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Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records
- Thread starter Supermercado
- Start date
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FYI
Its still impossible to do keyword searches across the Footy Records on the revamped SLV site.
Ive sent off an email to them again to advise, but thought Id paste the email address here to if anyone else wants to shoot off a quick respectful email asking for the keyword search function to be reimplemented
askslv@libraryresearch.info
Its still impossible to do keyword searches across the Footy Records on the revamped SLV site.
Ive sent off an email to them again to advise, but thought Id paste the email address here to if anyone else wants to shoot off a quick respectful email asking for the keyword search function to be reimplemented
askslv@libraryresearch.info
- Jul 26, 2014
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Ernie Shaw played a single game on the wing for Melbourne in 1927 - however it seems clear we have a wrongly identified player here.
The dates of birth/death current recorded for the player match those of Ernest Colin Shaw who was born, lived and died in Mildura. I could find no evidence of him ever being in Melbourne
The player received a permit to play with Melbourne and is recorded as having come from Elsternwick Amatueurs.
A trove search gave me this article from 1926 which names him as "Eddie Shaw" - he had been playing as a winger for Elsternwick for 5 years at that point and the article states that he was born in Elsternwick. A search for Edward Shaw gave me nothing suitable, but expanding my search a bit gave me:
Edgar Clarence Shaw
Born 1903 Elsternwick, Victoria
Died 25 May 1981 Burwood East, Victoria (buried in Box Hill Cemetery)
Very confident this is the player - any help finding exact DOB would be appreciated
Supermercado - FYI
The dates of birth/death current recorded for the player match those of Ernest Colin Shaw who was born, lived and died in Mildura. I could find no evidence of him ever being in Melbourne
The player received a permit to play with Melbourne and is recorded as having come from Elsternwick Amatueurs.
A trove search gave me this article from 1926 which names him as "Eddie Shaw" - he had been playing as a winger for Elsternwick for 5 years at that point and the article states that he was born in Elsternwick. A search for Edward Shaw gave me nothing suitable, but expanding my search a bit gave me:
Edgar Clarence Shaw
Born 1903 Elsternwick, Victoria
Died 25 May 1981 Burwood East, Victoria (buried in Box Hill Cemetery)
Very confident this is the player - any help finding exact DOB would be appreciated
Supermercado - FYI
Last edited:
Nice work! Ancestry has 11 trees for Edgar Clarence Shaw; 9 of them just have him being born in 1903, while 2 have this:
It's odd these two don't even have the year of his death (most of the others do), so who knows how reliable it is?!
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Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
- Thread starter
- #2,980
Thanks for this, I have added a note to his Demonwiki page pending any further information.
Looks like date of death correct. A search of Box Hill Cemetery records gives date of funeral service for Edgar Clarence Shaw as 29 May 1981.
Search | Box Hill Cemetery
www.boxhillcemetery.com.au
- Jul 26, 2014
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I got the date of death from his probate record on Ancestry - these have always been accurate as far as I can tell.Looks like date of death correct. A search of Box Hill Cemetery records gives date of funeral service for Edgar Clarence Shaw as 29 May 1981.
Search | Box Hill Cemetery
The DOB on the Ancestry trees is the same day as the DOD so I am suspicious about its accuracy - particularly as these two trees are mega-trees that do not seems to be from close family members. If the numerical sequencing on birth records are used as a guide I would expect DOB to be a bit later in the year - but sometimes births are registered late so this is at best indicative.
- Jul 26, 2014
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Lew Sharpe played for St Kilda, Footscray, Fitzroy and Essendon.
Wikipedia has DOD as 19 March 2001 and australianfootball.com has 9 Mar 2001.
Death notice shows that correct date is actually 9 Mar 2000 (full name was Lewis Arthur Sharpe)
Summary: Update date of death for Lew Sharpe to 9 Mar 2000
Oliver Gigacz - FYI
Wikipedia has DOD as 19 March 2001 and australianfootball.com has 9 Mar 2001.
Death notice shows that correct date is actually 9 Mar 2000 (full name was Lewis Arthur Sharpe)
Summary: Update date of death for Lew Sharpe to 9 Mar 2000
Oliver Gigacz - FYI
Looks like date of death correct. A search of Box Hill Cemetery records gives date of funeral service for Edgar Clarence Shaw as 29 May 1981.
