Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[35Daicos]

35Daicos
I missed these posts cause I normally just scan for the summary post at the end

So, I am submitting back to Stephen R that:
Harold Davidson North 1930 Harold Davidson (footballer) - Wikipedia
should now be Maurice Davidson b: 1904 Kew, d: 14 July 1970

11 July 1970 for the DOD. See WhiteHartLane's post up the page a little bit!

 

[rbartlett]

11 July 1970 for the DOD. See WhiteHartLane's post up the page a little bit!

okay , noted.

 

[Gibbsy]

AFL Reserves - Gardiner Medal

A history of the Gardiner Medal, awarded to the best & fairest in the AFL Reserves (includes the Murie Cup and Gordon-Dobson Medal)

www.hardballget.net

View attachment 1885686
Hopefully this might help, but maybe it's a bit confusing when looking at The Herald article?:
View attachment 1885684
Looks like this should be Flanigan: Wikiwand - Bob Flanigan (footballer):
View attachment 1885695
He played just 3 senior games in 1945.
View attachment 1885709
I imagine Smith must have taken second spot (from Flanigan) after a countback.
=============================================================================
View attachment 1885757
I'm almost certain this will be J. Morris.
View attachment 1885758
View attachment 1885767
View attachment 1885790

View attachment 1885759
View attachment 1885760

Jack Morris it is!:
View attachment 1885793
Jack Morris was still at South in 1940. This chap was a pennant/district cricketer, and it's very likely to be the same person:
View attachment 1885800
==========================================================
This puts four players in equal third position (1938), and that doesn't match what you have:
View attachment 1885806
That player is likely to be Haydn Sharp, a runner-up in 1939, who was at the club in 1938:
View attachment 1885812

Thanks mate, that’s very interesting! I haven’t gone back and had a look over any old Gardiner Medal stuff since the Herald has started going online either.

I haven’t spoken to Dave from HBG in a while but hopefully he is still following this thread

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks mate, that’s very interesting! I haven’t gone back and had a look over any old Gardiner Medal stuff since the Herald has started going online either.

I haven’t spoken to Dave from HBG in a while but hopefully he is still following this thread

Thanks. I think I added a couple of handy bits (one in the first section, one in the last) since you posted that, so it may be worth another look!

 

[rbartlett]

Rodgers is going to look over all the M Davidson info, and double check what the handwritten Campbell records say when they go back into the AF just to try and figure out why they H as the initial originally. Will then come back to us.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

The date of birth for Fred "Snowy" Davies (Fitzroy) is incorrect in football records

Current date of 9 January 1906 is date of birth for Frederick Griffith Davies who died on 6 Oct 1966 but he is not the footballer.

The footballer was Frederick Davies (no middle name), son of George Henry Davies (1886–1946) and Betsy Ellen Swan (1888–1984) who was born in Sydney on 12 March 1908 - this date matches better with his age when stated in news articles of him as a player (e.g. this article from 1927) and the parents on this 1908 birth record match the parents on the 16 Jun 1978 death record.

Summary: Date of birth change for Fred Davies from 9 Jan 1906 to 12 Mar 1908

 

[RedmanWasHere]

The date of birth for Fred "Snowy" Davies (Fitzroy) is incorrect in football records

Current date of 9 January 1906 is date of birth for Frederick Griffith Davies who died on 6 Oct 1966 but he is not the footballer.

The footballer was Frederick Davies (no middle name), son of George Henry Davies (1886–1946) and Betsy Ellen Swan (1888–1984) who was born in Sydney on 12 March 1908 - this date matches better with his age when stated in news articles of him as a player (e.g. this article from 1927) and the parents on this 1908 birth record match the parents on the 16 Jun 1978 death record.

Summary: Date of birth change for Fred Davies from 9 Jan 1906 to 12 Mar 1908

He lives to 72 years old yet his mum outlives him by 6 years.

 

[stemline]

Hey guys. I'm not sure of the appetite for Behind data corrections, but all references for the 1986 Round 4 game St Kilda v Hawthorn have Hawthorn's John Kennedy kicking 2 behinds and lookalike Colin Robertson kicking none.

The full game is here, and at around the 10 minute mark of the 1st qtr it's clear that Colin Robertson kicks a behind from a set shot.



I've been through the rest of the game and John Kennedy only kicks 1 behind (a couple of minutes before Robertson kicks his).

So for what it's worth - summary:

1986 R04, John Kennedy minus 1 behind, Colin Robertson plus 1 behind.

 

[Gibbsy]

In my mind if it’s a proven error and can be corrected with a primary source then that should be promoted through all records, no matter how trivial

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Ron Birch (Footscray) has no death date record in footy records however an Ancestry search shows he died in Qld back in 2009
Find a Grave has a photo of his grave showing date of death as 4 July 2009

 

[35Daicos]

In the 1963 Rd. 16 game vs. Melbourne, Collingwood's Des Steele scored a goal, but it was incorrectly recorded as having been scored by Trevor Steer. This was apparently corrected in the AFL's records some time back, but it needs to be changed on the likes of AustralianFootball.com and AFL Tables:

Australian Football - Match Details: 1963 R16 Melbourne vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com

AFL Tables - Melbourne v Collingwood - Sat, 24-Aug-1963 2:20 PM - Match Stats

It hasn't yet been changed on Collingwood Forever, but that will be done soon enough. What makes this rather strange is that the following week's Football Record had it right!:

The Age had it right from the start as well:


Oliver G
*Paul*

 

[rbartlett]

This might be James Mullaly/Mullally, the spelling of the surname changes between his birth and death:


View attachment 1846755


View attachment 1846753

Looks at this again with fresh eyes. I'm trying to identify birth/death details of James Mullaly/Mullally who played 1885-87 Richmond. Bandit55 post may be as close as we get to him.

