Thanks very much for doing that. Quite a sizeable task, that one! It now looks good, and makes much more sense!
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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
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Several sources have Henry Allender, who played one game for Carlton in 1899, with a DOD of 25 April 1939. It seems very clear that is not correct:
australianfootball.com
www.blueseum.org
A George Henry Allender died in 1939 and was about the right age, so perhaps that's where it comes from, but that's not the footballer.
There's quite a lot of this on Ancestry:
Here are death notices for his father, who died in 1927:
Those notices indicate that his son Henry had died by that time.
When the Carlton player's brother died in 1912 the two death notices I've seen don't mention siblings (so can't be sure if Henry was still alive then).
There's a 1909 Victoria Brewery FC team photo on Ancestry that's meant to show Henry and his brother, but I think it's much more likely to be James and the father Henry, not Henry who played for Carlton:
James was 39 at the time and Henry (junior) would have been 37, while the father was c. 65.
There was another Henry William Allender around back then (he was married to Kathleen Amelia), but he died in 1959, aged 72-73 (birth reg. 1887), so was not the footballer:
A relative of Henry William Allender contacted Collingwood the other day (Henry played for Collingwood Juniors before and after his stint with Carlton) asking if we had any information on him, including when he died, and who was his NOK. So even his own family don't know when he died. I can't find anything that helps at the moment, but we can be confident it wasn't in 1939, and that it happened before his father died in 1927!
Henry Allender - Wikiwand
Henry Allender was an Australian rules footballer who played with Carlton in the Victorian Football League (VFL).
www.wikiwand.com
Australian Football - Henry Allender - Player Bio
Henry Allender | Blueseum - History of the Carlton Football Club
Blueseum: History of the Carlton Football Club
www.blueseum.org
A George Henry Allender died in 1939 and was about the right age, so perhaps that's where it comes from, but that's not the footballer.
There's quite a lot of this on Ancestry:
Here are death notices for his father, who died in 1927:
Those notices indicate that his son Henry had died by that time.
When the Carlton player's brother died in 1912 the two death notices I've seen don't mention siblings (so can't be sure if Henry was still alive then).
There's a 1909 Victoria Brewery FC team photo on Ancestry that's meant to show Henry and his brother, but I think it's much more likely to be James and the father Henry, not Henry who played for Carlton:
James was 39 at the time and Henry (junior) would have been 37, while the father was c. 65.
There was another Henry William Allender around back then (he was married to Kathleen Amelia), but he died in 1959, aged 72-73 (birth reg. 1887), so was not the footballer:
A relative of Henry William Allender contacted Collingwood the other day (Henry played for Collingwood Juniors before and after his stint with Carlton) asking if we had any information on him, including when he died, and who was his NOK. So even his own family don't know when he died. I can't find anything that helps at the moment, but we can be confident it wasn't in 1939, and that it happened before his father died in 1927!
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Thanks for that, looks like his birth certificate is needed to clarify the spelling. His son wrote an article about him in 2016 referring to him as 'Erwin':
Erwin Dornau – The first Queenslander to play in the VFL - Q150
Another request, the Balldale wiki page needs updating as well.
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Stephen R has email to advised that
Fitzroy 1917 - Frank Strawbridge Frank Strawbridge - Wikipedia
is now to be
William Frank Strawbridge DOB 24.1.1896. /. DOD 22.5.1968
and WW2 service record.
There was a huge amount of attachment and research that he sent me.
I wont post here, but if anyone wants it forwarded on just DM your email address.
Can someone update the wiki please.
Rhett
Fitzroy 1917 - Frank Strawbridge Frank Strawbridge - Wikipedia
is now to be
William Frank Strawbridge DOB 24.1.1896. /. DOD 22.5.1968
and WW2 service record.
There was a huge amount of attachment and research that he sent me.
I wont post here, but if anyone wants it forwarded on just DM your email address.
Can someone update the wiki please.
Rhett
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Sorry to say - this looks like it is not 100% correct to me.
Footballer is William Frank Strawbridge DOB 24.1.1896 - this checks out in Trove (particulary breach of promise articles from 1925) and Vic BDM shows birth in 1896.
However the 1968 death is for the William Frank Strawbridge who was born in 1910. (Vic BDM records show this)
The footballer was later a leather worker and appears on electoral roles in Queensland from 1954 onwards.
Death should be 25 January 1971 in Brisbane (based on matching parents names)
Queensland BDM record:
Yes, I agree. I think the research the AFL based their change on, has confused two generations.
I think the Strawbridge who dies in 1968 is the son of the footballer.
