Remove this Banner Ad

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

the croucher said:
Have just discovered that the 2018 Season Guide has an error in the list of Stawell Gift winners on page 1197.
Harry Rigby (Carlton, Melbourne) is shown as winner of the 1909 Gift. He was CH Rigby and died in 1924, various reporters at the time making false assumption and crediting the wrong person.

The 1909 Gift winner was in fact HF Rigby of Burnie (died in Tas 10 Sept 1967)
and who is pictured here in a group portrait taken on 1 Jan 1952:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69241446

Here too is an extensive interview with him in 1946:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/69060132
Click to expand...

Further confirmation that the wrong Rigby had been credited with being Stawell Gift winner.

Claude Henry Rigby appears in the 1909 electoral roll in the seat of Batman, sub-district Collingwood
with residential address of 56 Mater Street and occupation of chemist,
Isabella Ellen Rigby is at same address with home duties shown, she being his wife (nee Megson)
married in 1908 reg #9805

Another contemporary ref to HF Rigby of Burnie, Tasmania, being the winner in 1909 is here:
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/72828066


I contacted the AFL and Season Guide people about a week ago, no response from them yet.
 
the croucher said:
Yes, that might work okay, especially for the more straightforward entries.

However, I wonder if something like the spreadsheet viewable via this page
http://acscricket.com/?page_id=1006
might be needed for some of our more complicated issues ?
Click to expand...

Thinking out loud here -if we think a Google Doc isn't the go - would a spreadsheet uploaded to a DropBox that people can access via a link be suitable ?
 
Stephen Rodgers has replied.
Regarding the Ahern info we provided a few posts back:
- Steve W has agreed that we will go with
William Joseph Ahern as the Carl player.
Barb Cullen knows about the WW1 record. She will explore ways of getting the date of birth.
(I think we've got everything else we need, on him.)

- re Dowell/Laver - you wouldn't believe it! I'd noted it, years ago!
(see photo attached) -
for some reason it hadn't been entered on the database!
(Col knows to amend, now)

- with Rigby (and I note, he's
C.H.Rigby in the clearance book -
is everything about him Ok? (as a
player) - is it just the fact that he's not the Stawell Gift winner? -
that's all? (Rhett: I've emailed back saying Rigby the player details are fine, its just that he's no a Stawell Gift winner)

- Charles Thomas Pierce - Barb
has an amended date of birth as
3 - 2 - 1917

- You know all about the
P.A.Kennedy situation

- I've asked Russell if he can get
d-o-b's for:
Michael Alphonsus Hayes
Miles Alexander Dobson
William Kendall Richardson

On that last one,Rhett!
if the BF guys can concentrate on
the rest of the Richardson case -
who the other 2 are? '98 and '01
(rather than coming up with any
"new" cases)
If we can just resolve that whole
thing, that would be so good!!
I'll take on board, anything that
sounds reasonable

 

Attachments

  • 20180501_153302.jpg
    20180501_153302.jpg
    174.7 KB · Views: 107
the croucher said:
More errors from the 2018 Season Guide.

p969 -1952 GF - the 1/4-by-1/4 score for Collingwood is wrong, shows qtr time score as 1.2, but should be 1.1

p977 - 1960 GF - the 1/4-by-1/4 score for Melbourne is wrong, shows half time as 5.7, three-qtr as 7.11, but should be 5.5 & 7.12

p997 - 1979 GF - the 1/4-by-1/4 score for Carlton is wrong, shows qtr time as 0.5, but should be 0.4
Click to expand...

Double-checked my personal emails and noticed I'd forgotten to send this to AFL & Season Guide staff, so have done so today.
 

Log in to remove this Banner Ad

im certain there is a simple explanation for this which you experts will spot quickly. I was looking on trove at reports of the first Footscray VFL game in 1925. Reports all talk of Thomas Mullins playing for the tricolours. Afl tables and blueseum has him as mullens. BDM has a Mullins born in his year of birth but no Mullens. He was born in Ballarat apparently. I suspect newspapers in the 20s were not fastidious about spelling.
 
Allan Shorty said:
im certain there is a simple explanation for this which you experts will spot quickly. I was looking on trove at reports of the first Footscray VFL game in 1925. Reports all talk of Thomas Mullins playing for the tricolours. Afl tables and blueseum has him as mullens. BDM has a Mullins born in his year of birth but no Mullens. He was born in Ballarat apparently. I suspect newspapers in the 20s were not fastidious about spelling.
Click to expand...
The newspapers certainly weren't at all reliable with the spelling of players' names back in those days, so it's very likely that any discrepancy can be put down to that. A few references to Mullins can be found, but many more seem to have Mullens. Any official records I've checked have Mullens, as well. He was T. Mullens in the Football Record when he received his permit to go from Footscray to Carlton in 1926.