I notice the death notice of the above Mullally says he was an old resident of Richmond, and council member, and that "he was an old member of the Melbourne Football Club". I can't see his details on demonwiki however.
His death age puts him at 27-30 during his playing time which would work out pretty well.
It wouldn't be uncommon for a council member to also play footy - we had Chris Syle, a Richmond councillor playing in 1885 as well.

 

[rbartlett]

Just for the record.
Of those players who played in Richmond's first ever game on May 2 1885 - we surprisingly know very little about just over half of them (those in bold)
(ie the minimum = a first name, dob or dod ). It's worth noting , although we dont have all their details, we do actually have headshots of almost all of them from a photocopy 1885 image that survives in our archives - meaning if we ever need to compare an image say found on ancestry or something, we can.

Thomas "Tom" Graham . 1885-86, 1890-91. Sth Melbourne 1883-1884. Went to Port Melbourne 1887. Came back from Port Melb to Richmond in 1890. Spent 3 months in prison for assault in 1893. Victim later died. Inquest determined it was not due to the injuries he sustained but from typhoid fever. But Graham's death date unknown atm

Just realised that because Thomas Graham was sent to Prison for the assault at the end of 1893 into 1894 - he would probably have a record in the Public Records Office under the Register of Male and Female Prisoners 1855-1948, which would give details most likely of his date of birth etc.

Register of Male and Female Prisoners (1855-1948) | PROV

prov.vic.gov.au

But damned if I can find his record in there.

I know ancestry often holds court records, police records etc , so if anyone has a login to Ancestry- do anything come up regarding Thomas Graham's assault of James Marshall in 1893. (Marshall would died early 1894 of , what they say , was typhoid fever.)

 

[GreyCrow]

rbartlett Ancestry only have Petty Sessions and Child Welfare cases

In Trove Tom was acquitted in October of a similar assault but used the provocation of spouse defence

A CHARGE OF MALICIOUS ASSAULT. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 17 Oct 1893

In the Richmond court yesterday, Thomas Graham, the popular ex-footballer, was prosecuted for an alleged malicious assault on a dairy farmer named Edward Dorey. Prosecutor, ...

nla.gov.au

 

[35Daicos]

Just realised that because Thomas Graham was sent to Prison for the assault at the end of 1893 into 1894 - he would probably have a record in the Public Records Office under the Register of Male and Female Prisoners 1855-1948, which would give details most likely of his date of birth etc.

Register of Male and Female Prisoners (1855-1948) | PROV

prov.vic.gov.au

But damned if I can find his record in there.

I know ancestry often holds court records, police records etc , so if anyone has a login to Ancestry- do anything come up regarding Thomas Graham's assault of James Marshall in 1893. (Marshall would died early 1894 of , what they say , was typhoid fever.)

I can't find it there either, so no idea what's going on with that! When he joined South Melbourne in 1883 he was from Richmond Juniors according to Pennings' Vol. 2, so it seems likely he was a local type. Richmond had a J. Graham in 1885, so I'm wondering if that was a sibling.

This is very likely to be him in 1893 at the Cremorne St. address:


There was a Thomas Graham at 96 Cremorne St. in 1890 (Sands & McDougall's).

We know he was married (at least by 1893), and finding out his wife's name would be handy, but at the moment he's proving very hard to track down.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Noel Webster (Hawthorn) has DOB 9 June 1932 and no DOD in football records

Someone (perhaps family?) has updated his Wikipedia page to show dob as 9 Dec 1931 and dod as 7 Feb 1992

These dates match those on grave of Noel Arnold Webster (according to SMCT site he was cremated on 12 Feb 1992)

Looking at news reports of the player this seems to be the correct man

• He kicked 114 goals for Hughesdale in 1950 (reports say he was a 17 year old but either dob would make him 18)
• Got picked up by Richmond in 1951 (permit was in name of N. A. Webster) and played 16 games for the reserves that year
• Moved to Hawthorn in 1952 and played 8 senior games
• Spent 1953 season in jail for car theft: see 26 Mar 1953 - "Bought Jaguar key in shop" Two brothers for trial over car thefts - Trove and They find ignition numbers... It's easy to lose your car - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 7 May 1953
• Cleared to Oakleigh in 1954 where he played for (at least) 2 years

I can’t find anything on Trove to confirm the birth date on the grave but think current dob is dubious.