GreyCrow
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Just a simple one
Jack Uwins Richmond 1937 is listed as Jack on AF when he should be Arthur Johns
UWINS Arthur Johns Birth 1913 Mother Jessie GRAHAM Father Jno Martin
RICHMOND
1913
25742/1913
UWINS Frank Edwd Birth Mother Jessie GRAHAM Father Jno Martin RICHMOND
1915
6937/1915
Jack Uwins Richmond 1937 is listed as Jack on AF when he should be Arthur Johns
UWINS Arthur Johns Birth 1913 Mother Jessie GRAHAM Father Jno Martin
RICHMOND
1913
25742/1913
UWINS Frank Edwd Birth Mother Jessie GRAHAM Father Jno Martin RICHMOND
1915
6937/1915
Stephen R agrees.
Will amend to 25.1.1971 Brisbane
Wiki will need to be updated by our wikipedian
There's nothing major at all here, but after looking up ex-St Kilda, Carlton and Collingwood player Harry Matheson on Ancestry it became quite clear that Essendon one-gamer Alby Matheson and he were siblings. The game's records don't have this:
There's a 1932 family photo (John and Jane's wedding anniversary) on Ancestry, and off to the side it has:
On Harry Matheson's Blueseum page it says:
That will almost certainly be Harry's brother, who played for North Shore: Albert Donald Matheson | Football history
There's a Matheson playing for Carlton District in 1913-14 (at least) and I suspect that would be him:
There's a 1932 family photo (John and Jane's wedding anniversary) on Ancestry, and off to the side it has:
On Harry Matheson's Blueseum page it says:
That will almost certainly be Harry's brother, who played for North Shore: Albert Donald Matheson | Football history
There's a Matheson playing for Carlton District in 1913-14 (at least) and I suspect that would be him:
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This was a long time ago but...
I was looking to update wikipedia entry for John William Ross and things don't seem to stack up
John William Ross was born in Ramsbottom, Lancashire, England on 15 August 1895 - son of David Ross & mother not yet identified (she died when he was still young) and father re-married to Elizabeth in 1900s
He appears in 1911 census living in Ramsbottom with his father and step-mother (age 15, occupation iron turner in textile industry)
He married Doris Evelyn Temple Dawson (1897-1994) in April 1922 at Heywood, Lancashire, England
John and Doris first appear in Australian electoral roll records in 1931 in Geelong North and Ancestry trees show an emigration record for Doris in 1927 (possible this is not correct)
John William Ross died at Geelong North in 1943
I just cant see it being likely that this Jack Ross came to Australia, played two games of VFL football, went back to England & got married and then emigrated later in the 1920s.
If we look at records relating to the player, this article after his first game shows he came from East Geelong but I can't find much on Trove that helps to confirm the identity of the player. I haven't seen anything that even shows given name initials... (maybe football record?) In order to change official records we would need a clear alternative identified with evidence - I think the current record is unlikely to be correct but have no alternative suggestion. Anyone have any ideas?
I wonder if this is just a mistake in the paper?:
Or could the 1919 Geelong player have been R. Ross? There were two players named Ross playing for East Geelong in 1919, and it would be interesting to know if they were related:
***************
The 1920-22 Geelong player joined Chilwell from Werribee in July 1919.
There was another John William Ross living in the Geelong area in 1919 (the English-born chap was a textile machinist in England in 1911 and textile operator when living at Geelong in 1928, and shouldn't be the driver named here - most likely he's nowhere near Australia at this stage!):
That should be this person:
The death notice was in The Age on 4 June, and Ryerson has him dying on 1 June.
I certainly don't know for sure that this John William Ross was the 1919 Geelong footballer, but if they are looking for someone of that name I do think he's much more likely than the chap who is currently in the records as having played!!
They did have the player (when they thought there was only the one of them) as Jack W. Ross back in the days of the Historical Statistics website:
The Football Record doesn't give anything away (this was from Rd. 9 edition):
Ancestry trees have a John William Ross (1892-1940) married to Lenora Rowe and seemingly living his entire life at Ballarat, but I'm almost certain the Geelong-born chap married that lady.
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I sought out the original email from Stephen R
"Jack Ross, who is in the records as the Geel player of 1919-22, is actually 2 Jack Ross's! The more prominent guy is John Charles Ross, 1920-22, OK career but more prominent later as an administrator (remember the N.H.Drew/J.C.Ross Stand) - well, we've just been given incontrovertible truth that the 2 games of 1919 were played by John William Ross. (Both called Jack)..."
