Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

Just a question for the likes of WhiteHartLane23 , the croucher , 35Daicos and others....
c) If Yes, are we drawing a too long bow connecting Walter Johnson in Cheltenham 1907, and the W Johnson (Cheltenham) in Richmond's 1908 season, and potential Rd 8 1908 match? Are we connecting dots that aren't strong enough , simply because we want it to be the player in question?

The first name of the star Cheltenham player was Walter: "He then presented Cr. Srudds's trophy (a handsome clock) to Walter Johnson, for best all-round play" https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164417724 (15 Sep. 1906)

This also calls him Walter Johnson: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164416137 (28 Sep. 1907)

It seems that he went back to Cheltenham in 1909 (having gone to Mentone half way through the year before), as again he was named "Best all-round" player: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164404721

A W. Johnson had been the club's Secretary but resigned early in 1910: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/164404138

This is his death notice, but WHL already provided these details.

 

[rbartlett]

There is a family tree on Ancestry showing Walter & Florrie that seems fairly well researched

WHL any active branches on this tree? DM me if you like. I may reach out and see if family knows anything of his football careers.

 

[rbartlett]

From http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19582648 it appears likely he was Walter Johnson
Looking on Ancestry, there is a Walter Johnston living in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909 electoral rolls, occupation grocer & living with a Florrie Elizabeth Johnston

So just confirming , Ancestry has "Walter Johnston" (with a t ) , and he is the ONLY Walter Johnston, or Walter Johnson in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909?
The press reports, and RFC AR list W. Johnson.

Devil's Advocate here:
Should we be concerned that, as per earlier in this thread, the July 1908 Mentone report (remember, this is after he is to have played 1 game with Richmond), lists two players for Mentone who "have done service in League society" but then mentions Johnson , Cheltenham, separately. If he had played for Richmond one month earlier, would he have not been mentioned in the same 'League society' reference. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164349161

 

[35Daicos]

Devil's Advocate here:
Should we be concerned that, as per earlier in this thread, the July 1908 Mentone report (remember, this is after he is to have played 1 game with Richmond), lists two players for Mentone who "have done service in League society" but then mentions Johnson , Cheltenham, separately. If he had played for Richmond one month earlier, would he have not been mentioned in the same 'League society' reference. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article164349161

Perhaps the reporter simply wasn't aware that he had played that one game at League level, and just knew he was ex-Cheltenham? As for the other two mentioned, Bert Sharpe was a Premiership player and played more than 100 games, while Ernie (Percy) Blencowe played a modest 7 games (spread over 2 seasons), but both should have been well enough known.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

So just confirming , Ancestry has "Walter Johnston" (with a t ) , and he is the ONLY Walter Johnston, or Walter Johnson in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909?

Yes - he is the only one in Cheltenham and in almost all records he has a "t". See excepts below...

Australia, Electoral Rolls, 1903-1980
State: Victoria > District: Balaclava > Sub-district: Cheltenham
1906:


1909:

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

WHL any active branches on this tree? DM me if you like. I may reach out and see if family knows anything of his football careers.

I contacted the tree owner when I found it a couple of days ago and received this response last night:
Hi,
Walter was my great grandfather, and unfortunately I know little about him. My Uncle Bryan could possibly know as Walter was his Grandfather, but sadly I haven’t been able to track him down. Last I could find is that he was living in Sandringham.

From looking at the tree "Uncle Bryan" is Bryan Roy Johnston (b 1944)

 

[GreyCrow]

From http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-page19582648 it appears likely he was Walter Johnson
Looking on Ancestry, there is a Walter Johnston living in Cheltenham in 1906 and 1909 electoral rolls, occupation grocer & living with a Florrie Elizabeth Johnston

And to confuse matters further there is no Johns(T)on marrying a Florrie Elizabeth but there is , of course, a Johnson marrying a Florrie Elizabeth Hutchins in 1903

Event registration number 7433 Registration year 1903 Personal information Family name JOHNSON Given names Walt

Spouse's family name HUTCHINS Spouse's given names Florrie Elizth

But thats a minor issue but one to be careful of

 

[rbartlett]

Update: I've submitted a lengthy document to my RFC historical committee for discussion.
In it I recommend there is now an undocumented RFC player from 1908, and that his name is likely to be Walter Johnston.
I will advise of the outcome of that.

Update:
We may never find the smoking gun that connect Walter Johnston , Cheltenham to Richmond Rd 8.
We may never find a permit of his movements to and from Richmond.

But I'm confident to say that the Rd 8 player is different to Rd 2 player. The Alex Johnston permit away from Richmond and him lining up for Nth Melb the same day as Rd 8 Richmond player is very strong evidence.