BDM does have it as Mullens when he died in 1961:
Event Death
Event registration number 14850
Registration year 1961

Personal information
Family name MULLENS
Given names Thomas Patrick
Sex Male
Father's name MULLENS Thomas
Mother's name Isabella (Mckenzie)
Place of birth BALLARAT
Place of death FOOTSCRAY WEST
Age 61
 
Last edited:
This needs to be looked into, at least as far as the DOD is concerned. The official records have Tom Mullen playing one (VFL) game for Geelong in 1897.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Mullen.html
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/tom+mullins/1001
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Tom_Mullen_(Australian_footballer)

AustralianFootball.com calls him Mullins, and has his DOD as 4 November 1942. Wikipedia has the same DOD, and says that he died at Stawell.

This article has Tom Mullen, who played football for Geelong and was from Stawell, as having died earlier that same year: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225570224 (22 April 1942)

TOM MULLEN DEAD
TOM MULLEN, a noted Geelong footbailer and cricketer, has died at Stawell, where he had been living for about 40 years. He played for Geelong in the famous team that won the premiership in 1886, and was considered one of the fastest wingmen in the game. He also played cricket at Geelong, and continued the game when he went to Stawell.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8241763 (13 April 1942)

MR TOM MULLEN
GEELONG, Sat: Mr Tom Mullen, who died at Stawell on Saturday, was a member of the Geelong championship football team of 1886. At that time he was one of the fastest and youngest players in the team. He played with the Geelong team for 16 years.

Family Notices [coming soon]
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) Saturday 11 April 1942 p 4 Family Notices
... . Phone MX310T. MULLEN — The 'funeral of the late THOMAS STEPHEN MULLEN will leave his residence.

According to the article in the link above this one (Geelong story), he died on the Saturday (11th), so it's probably a bit odd that his funeral notice would be in that day's paper.

'The Encyclopedia' calls him Tom S. Mullen, though it has 25 Dec 1869 (instead of 1868) for his DOB.

Ancestry has this: Thomas Stephen Mullen
Born in Geelong West on 26 Dec 1869. Thomas Stephen Mullen married Bridget Eleanor Dunne and had 6 children. He passed away on 4 Nov 1942 in Stawell.

This has a photo of the gravestone, and it says "Thomas S. Mullen Dec. 1868 - April 1942".
 
35Daicos said:
The newspapers certainly weren't at all reliable with the spelling of players' names back in those days, so it's very likely that any discrepancy can be put down to that. A few references to Mullins can be found, but many more seem to have Mullens. Any official records I've checked have Mullens, as well. He was T. Mullens in the Football Record when he received his permit to go from Footscray to Carlton in 1926.

BDM does have it as Mullens when he died in 1961:
Event Death
Event registration number 14850
Registration year 1961

Personal information
Family name MULLENS
Given names Thomas Patrick
Sex Male
Father's name MULLENS Thomas
Mother's name Isabella (Mckenzie)
Place of birth BALLARAT
Place of death FOOTSCRAY WEST
Age 61
Click to expand...
Thanks. The death registration is probably the authority as in the 60s they'd get this right. I think his birth reg is 8344 and says Mullins and is wrong then. He had a couple of good seasons. Anyway - thanks for yr help.

IMG_2244.JPG
 
Last edited:
35Daicos said:
This needs to be looked into, at least as far as the DOD is concerned. The official records have Tom Mullen playing one (VFL) game for Geelong in 1897.

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/T/Tom_Mullen.html
https://australianfootball.com/players/player/tom+mullins/1001
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Tom_Mullen_(Australian_footballer)

AustralianFootball.com calls him Mullins, and has his DOD as 4 November 1942. Wikipedia has the same DOD, and says that he died at Stawell.

This article has Tom Mullen, who played football for Geelong and was from Stawell, as having died earlier that same year: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/225570224 (22 April 1942)

TOM MULLEN DEAD
TOM MULLEN, a noted Geelong footbailer and cricketer, has died at Stawell, where he had been living for about 40 years. He played for Geelong in the famous team that won the premiership in 1886, and was considered one of the fastest wingmen in the game. He also played cricket at Geelong, and continued the game when he went to Stawell.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/8241763 (13 April 1942)

MR TOM MULLEN
GEELONG, Sat: Mr Tom Mullen, who died at Stawell on Saturday, was a member of the Geelong championship football team of 1886. At that time he was one of the fastest and youngest players in the team. He played with the Geelong team for 16 years.

Family Notices [coming soon]
The Herald (Melbourne, Vic. : 1861 - 1954) Saturday 11 April 1942 p 4 Family Notices
... . Phone MX310T. MULLEN — The 'funeral of the late THOMAS STEPHEN MULLEN will leave his residence.