Search | Box Hill Cemetery
Yes, I'd be very wary of that DOB. Perhaps they know something that no-one else on Ancestry does, but I doubt it! Strangely, I hadn't even noticed that they'd used the same day (25 May) as the one from the DOD, so I'd say that makes it even more unlikely to be correct!!
The death notice for Shaw published in The Age includes full run of family, and age as being 77 years.
Suggests, as posted by other colleagues here, that DOB on Ancestry trees may not be accurate.
Mr Rodgers emailled a few of us with updates to outstanding queries.
I think WhiteHartLane23 was cc'd on them too.
- J. T. Marr
Ok, died 19/7/1975
D-o-d now included.
- H.J. Barr
Ok, died 28/7/1909
D-o-d now included.
- C.S.McCartney
Ok, died 17/8/1947
D-o-d now included.
- J.S.Sutherland
Ok, died 31/5/1973
D-o-d now included.
- J.J.McKenzie
I'd say we'll go by what Greg says, and change the d-o-b to 7/5/1908.
And include a d-o-d of 2/8/1939
So, he's Ok now too.
- Ted Heffernan
Despite what Greg says, I see him in Births as
Edward Page Heffernan
b. 1869 at Gisborne (No. 8881) to
Thomas/Mary Minogue
Going by what Greg says - that this is the same person, as the one he's identified in Deaths - he seems to be in Deaths as
Richard Heffernan
parents: Thomas/Mary Minogue
died 1904 (No. 6277) at Prn H. aged 34;
so by age, that seems to be Ok, basically matching what Greg is telling us - that he died on 16/5/04, his 35th birthday;
so I suppose we'll now say he's Ok, and go with this.
- S.O.J.Buck
Despite what Greg alludes to, there is nothing in Vic Deaths, from 1945 to 1947 possibly matching.
- R.R.Craig
It's always been a bit of a bugbear, that we haven't been able to "finish him off."
Greg gives details, of a death in Buenos Aires, but no actual date.
- Bill Hearn
There is no doubt, I believe, that Roger Musgrove Hearn is the right person.
We have his d-o-b of course; noted as
4 - 3 - 1914 (Often referred to, as 4 - 3 - 1913; however the birth record is,
born 1914 at W. Riding Bungaree (No. 1405)
I think we've all seen the The Herald article of Page 8, June 16, 1936 -
this shows that Roger Musgrove Hearn is clearly the Richmond player.
(Greg may not have; hence his speculation about Roy William Hearn.)
Hearn the player called himself Bill; and in his enlistment in WW2, on the WW2 nominal roll, he actually enlisted as William Hearn.
After the war, it all seems to be a dead end. Greg speculates on a 1974 death? - don't really know about that. Having such a strong link to Ballarat, it's frustrating that he doesn't seem to be in Ballarat cemetery, Old or New, whatever variation of his name.
A.R.Carr
no longer a problem, with a d-o-d of
16 - 6 - 1997
- George Lockwood
nothing to add, still, to just a year of death of 1946
- A.C.F.Neeson
a worse case than Hearn, if that's possible!
Remember we spent quite a lot of time on him some years ago, but no conclusion.
He apparently also went by the surname of Briggs. From memory, the speculation was that he died as a recluse in a monastery in WA somewhere. No firm details.
Remember now, that is all Rodgers wording and info. Not me. So I can't help you if you are disputing anything written above.
The Greg he is referring to is Greg Wardell-Johnson a WAFL Historian
I think WhiteHartLane23 was cc'd on them too.
- J. T. Marr
Ok, died 19/7/1975
D-o-d now included.
- H.J. Barr
Ok, died 28/7/1909
D-o-d now included.
- C.S.McCartney
Ok, died 17/8/1947
D-o-d now included.
- J.S.Sutherland
Ok, died 31/5/1973
D-o-d now included.
- J.J.McKenzie
I'd say we'll go by what Greg says, and change the d-o-b to 7/5/1908.
And include a d-o-d of 2/8/1939
So, he's Ok now too.