I think the evidence naming and identifying Walter Johnston as that player is pretty good, and, as has been pointed out here, is much stronger evidence than what Rodgers has used when naming players from earlier clubs/seasons

 

[ThePope]

Update: I've submitted a lengthy document to my RFC historical committee for discussion.
In it I recommend there is now an undocumented RFC player from 1908, and that his name is likely to be Walter Johnston.
I will advise of the outcome of that.

Update:
We may never find the smoking gun that connect Walter Johnston , Cheltenham to Richmond Rd 8.
We may never find a permit of his movements to and from Richmond.

But I'm confident to say that the Rd 8 player is different to Rd 2 player. The Alex Johnston permit away from Richmond and him lining up for Nth Melb the same day as Rd 8 Richmond player is very strong evidence.

I think the evidence naming and identifying Walter Johnston as that player is pretty good, and, as has been pointed out here, is much stronger evidence than what Rodgers has used when naming players from earlier clubs/seasons

Have Richmond allocated player cap numbers to everyone who's played since? Anyone got a tattoo or similar based on that number?
#oops

 

[rbartlett]

Have Richmond allocated player cap numbers to everyone who's played since? Anyone got a tattoo or similar based on that number?
#oops

Well about 10 years ago the discovery of Ern Hill meant all numbering was then off. So this is nothing new (from that point of view)

 

[Gibbsy]

Well about 10 years ago the discovery of Ern Hill meant all numbering was then off. So this is nothing new (from that point of view)

Do you have any more info about Ern and that discovery?

 

[Obi fella]

Do you have any more info about Ern and that discovery?

 

[rbartlett]

Do you have any more info about Ern and that discovery?

I don't think I've got the documentation on me at the moment, that was researched by Trev Ruddell, but in sketchy summary, Herbert Hill was rubbed out , yet a "Hill" played in his spot for those weeks, and that was his brother Ern Hill. Late in the 1909 season from memory

 

[rbartlett]

View attachment 553529

Obi, you'll need to put context around that document. Not sure where it is from etc

 

[Obi fella]

Obi, you'll need to put context around that document. Not sure where it is from etc

It's a 1909 footy record (Victorian Football Follower) I have. I'll find out the exact round when I get home. Annoying that initials are not given. First initial only given when two players have the same surname.

 

[rbartlett]

Hmmm Actually, does anyone know where one can find the 1908 Victorian Football Follower.
MCC Library says they have : Vol.6, No.3, May 20, 1905 (No. 1855); Vol.6, No.5, June 3 1905 (3932); Vol.6, No.7, June 10, 1905 (4047); Vol.6, No.11, July 8, 1905 (3376); Vol.6, No.15, August 5, 1905 (3974); Vol.9, No.7, 9th June 1906 (4043); Vol.9, No.11 7th July 1906 (2741) ; Vol XI No.8, 12th June 1908 ; (Photocopy: Vol XI No.8, 12th June 1908); Vol.XI No.14, 24th July 1908

I've asked to view the 12th June 1908 as that is the day before Rd 8 1908 (the disputed 'Johnstone'). If the week after exists, it may offer a review of Richmond's Rd 8 match and give us more info.

UPDATE: State Library seems to have them on microfilm as per advice from MCC. So may go there to see out the 1908 series

UPDATE 2: MCC has looked at the June 12 1908 entry. Screenshot attached. No Johnston(s) mentioned at all in squad.
Not highly surprising. It seems only The Herald and Richmond Australian have him in their lineup, for the match review.
Richmond got thrashed in this match so detailed reports are all but zero in the press. The club was affected with at least 5 outs due to illness and injury, and hence possible that W. Johnston came in on game day.

UPDATE 3: Not sure who the 'Brennan' is in the squad. Didn't play Senior football according to our records.

 

[Obi fella]

Obi, you'll need to put context around that document. Not sure where it is from etc

Round 8 Ess v Rich 1909 team lists.

 

[rbartlett]

So Rodgers did another look through his permit book for any Johnson from/to Richmond covering 1907-1909 and no other one appears other than A. Johnston.
He does that the clearance books "concentrates primarily on clearances - involving VFL clubs - to and from other senior clubs, not "the juniors" - that's just the way they did clearances then."
So that could explain why Walter Johnston does appear in a clearance because he is coming from Cheltenham, which isnt a 'major senior club'.

His search for the mysterious J. Green, who is listed in the Herald squads of Rd 11, 13, 15 in 1908 for Richmond, and importantly on the PLAYERS section of the RFC Annual Report bring up nothing in the clearance book.
If we accept W Johnston as Walter Johnston, then that just leaves 1 name on that RFC AR as not having played a senior game - J. Green, which would a bit peculiar wouldn't it. Why would the club list him if he didn't play at least one game. Why wouldn't they list other players from the pre-season who didnt get a senior game. Something to keep in back of the mind.