According to the article in the link above this one (Geelong story), he died on the Saturday (11th), so it's probably a bit odd that his funeral notice would be in that day's paper.

'The Encyclopedia' calls him Tom S. Mullen, though it has 25 Dec 1869 (instead of 1868) for his DOB.

Ancestry has this: Thomas Stephen Mullen
Born in Geelong West on 26 Dec 1869. Thomas Stephen Mullen married Bridget Eleanor Dunne and had 6 children. He passed away on 4 Nov 1942 in Stawell.

This has a photo of the gravestone, and it says "Thomas S. Mullen Dec. 1868 - April 1942".
Click to expand...

Couple of comments:
(1) think I have solution for difference in DOD. Correct date is 11 April 1942, but if a person (e.g. using Ancestry system) was unused to "Australian" format of dates they would have interpreted 11/04/42 as the "American" format being 4 November !

(2) if Mullen had been in failing health for a while, family may have been preparing funeral plans for a few days, so when he died perhaps in very early hours of 11 April, the local funeral director could have had time to confirm arrangements, and family still able to lodge funeral ad in the final evening edition of The Herald.
 
the croucher said:
re: the Molan/Ryan situation as one example of many...
I'm afraid I have to report an extraordinary level of slackness shown by staff at a range of AFL sites and publications.

The Geelong FC website still shows Con Ryan as a player
http://www.geelongcats.com.au/club/history/every-player/rz

The new (11th ed. pub in 2018) Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL players also continues to have him listed as a player (p 740).
I bought my copy of the new players book yesterday, and after a couple of hours random glancing, it is in my opinion no longer the reliable source we thought it was. Will post more details later in day. Some of our research finds appear to have been noted, but others are missed, and some of the old myths keep being repeated.
Click to expand...

Further general comment on new edition of players Encyclopedia... and this from a cursory glance, not intensive audit of entries.

Still only one Jack Ross shown, there should be two players of that name; George Vautin is still shown as playing senior football in Launceston aged 13, a myth that was exposed years ago; this thread has found dozens (maybe into hundreds) of incorrect team lists thus affecting career record tallies, some of those changes don't appear to have been noticed; and a number of players are still credited with being a "Champion of the Colony," again a myth that was exposed years ago.

Oh, and Rhys Mathieson who at end of 2017 had played 24 games with 16 goals kicked - the Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL Players has his career record as 95 games, 26 goals !!
 
Last edited:
the croucher said:
Further general comment on new edition of players Encyclopedia... and this from a cursory glance, not intensive audit of entries.

Still only one Jack Ross shown, there should be two players of that name; George Vautin is still shown as playing senior football in Launceston aged 13, a myth that was exposed years ago; this thread has found dozens (maybe into hundreds) of incorrect team lists thus affecting career record tallies, some of those changes don't appear to have been noticed; and a number of players are still credited with being a "Champion of the Colony," again a myth that was exposed years ago.

Oh, and Rhys Mathieson who at end of 2017 had played 24 games with 16 goals kicked - the Encyclopedia of VFL/AFL Players has his career record as 95 games, 26 goals !!
Click to expand...
Disappointing! I realise that a lot of effort must have gone into putting that book out years ago, but it really looks as if they haven't been too diligent in recent times.

With Mathieson's games tally, perhaps they have added his 24 games to the 71 played by Jim Mathieson (Geelong 1920-24)! Doesn't explain the discrepancy with the goal tally, however!
 
1908 Carnival Wikipedia page says the Bill Luff who played for Victoria is the Essendon player.
Obviously can't be him as he was born in 1909.
It is actually Bill Luff who played for Richmond VFA and VFL. I'll update wiki - but unsure if there's any other sites/AFL records that lists the wrong Bill Luff or just wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1908_Melbourne_Carnival
 

Remove this Banner Ad

rbartlett said:
Stephen Rodgers has replied.
Regarding the Ahern info we provided a few posts back:
- Steve W has agreed that we will go with
William Joseph Ahern as the Carl player.
Barb Cullen knows about the WW1 record. She will explore ways of getting the date of birth.
(I think we've got everything else we need, on him.)

- re Dowell/Laver - you wouldn't believe it! I'd noted it, years ago!
(see photo attached) -
for some reason it hadn't been entered on the database!
(Col knows to amend, now)

- with Rigby (and I note, he's
C.H.Rigby in the clearance book -
is everything about him Ok? (as a
player) - is it just the fact that he's not the Stawell Gift winner? -
that's all? (Rhett: I've emailed back saying Rigby the player details are fine, its just that he's no a Stawell Gift winner)

- Charles Thomas Pierce - Barb
has an amended date of birth as
3 - 2 - 1917

- You know all about the
P.A.Kennedy situation

- I've asked Russell if he can get
d-o-b's for:
Michael Alphonsus Hayes
Miles Alexander Dobson
William Kendall Richardson

On that last one,Rhett!
if the BF guys can concentrate on
the rest of the Richardson case -
who the other 2 are? '98 and '01
(rather than coming up with any
"new" cases)
If we can just resolve that whole
thing, that would be so good!!
I'll take on board, anything that
sounds reasonable
Click to expand...