- Ted Heffernan
Despite what Greg says, I see him in Births as
Edward Page Heffernan
b. 1869 at Gisborne (No. 8881) to
Thomas/Mary Minogue
Going by what Greg says - that this is the same person, as the one he's identified in Deaths - he seems to be in Deaths as
Richard Heffernan
parents: Thomas/Mary Minogue
died 1904 (No. 6277) at Prn H. aged 34;
so by age, that seems to be Ok, basically matching what Greg is telling us - that he died on 16/5/04, his 35th birthday;
so I suppose we'll now say he's Ok, and go with this.
- S.O.J.Buck
Despite what Greg alludes to, there is nothing in Vic Deaths, from 1945 to 1947 possibly matching.
- R.R.Craig
It's always been a bit of a bugbear, that we haven't been able to "finish him off."
Greg gives details, of a death in Buenos Aires, but no actual date.
- Bill Hearn
There is no doubt, I believe, that Roger Musgrove Hearn is the right person.
We have his d-o-b of course; noted as
4 - 3 - 1914 (Often referred to, as 4 - 3 - 1913; however the birth record is,
born 1914 at W. Riding Bungaree (No. 1405)
I think we've all seen the The Herald article of Page 8, June 16, 1936 -
this shows that Roger Musgrove Hearn is clearly the Richmond player.
(Greg may not have; hence his speculation about Roy William Hearn.)
Hearn the player called himself Bill; and in his enlistment in WW2, on the WW2 nominal roll, he actually enlisted as William Hearn.
After the war, it all seems to be a dead end. Greg speculates on a 1974 death? - don't really know about that. Having such a strong link to Ballarat, it's frustrating that he doesn't seem to be in Ballarat cemetery, Old or New, whatever variation of his name.
A.R.Carr
no longer a problem, with a d-o-d of
16 - 6 - 1997
- George Lockwood
nothing to add, still, to just a year of death of 1946
- A.C.F.Neeson
a worse case than Hearn, if that's possible!
Remember we spent quite a lot of time on him some years ago, but no conclusion.
He apparently also went by the surname of Briggs. From memory, the speculation was that he died as a recluse in a monastery in WA somewhere. No firm details.
Remember now, that is all Rodgers wording and info. Not me. So I can't help you if you are disputing anything written above.
The Greg he is referring to is Greg Wardell-Johnson a WAFL Historian
And I've received this in my inbox from Mr Rodgers
Hi Rhett,
A granddaughter of Billy Harrison, the Essendon player, has contacted Col to point out that his dates are wrong.
Both in wikipedia, and australian football . com.
(Probably the easiest- regarding the mistakes - is to also send you my email to Col, last night, about this.)
So, to sum up, the correct info is:
William (no middle name)
(called Billy)
Harrison
Essendon 1909 - 11
D-o-b 5 - 11 - 1883
D-o-d 29 - 4 - 1949
Hi Rhett,
A granddaughter of Billy Harrison, the Essendon player, has contacted Col to point out that his dates are wrong.
Both in wikipedia, and australian football . com.
(Probably the easiest- regarding the mistakes - is to also send you my email to Col, last night, about this.)
So, to sum up, the correct info is:
William (no middle name)
(called Billy)
Harrison
Essendon 1909 - 11
D-o-b 5 - 11 - 1883
D-o-d 29 - 4 - 1949
Sorry to be a pain, but any update on this Jim Oakes query from about a year ago?
I haven't submitted anything to Rodgers to him in a year, as per his request. So if there is an update, its hasn't come from my correspondence
- Jul 26, 2014
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rbartlett - Don't think I was on these - but would love to receive them if you can fwd them on
Bit mystified by McCartney - I thought this was clearly C. P. McCartney - died 26 May 1949. There are news articles re his mother's death while he was playing with West Melb that provide a pretty strong identification.
C. S. McCartney was 40 when the player finished his career - seems quite unlikely that he would be the player but I've been wrong before
I've sent you the two emails now. Confirm once you receive themrbartlett - Don't think I was on these - but would love to receive them if you can fwd them on
Bit mystified by McCartney - I thought this was clearly C. P. McCartney - died 26 May 1949. There are news articles re his mother's death while he was playing with West Melb that provide a pretty strong identification.
C. S. McCartney was 40 when the player finished his career - seems quite unlikely that he would be the player but I've been wrong before
- Jul 26, 2014
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Thanks - received - 100% convinced they are wrong about McCartney - have just added refs to his wikipedia page that make it really clear - he retired from International Harvester Co in 1940 (article states he had played football for Melbourne (should be South) and Essendon) and 1949 death notice says "late International Harvester Co."