Suggested change: Noel Webster DOB 9 Dec 1931 and add DOD of 7 Feb 1992

 

[GreyCrow]

I can't find it there either, so no idea what's going on with that! When he joined South Melbourne in 1883 he was from Richmond Juniors according to Pennings' Vol. 2, so it seems likely he was a local type. Richmond had a J. Graham in 1885, so I'm wondering if that was a sibling.
View attachment 1891436
This is very likely to be him in 1893 at the Cremorne St. address:
View attachment 1891458
View attachment 1891462
There was a Thomas Graham at 96 Cremorne St. in 1890 (Sands & McDougall's).

We know he was married (at least by 1893), and finding out his wife's name would be handy, but at the moment he's proving very hard to track down.

Not sure it means much but I found this where he is called Johnny in quotes

A SERIOUS ACCUSATION. - The Age (Melbourne, Vic. : 1854 - 1954) - 11 Dec 1893

The Richmond magistrates on Saturday authorised the issue of a warrant for the arrest of a young man named James Marshall, who is alleged to have been the victim of a brutal ...

nla.gov.au

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another Webster...
Eric Webster (Ess) has no death date in football records but he passed away on 27 Oct 2016 - as per Find a Grave and SMCT records
note: while some sources list him as Eric P. Webster his middle name was Donald (probably a D/P transcription issue)

Summary: Add date of death for Eric Webster of 27 Oct 2016

 

[stemline]

All references for the 1987 Round 11 game North Melbourne v Hawthorn have Hawthorn's John Platten kicking 2 behinds and Chris Wittman kicking none.

The full game is here, and at around the 23 minute mark of the 1st qtr it's clear that Chris Wittman kicks a behind from a snap.



I've been through the rest of the game and John Platten only kicks 1 behind.

Summary:

1987 R11 (NM v Haw), John Platten minus 1 behind, Chris Wittman plus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

Btw, just a thanks to everyone for doing the SUMMARY sentence once the research discussion is complete on a subject.
Because of Covid, the spreadsheet stopped around 2021, and so I've asked Rodgers to simply work off this forum thread and to look for the summary sentence to get an idea as to what the inaccuracy may be

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Bill Welsh (Geelong) has an incorrect death date of 11 Aug 1987.

This death date is for William George Welsh (born in Ballarat East in 1918 to George Linion Andrew WELSH

Andrew Welsh

Age

42

Ht

188cm

Wt

88kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

16.4

4star

K

9.7

4star

HB

6.7

4star

M

4.6

4star

T

2.9

4star

CL

1.6

4star

No current season stats available

D

9.6

3star

K

7.4

3star

HB

2.2

2star

M

4.0

4star

T

3.6

5star

and Martha Clara KISLER).
The footballer was William George Welsh (born in Berringa in 1908 to Percy Charles WELSH and Norah Ellen COTTER).

From Vic BDM the footballers death was registered the year before (in 1986) and there is an image of his tombstone at Geelong Western Cemetery on Find a Grave showing date of death was 12 Apr 1986.

Summary: Update death date for Bill Welsh (Geelong) to 12 Apr 1986

 

[rbartlett]

Summary
As per Stephen Rodgers email to me, Fred Wooller's date of birth 21 October 1937 not 21 October 1938 as per wikipedia

 

[Oliver G]

Hi all, apologies for the lack of corrections to AF of late, the last couple of months have been a bit busy outside football and I just could not find the time to get to them, but I'm now back into football mode and have just gone through the last few months posts and updated records on AF where needed. Looking forward to what is uncovered in 2024.

 

[stemline]

All references for the 1989 2nd Semi Final Hawthorn v Essendon have Hawthorn's Jason Dunstall kicking 3 behinds while 2 behinds are attributed as 'Rushed'.

The full game is here, and it's clear that Jason Dunstall kicks 4 behinds at the following timestamps of the below video -

0:05:35
0:45:20
1:24:00
2:01:25

(I'd make them links but it messily creates 4 videos)

All of them clear the behind line off his boot quite plainly. The first a snap, then 3 set shots.



I've been through the rest of the game and all other behinds correlate with existing records, but there's only 1 Rushed behind (Hawthorn's 14th of the game).

Summary:

1989 2SF (Haw v Ess), Jason Dunstall plus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (by Ess for Haw) minus 1 behind.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

All references for the 1989 2nd Semi Final Hawthorn v Essendon have Hawthorn's Jason Dunstall kicking 3 behinds while 2 behinds are attributed as 'Rushed'.

The full game is here, and it's clear that Jason Dunstall kicks 4 behinds at the following timestamps of the below video -

0:05:35
0:45:20
1:24:00
2:01:25

(I'd make them links but it messily creates 4 videos)

All of them clear the behind line off his boot quite plainly. The first a snap, then 3 set shots.



I've been through the rest of the game and all other behinds correlate with existing records, but there's only 1 Rushed behind (Hawthorn's 14th of the game).

Summary:

1989 2SF (Haw v Ess), Jason Dunstall plus 1 behind, 'Rushed' minus 1 behind.

*Paul*

This should have the Chief now at 1254-642.