Mmmm...yes, it would be nice to solve the Richardson issue for sure...and perhaps I'm mis-reading it but:
"..rather than coming up with any "new" cases..."

Are we being told to back off ?
 
the croucher said:
Have had a bit of a glance, but at moment not coming up with anything...(probably staring me in the face, but am having a relaxed start to Saturday so pls bear with me !!!)

Who is Charles Thomas Pierce ?
Click to expand...
Charlie Pierce (Hawthorn 1937-39, North Melbourne 1939)

https://afltables.com/afl/stats/players/C/Charlie_Pierce.html

https://afltables.com/afl/changes.html

May, 2018
: Fixed DOB Charlie Pierce, Bill Laver in for Charlie Dowell Fitzroy r5, 1912, thanks Rob H.

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Charlie_Pierce_(footballer)
 
Last edited:
the croucher said:
Mmmm...yes, it would be nice to solve the Richardson issue for sure...and perhaps I'm mis-reading it but:
"..rather than coming up with any "new" cases..."

Are we being told to back off ?
Click to expand...

Nah not at all mate.
I think its more he is hoping there isn't any more examples of the 'Richardson' confusion.
 
For those looking for UK records the 1939 Register is available on Ancestry and this weekend for free (if it doesnt work from your au login try the uk login)

It's here! Start exploring the 1939 Register today on Ancestry: https://ancstry.me/2rtIzfY
Enjoy free access until Sunday 13th May.
 

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

1920s St Kilda great Colin Watson polled 9 best-on-ground performances to win the 1925 Brownlow Medal. A remarkable feat, made mention in no less than three newspapers (The Australasian, Geelong Advertiser, The Argus) by the fact that he only played 13 out of 17 matches due to an injury sustained in the July 4th state carnival match. Yet AFL Tables has him lining up for 15 matches that season, only missing 2 games in July (Rds 10 & 11). Is this a case of the newspapers being inaccurate or is there more to discover here?
 
red+black said:
So the question might be did he actually play in Rounds 12 and 13? It would seem he did play 93 games so I'm guessing afltables is correct and that he only missed Rounds 10 and 11.
Click to expand...
He was named in the team for Rounds 12 and 13 in a couple of papers I've looked at. I haven't looked any further than that.
 
35Daicos said:
He was named in the team for Rounds 12 and 13 in a couple of papers I've looked at. I haven't looked any further than that.
Click to expand...

Well he played Rd 12 (Aug 1 1925) according to The Argus http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2150366
"St. Kilda had two of their champions, Colin Watson (who was heartily cheered
as he ran on to the field) and Gambetta, in the colours once more, but neither was at his best. It was some time before
Watson, who wore a liberal supply of sticking plaster to protect his injured jaw could get into it."
And that extract suggests he hadn't play week before or so , which correlates to AFL Tables. So definitely played Rd 12.

The Argus then has him for Rd 13 vs Hawthorn http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article2153889
"Watson half-back showed a return to form"
 
Last edited:
rbartlett

Rhett, I've just noticed this while looking through the 1925 papers, and it should be worth following up: Both The Herald and The Sporting Globe name Empey in the Richmond lineup for the Rd. 14 game against Fitzroy, but he's not in the "official" lineup. The Sporting Globe says "Richmond were without the services of Spain, Horne and McCaskill, and played J. Huggard, Empey and Moore." The Herald does include McCaskill, which makes it a bit confusing. It also names Elliott for Fitzroy, but he was apparently a late withdrawal (replaced by Warren), according to The Argus. The Herald match report actually mentions Warren, even though they don't have him named in the side, so perhaps they have it wrong with McCaskill as well? The "official" lineup doesn't include Elliott. The match report in The Australasian doesn't help in this case.

For the next week's game, The Sporting Globe says "the Tigers included Fraser, Baxter (an old Scotch Collegian) and Lunn" in place of Maxfield, Empey and Woods.", while The Herald has "Richmond played Lunn, Baxter and Moore, in place of Maxfield, Empey and Woods". They don't mention McCaskill anywhere, so he probably didn't play in Rd. 14. It looks very likely that Empey and Wood did, but I'm not sure who else should come out of the "official lineup". The Sporting Globe had Fraser in their lineup for the Rd. 14 game and mentioned him as kicking a point, yet say he was an 'in' for Rd. 15.
 
Last edited:

Remove this Banner Ad

Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

Similar threads

L
old night series footy records
Replies
1
Views
816
the croucher
T

🥰 Love BigFooty? Join now for free.

Back
Top