I could follow up with him and ask him for evidence he was given
"Jack Ross, who is in the records as the Geel player of 1919-22, is actually 2 Jack Ross's! The more prominent guy is John Charles Ross, 1920-22, OK career but more prominent later as an administrator (remember the N.H.Drew/J.C.Ross Stand) - well, we've just been given incontrovertible truth that the 2 games of 1919 were played by John William Ross. (Both called Jack)..."
I could follow up with him and ask him for evidence he was given
^ From looking at Rhett's post it really does seem as if the Geelong 1919 player should be John William Ross, and the 1891-1983 chap must be very likely to be that person. But there's this:
And this:
There's the R. Ross again! There were 2 players named Ross at East Geelong in 1919, but the paper did say R. Ross was the one who had played for Geelong that year. So I think it's very likely that R. Ross is the player we're after.
trove.nla.gov.au
Fair chance this is referring to the North Geelong player's place:
That chap was known as Dick Ross (I presume it's Richard/Dick): NORTH GEELONG NEWS - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 3 Aug 1925
Dick Ross played for the billiard room team and was named among the best players. It looks like he was captain of North Geelong in 1921, and I've seen him named at CHB a few times (he played in the backline when he played for Geelong). He was also playing cricket for North Geelong around that time.
There was a Richard William Jolly Ross (1889-1955) living at Geelong West in 1919, and he was at Geelong North in 1921:
That^ is the chap with the billiard hall:
But was he the 1919 Geelong footballer? To me just about everything fits, though he'd have been c. 30 when he played those couple of games. If the AFL chaps insist it has to be John William Ross (and known as Jack) that would obviously be an issue, but I do like this story!
And this:
There's the R. Ross again! There were 2 players named Ross at East Geelong in 1919, but the paper did say R. Ross was the one who had played for Geelong that year. So I think it's very likely that R. Ross is the player we're after.
NORTH BEATS BARWON. - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 13 Sep 1920
That it is Occasionally justifiable to swop horses when crossing a stream was demonstrated on Saturday afternoon at the new oval, Kardinia Park, when North Geelong, ...
trove.nla.gov.au
Fair chance this is referring to the North Geelong player's place:
That chap was known as Dick Ross (I presume it's Richard/Dick): NORTH GEELONG NEWS - Geelong Advertiser (Vic. : 1859 - 1929) - 3 Aug 1925
Dick Ross played for the billiard room team and was named among the best players. It looks like he was captain of North Geelong in 1921, and I've seen him named at CHB a few times (he played in the backline when he played for Geelong). He was also playing cricket for North Geelong around that time.
There was a Richard William Jolly Ross (1889-1955) living at Geelong West in 1919, and he was at Geelong North in 1921:
That^ is the chap with the billiard hall:
But was he the 1919 Geelong footballer? To me just about everything fits, though he'd have been c. 30 when he played those couple of games. If the AFL chaps insist it has to be John William Ross (and known as Jack) that would obviously be an issue, but I do like this story!
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Hi Rhett - I think that would be helpful - I totally agree that the 1919 games are for a different Ross to the 1920-22 games now credited to J. C. Ross.
I've looked up the UK 1921 census and the John William Ross currently identified as the player was living in Lancashire with his parents in April 1921 so it seems really unlikely he was the player - but if family members have clear evidence that has been passed on to AFL then that is great and my query was in vain.
Personally, I think all the evidence in newspapers points to Richard William Jolly Ross (1889-1955) as identified by 35Daicos being the 1919 player.
I'd also like to know what made them conclude that the English-born and raised John William Ross was the Geelong 1919 player! Once they decided/heard that was the player's name why didn't they find the chap (with the exact same name) who was born at Geelong, was okay age-wise, and living there in 1919?! He wasn't that hard to find. If they still insist that J. W. 'Jack' Ross has to be the player then they at least should make it the local lad, not someone who almost certainly hadn't been within a thousand miles of this land at that stage of his life!
It really should be Richard/Dick, and I will be rather bemused if the "billiard hall man" doesn't get the nod! Pretty much everything points to him being the player, not John/Jack.
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The records have Collingwood 1921-23 player Tom Hammond with a DOB of 22 November 1896:
It appears that way on Wikipedia, AustralianFootball.com, AFL Tables, and Collingwood Forever.
His birth wasn't registered until 1897:
Several trees on Ancestry have 22 December 1896 as the DOB, and the 1897 birth reg. makes it seem more likely he was born late in 1896:
Most of the Ancestry trees just have 1897, but none have 22 November 1896. Proving this either way may be very difficult, but I would at least like to know where the AFL got their DOB from!
=======================================================================================================================
Just a minor one for Oliver Gigacz , as AustralianFootball.com doesn't have this:
John 'Jiggy' Harris (Collingwood, Hawthorn) and Stan Harris (Richmond, Footscray) were brothers. Wikipedia already has it:
A check of BDM confirms the two have the same parents.