 

[35Daicos]

His search for the mysterious J. Green, who is listed in the Herald squads of Rd 11, 13, 15 in 1908 for Richmond, and importantly on the PLAYERS section of the RFC Annual Report bring up nothing in the clearance book.
If we accept W Johnston as Walter Johnston, then that just leaves 1 name on that RFC AR as not having played a senior game - J. Green, which would a bit peculiar wouldn't it. Why would the club list him if he didn't play at least one game. Why wouldn't they list other players from the pre-season who didnt get a senior game. Something to keep in back of the mind.


View attachment 554086

John Green played 3 games for Essendon in 1906. Perhaps he headed to Richmond a couple of years later to try his luck?

 

[rbartlett]

Putting up a possibility
Richmond had a Horace Lyons play for them in 1903.
That is Horrie Lyons who played for Prahran from at least 1899 - 1903. and then back to Prahran in 1904, after Richmond.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180224971 (1899 team photo)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165241036 (1901)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165402548 (1903)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165403204 (1904)

So my question is... would he possibly be the Harvey "Horrie" Lyons who played for Sth Melbourne in 1897, and then StKilda in 1898.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

Rhett

 

[35Daicos]

Putting up a possibility
Richmond had a Horace Lyons play for them in 1903.
That is Horrie Lyons who played for Prahran from at least 1899 - 1903. and then back to Prahran in 1904, after Richmond.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180224971 (1899 team photo)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165241036 (1901)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165402548 (1903)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165403204 (1904)

So my question is... would he possibly be the Harvey "Horrie" Lyons who played for Sth Melbourne in 1897, and then StKilda in 1898.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

Rhett

The Prahran player is pictured here as well, along with several Richmond players and others who were considered "prominent footballers of the Association".

 

[GreyCrow]

Putting up a possibility
Richmond had a Horace Lyons play for them in 1903.
That is Horrie Lyons who played for Prahran from at least 1899 - 1903. and then back to Prahran in 1904, after Richmond.
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article180224971 (1899 team photo)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165241036 (1901)
https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/165402548 (1903)
http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article165403204 (1904)

So my question is... would he possibly be the Harvey "Horrie" Lyons who played for Sth Melbourne in 1897, and then StKilda in 1898.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

Rhett

Australian football have a player listed as Horrie Lyons 'aka Horace' that played for St Kilda and South. Yet the DOB and DOD do match Harvey Lyons born 1876 died 1951 . Maybe a change to Harvey.

On your query have you seen this http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article241879554

On Saturday next the Young Magpies will play Lyons (from Richmond), Beacham (from Masottra) and Peter Miller against the Fltzroy Crescent.

Edit: I see it is S Lyons http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202617277

 

[rbartlett]

Edit: I see it is S Lyons http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article202617277

1.
Yep I associate the 1899 Lyons as perhaps Johnny Lyons who went to Coll the next year. So S Lyons may be typo
https://tigerlandarchive.org/tiki-index.php?page=VFA+Players

2.
But for the Horrie Lyons query I'm confident he is Prahran 1899 -1903, then Richmond 1903, then back to Prahran 1904.
Just the pre 1899 connection to Sth or Stk is what I'm looking for.

3.
Have I inadverntently flagged a potential name change with Harvey Lyons?
Wiki has him as Harvey "Horrie'" Lyons. Wouldn't "Horrie" be a nickname for Horace, not Harvey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

 

[GreyCrow]

2.
But for the Horrie Lyons query I'm confident he is Prahran 1899 -1903, then Richmond 1903, then back to Prahran 1904.
Just the pre 1899 connection to Sth or Stk is what I'm looking for.

I havent been able to find anything conclusive.

3.
Have I inadverntently flagged a potential name change with Harvey Lyons?
Wiki has him as Harvey "Horrie'" Lyons. Wouldn't "Horrie" be a nickname for Horace, not Harvey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

As I said Australianfootball.com has him as Horace. Not sure what others have listed him as

Full name
Horace Lyons

Known as
Horrie Lyons

Born
4 August 1876

 

[35Daicos]

3.
Have I inadverntently flagged a potential name change with Harvey Lyons?
Wiki has him as Harvey "Horrie'" Lyons. Wouldn't "Horrie" be a nickname for Horace, not Harvey https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horrie_Lyons

I havent been able to find anything conclusive.

As I said Australianfootball.com has him as Horace. Not sure what others have listed him as

Full name
Horace Lyons

Known as
Horrie Lyons

Born
4 August 1876

'The Encyclopedia' has him as Harvey 'Horrie' Lyons, and says he's ex-South St Kilda.

Edit: There's two death notices here where he is just Harvey.