have already been mentioned somewhere in previous 63 pages but I did a quick search and couldn't see anything.
Rd 4 1908 Ess vs Richmond - The Age match description constantly refers to 'Wilson' (quotation marks are added by The Age). http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197345051
There's no Wilson in the lineup as per AFL Tables https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/051419080523.html
Obviously its a player under an assumed name. I initially thought it was Paddy Shea, as The Age says 'Wilson' kicks at least 3 goals for Essendon and Shea is the only multiple kicker for Ess. But in The Argus report, Shea is mentioned by name, and Wilson is also mentioned (without quotation marks).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10673389

Am I missing something obvious ?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Using that new thread as a dumping ground much like on AFL Tables is a fantastic idea.

Quoting myself I'll clarify what I mean.

Creating a page similar to this including dates of change/confirmation.

https://afltables.com/afl/changes.html.

 

[the croucher]

Quoting myself I'll clarify what I mean.

Creating a page similar to this including dates of change/confirmation.

https://afltables.com/afl/changes.html.

Yes, that might work okay, especially for the more straightforward entries.

However, I wonder if something like the spreadsheet viewable via this page
http://acscricket.com/?page_id=1006

might be needed for some of our more complicated issues ?

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Yes, that might work okay, especially for the more straightforward entries.

However, I wonder if something like the spreadsheet viewable via this page
http://acscricket.com/?page_id=1006

might be needed for some of our more complicated issues ?

So much better.

 

[rbartlett]

Excellent. Who is the google doc expert here in the thread? Because I reckon start a new thread for confirmed entires and past the Google Doc link in the OP and away we go.

If we go for it, I recommend that all entries requesting changes must have a seconder, someone who has looked over the research and agrees with the recommendation.

 

[the croucher]

This may have already been mentioned somewhere in previous 63 pages but I did a quick search and couldn't see anything.
Rd 4 1908 Ess vs Richmond - The Age match description constantly refers to 'Wilson' (quotation marks are added by The Age). http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article197345051
There's no Wilson in the lineup as per AFL Tables https://afltables.com/afl/stats/games/1908/051419080523.html
Obviously its a player under an assumed name. I initially thought it was Paddy Shea, as The Age says 'Wilson' kicks at least 3 goals for Essendon and Shea is the only multiple kicker for Ess. But in The Argus report, Shea is mentioned by name, and Wilson is also mentioned (without quotation marks).
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article10673389

Am I missing something obvious ?

Rhett, I think the "official" team list is correct.
Don't know why the different name used, but it appears certain to me that Shea was named "Wilson" in some reports.

The Australasian report published on page 23 of the next Saturday praises Shea's efforts effusively
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/11426172

the bottom of the previous page commenting that M Shea was missing for Essendon
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/11426171

the Weekly Times report also names Shea as kicking 3 goals
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/page/24191064

 

[rbartlett]

Stephen Rodgers email received tonight from Barb Cullen, regarding player Pat Kennedy - Haw/Carl (note the full name is also different)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Kennedy_(footballer,_born_1904)

Patrick Alphonsus Kennedy

"Dear Gentlemen
After chatting with the daughter of the above player she confirms that his date of birth was : 29 July 1903 NOT 12 May 1904. Date of Death : 21 August 1981 NOT 13 July 1972
He served in WW2 from 9 July 1942 where he was a surveyor, ending up on 29 July 1958 as a Major. He had a brother who was KIA in WW1.
The family think he was the first player recruited from Assumption before going to Newman College at Melb. University. He didn’t appear to have a nickname and was thought to be a right footer.
The family are related to Coach John Kennedy."

Rodgers then explains the reasoning behind the initial error thusly
"I think the situation can be explained this way:
Man No. 1

KENNEDY
Patrick Adrian Cattanach
b. 1904 at Cobram (No. 17018)
to parents
John Timothy/Mary Winifred Cattanach
died 1972 at Fitzroy aged 68 (No. 17168)


Man No. 2

KENNEDY
Patrick Alphonzo (death: Alphonsus)
b. 1903 at Cobram (No. 17007)
to parents
Daniel/Bridgit Noonan
died 1981 at Glen. aged 78 (No. 19597)

So it seems, we had Man No. 1, as the player, when we should in fact have had Man No. 2.

As a player, coming to Carlton in 1923, I had him as being recruited from:

University Blacks; prior to that: Newman College; prior to that: South Melb CYMS; prior to that: Cobram.

Incredible, don't you think, that both blokes were born at Cobram!"

 

[RedmanWasHere]

If this Kennedy is related to Kanga, we'd need to inform Gigs about that and add this Kennedy alongside Kanga, John Jr and Josh.

 

[35Daicos]

It's almost getting to the point where we have to go game by game through the teams, and player by player!

Rhett (if you haven't done so already), can you pass on the story about the Fitzroy (vs. University) 1912 Rd. 5 lineup from up the page a bit, as it looks very clear that Laver should replace Dowell in the team?

 

[rbartlett]

Dick Condon did not coach Richmond in Rd 17 or 18 1909.
He had been dispensed with on August 24th, as a player and coach, (having earlier resigned the captaincy on June 3)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article198486076
The head trainer for Richmond , Charlie Taylor was appointed the caretaker coach for the remaining two matches.

The above post is from way back on page 14 - post #341.
Now we know Condon was dispensed with as Richmond coach near end of 1909, and we (Trev Ruddell and I) leaning towards Charlie "Fishy" Taylor as the caretaker coach. But I would need a seconder on this - or perhaps I'm drawing a bow where there isn't one.

The Richmond Guardian Aug 29 1909 attachment is here, which is what we worked from.

 

[rbartlett]

Rhett (if you haven't done so already), can you pass on the story about the Fitzroy (vs. University) 1912 Rd. 5 lineup from up the page a bit, as it looks very clear that Laver should replace Dowell in the team?

Just sent it off then for you buddy.
(side note: I'm going game by game through Richmond's history from its VFL beginning, to see if any errors. Atm up to 1908 Rd 4)