It appears that way on Wikipedia, AustralianFootball.com, AFL Tables, and Collingwood Forever.
His birth wasn't registered until 1897:
Several trees on Ancestry have 22 December 1896 as the DOB, and the 1897 birth reg. makes it seem more likely he was born late in 1896:
Most of the Ancestry trees just have 1897, but none have 22 November 1896. Proving this either way may be very difficult, but I would at least like to know where the AFL got their DOB from!
=======================================================================================================================
Just a minor one for Oliver Gigacz , as AustralianFootball.com doesn't have this:
John 'Jiggy' Harris (Collingwood, Hawthorn) and Stan Harris (Richmond, Footscray) were brothers. Wikipedia already has it:
A check of BDM confirms the two have the same parents.
Wikipedia and AustralianFootball.com have this Fitzroy player as Jack Edgeley:
It does look certain that his last name should be Edgley:
Probate:
AFL Tables has Edgley, and the AFL Historical Statistics website had that back in the day:
The Encyclopedia also has Edgley in more recent editions, but as far back as the 1998 one he was Edgeley. I'd say a change in the official records must have occurred somewhere along the line.
This is from his sister's wedding:
Oliver Gigacz
It does look certain that his last name should be Edgley:
Probate:
AFL Tables has Edgley, and the AFL Historical Statistics website had that back in the day:
The Encyclopedia also has Edgley in more recent editions, but as far back as the 1998 one he was Edgeley. I'd say a change in the official records must have occurred somewhere along the line.
This is from his sister's wedding:
Oliver Gigacz
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The game's records have this chap playing for Fitzroy in 1908:
I think they have the wrong person, and that it's very likely the player was:
He was known as Egbert (Bert), presumably because his father was also James:
Bert Thorpe played with Collingwood District (Collingwood's unofficial reserves team at the time) for many years:
It would be very surprising if that wasn’t the player who played senior football with Fitzroy in 1908. I think the AFL chaps may have picked the wrong James!! Thorpe played for Fitzroy 2 May and 13 June 1908. Bert Thorpe plays the 1909 Rd. 1 game for CD (Collingwood District) on May 1st, just a couple of days after J. E. Thorpe joined from Fitzroy, and stays in the team pretty much from then on. So I’m sure J. E. Thorpe and Bert Thorpe will be the same person! We have Thorpe playing 3 games in 1907, but (this is where it gets tricky!) also 1 game in 1908. That’s a Rd. 5 game, played on 30 May. So did he leave CD for Fitzroy at the start of 1908 (or even during 1907), return briefly, head back to Fitzroy soon after, then go back to CD at the start of the following year?! I think he must have, but it does seem strange! That’s about the only doubt I have with this.
He lived with his parents at North Fitzroy around the time he played for Fitzroy:
The family had been living at that address for quite a few years.
===============================
When he made his Fitzroy debut the four "main" papers said he was from Clifton Hill:
Clifton Hill is very close to North Fitzroy, so perhaps they mean the area rather than the football club. There's an E. Thorpe in a 1906 Spensley Street Methodist FC team photo. There's also a D. Thorpe, and Egbert/Bert had a younger brother, Daniel. Spensley Street is at Clifton Hill. A significant number of the players in that team photo went on to play for Collingwood District, with Jack Edgley and (almost certainly) Bert Thorpe playing for CD and at senior level with Fitzroy. At Fitzroy he played on the wing, at CD he usually played as a centreman:
This does suggest Thorpe was quite well known at the time he played his first game of 1909 for CD:
If anyone has anything to add please do so! While I know for sure James Egbert Thorpe was living in the perfect spot (Fitzroy area) in 1908, I'd like to know where James Lyell Thorpe was by then, but haven't found him. By 1914 (when he enlisted) he seems to have been living in NSW, and spent the rest of his days there. By 1905 his parents and three siblings were living in Lyttelton New Zealand, but it doesn't look as if he was with them.
I think they have the wrong person, and that it's very likely the player was:
He was known as Egbert (Bert), presumably because his father was also James:
Bert Thorpe played with Collingwood District (Collingwood's unofficial reserves team at the time) for many years:
It would be very surprising if that wasn’t the player who played senior football with Fitzroy in 1908. I think the AFL chaps may have picked the wrong James!! Thorpe played for Fitzroy 2 May and 13 June 1908. Bert Thorpe plays the 1909 Rd. 1 game for CD (Collingwood District) on May 1st, just a couple of days after J. E. Thorpe joined from Fitzroy, and stays in the team pretty much from then on. So I’m sure J. E. Thorpe and Bert Thorpe will be the same person! We have Thorpe playing 3 games in 1907, but (this is where it gets tricky!) also 1 game in 1908. That’s a Rd. 5 game, played on 30 May. So did he leave CD for Fitzroy at the start of 1908 (or even during 1907), return briefly, head back to Fitzroy soon after, then go back to CD at the start of the following year?! I think he must have, but it does seem strange! That’s about the only doubt I have with this.