How did you wish to handle this. Did you want to email Rodgers separately?
- Jul 26, 2014
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Corresponded with Steve Rodgers last night - he responded to say
"Thanks so much for that clarification. Yep, we'll make that amendment."
So - confirmed that player is as per wikipedia article Charles Patrick McCartney (or MacArtney) - SR is going to check DOB as he suspects the 26 Feb 1874 date might be for the wrong person (C. S. McCartney)
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Im assuming they missed all of this as I cant see the CPMcCartney discussion on the spreadsheet I sent back in 2019. So it probably predated the creation of the spreadsheet
- Jul 26, 2014
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Bert Ashby (Hawthorn) is listed as having a date of death of 24 August 1993
Cemetery records show this as being the cremation date with actual date of death being 21 August 1993
Summary: Date of death for Bert Ashby to be changed from 24 August 1993 to 21 August 1993.
Cemetery records show this as being the cremation date with actual date of death being 21 August 1993
Summary: Date of death for Bert Ashby to be changed from 24 August 1993 to 21 August 1993.
I just got this message from Michael Roberts (Collingwood FC historian): Just for the records, Terry Philippe has confirmed that his name is one L and two Ps - not the other way around. I have changed Forever accordingly …
Other sources have the spelling incorrect: Terry Phillipe | Wikiwand
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
That's how it should look!
Other sources have the spelling incorrect: Terry Phillipe | Wikiwand
Terry PHILIPPE
At first glance, Terry Philippe’s career seems to have had a familiar ark: a gun junior who was a prolific goalkicker in the lower grades, but who could never quite translate that into goals at senior level. But the reality of Terry’s footballing journey is much more complex than that.
forever.collingwoodfc.com.au
That's how it should look!
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After a bit of an investigation it was found the game's records had the wrong George Marsh playing for Collingwood in 1905.
He was believed to be this chap: George Marsh (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand
The player should be Mungo George Marsh (known as George) : George Marsh
Steve Rodgers from the AFL has approved this change, and (using his WWI record) made adjustments to the height and weight figures. Unfortunately, we don't have a DOB at this stage. Those war records say he was 31 years and 6 months old when he enlisted in July 1915, so some Ancestry trees have him being born January 1884, while others just have 1885:
He was believed to be this chap: George Marsh (Australian footballer) | Wikiwand
The player should be Mungo George Marsh (known as George) : George Marsh
Steve Rodgers from the AFL has approved this change, and (using his WWI record) made adjustments to the height and weight figures. Unfortunately, we don't have a DOB at this stage. Those war records say he was 31 years and 6 months old when he enlisted in July 1915, so some Ancestry trees have him being born January 1884, while others just have 1885:
Supermercado
The straw that stirs the drink
- Thread starter
- #2,999
AFL Tables and AustralianFootball have Lance Arnold of Melbourne wearing #29 from 1946 to 1954 - It should be #10.
Arnold debuted in R4, 1946 and AFL Tables is also showing Harry Rowe wearing #29 in Round 7 and Alf Copsey in R8. It's also got Arnold and Copsey playing in #29 in the same game.
The Grand Final Record shows him in #10.
Arnold debuted in R4, 1946 and AFL Tables is also showing Harry Rowe wearing #29 in Round 7 and Alf Copsey in R8. It's also got Arnold and Copsey playing in #29 in the same game.
The Grand Final Record shows him in #10.
Thanks Rhett, AF has been updated with the relevant changes and thanks for organising.
I just got this message from Michael Roberts (Collingwood FC historian): Just for the records, Terry Philippe has confirmed that his name is one L and two Ps - not the other way around. I have changed Forever accordingly …
Other sources have the spelling incorrect: Terry Phillipe | Wikiwand
View attachment 1445791Terry PHILIPPE
At first glance, Terry Philippe’s career seems to have had a familiar ark: a gun junior who was a prolific goalkicker in the lower grades, but who could never quite translate that into goals at senior level. But the reality of Terry’s footballing journey is much more complex than that.
That's how it should look!
Thanks, AF has been updated.
Thanks, AF has updated.