He lived with his parents at North Fitzroy around the time he played for Fitzroy:
The family had been living at that address for quite a few years.
===============================
When he made his Fitzroy debut the four "main" papers said he was from Clifton Hill:
Clifton Hill is very close to North Fitzroy, so perhaps they mean the area rather than the football club. There's an E. Thorpe in a 1906 Spensley Street Methodist FC team photo. There's also a D. Thorpe, and Egbert/Bert had a younger brother, Daniel. Spensley Street is at Clifton Hill. A significant number of the players in that team photo went on to play for Collingwood District, with Jack Edgley and (almost certainly) Bert Thorpe playing for CD and at senior level with Fitzroy. At Fitzroy he played on the wing, at CD he usually played as a centreman:
This does suggest Thorpe was quite well known at the time he played his first game of 1909 for CD:
If anyone has anything to add please do so! While I know for sure James Egbert Thorpe was living in the perfect spot (Fitzroy area) in 1908, I'd like to know where James Lyell Thorpe was by then, but haven't found him. By 1914 (when he enlisted) he seems to have been living in NSW, and spent the rest of his days there. By 1905 his parents and three siblings were living in Lyttelton New Zealand, but it doesn't look as if he was with them.
James Lyell Thorpe is listed as a Scotch College premiership player, maybe that why he's been identified as the Fitzroy player:
https://www.scotch.vic.edu.au/greatscot/2010sepGS/51.htm
44 James Lyell Thorpe
Born 21 October 1884. SC 1900. SC 1st XVIII 1900 (premiership player, 1900). Debuted 2 May 1908. Fitzroy 1908. Two games. No goals. Died 25 September 1962
Thanks for that. I did actually see that, and "conveniently" left it out of my post!! I am hoping they just put him on that list of Scotch College students who went on to play VFL/AFL football because the AFL chaps think he is the Fitzroy player, rather than them knowing he was for sure! While that does perhaps cast some doubt on things I still think there is more than enough evidence to suggest he's been wrongly identified in the game's records.
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This is probably not wrong in AFL records but is incorrect on australianfootball.com and Tigerland Archive
Joe Rowe (Richmond) is listed on these sites as being Joseph Rowe
Vic BDM & electoral rolls show he was actually
John Henry Rowe (known as Joe when playing football)
Born: Long Gully, Victoria 26/05/1901
Died: Eaglehawk, Victoria 21/07/1968
Oliver Gigacz rbartlett
Joe Rowe (Richmond) is listed on these sites as being Joseph Rowe
Vic BDM & electoral rolls show he was actually
John Henry Rowe (known as Joe when playing football)
Born: Long Gully, Victoria 26/05/1901
Died: Eaglehawk, Victoria 21/07/1968
Oliver Gigacz rbartlett
A date of death for Collingwood player Orm Pleasents is known, but not shown on australianfootball.com: Orm Pleasents | Wikiwand
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
Same with Wally Sykes: Wally Sykes | Wikiwand
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
Oliver Gigacz
Orm Pleasents
Orm Pleasents had a sense of timing. Six days before the Armistice was signed, and five days before he turned 36, the one-game Collingwood footballer, bank accountant and veteran of two wars sensed his moment and took it. It was November 5, 1918, and Captain Pleasents would produce an act of...
Same with Wally Sykes: Wally Sykes | Wikiwand
Wally Sykes
From Fitzroy Baptists, he played in the VFA with Richmond from 1905-06 after his two matches with Collingwood in 1904.
Oliver Gigacz
Les Thompson is another Collingwood player in the above category: Les Thompson (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
Also Kevin Phillips: Kevin Phillips (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
Oliver Gigacz
Les Thompson
Les Thompson was born in Korumburra in 1928 and played school football before playing for the Korumburra senior football team in 1945 at the age of 17. Bob Makeham, a four-time premiership player at Collingwood and the local hotelier, saw Les play and was so impressed he decided to write a...
Also Kevin Phillips: Kevin Phillips (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand
Kevin PHILLIPS
Visit Collingwood Forever to research, discover and learn about the famous characters and iconic moments that make up the tapestry of the Collingwood Football Club.
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
Oliver Gigacz