Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[stemline]

This a slightly odd one -

All references for the 1989 Grand Final Hawthorn v Geelong have Hawthorn's Darrin Pritchard kicking 3 behinds while 1 behind is attributed as 'Rushed'.

Not only do I have a clear memory of him kicking 0.4, the commentators make mention of it when he is receiving his medal (2:26:50 on below video), and the Herald Sun stats in the paper the following day also gave him 0.4.

0:26:10
0:56:05
0:58:00
1:30:00



Rest of the behinds for both sides align.

Summary -

1989 GF (Haw v Geel), Darrin Pritchard plus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (by Geel for Haw) minus 1 behind.

 

[Oliver G]

This a slightly odd one -

All references for the 1989 Grand Final Hawthorn v Geelong have Hawthorn's Darrin Pritchard kicking 3 behinds while 1 behind is attributed as 'Rushed'.

Not only do I have a clear memory of him kicking 0.4, the commentators make mention of it when he is receiving his medal (2:26:50 on below video), and the Herald Sun stats in the paper the following day also gave him 0.4.

0:26:10
0:56:05
0:58:00
1:30:00



Rest of the behinds for both sides align.

Summary -

1989 GF (Haw v Geel), Darrin Pritchard plus 1 behind, 'Rushed' (by Geel for Haw) minus 1 behind.

Thanks for all your hard work in going back and checking these games, the number of stats discrepancies in matches before 1999 (when Champion Data got the licence) is becoming harder to ignore with each year and it's one of the reasons we've been trying to get the AFL and Champion Data to go back and redo matches where there is full vision available. They have done a few select matches over the years most notably grand finals and there are generally differences on every stat line.

The 1979 GF is one of those matches and the updated stats were in the Footy Record some years ago and you can see the differences here as AF has been updated while Tables have not...

Australian Football - Match Details: 1979 GF Carlton vs Collingwood

australianfootball.com

AFL Tables - Carlton v Collingwood - Sat, 29-Sep-1979 2:30 PM - Match Stats

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Les Bollman currently has death date 28 June 1955 however I could never find a matching death record for his birth.

Vic BDM shows deaths up to 30 years ago and I've just searched and found:


He has also been added to Find a Grave in the past couple of years - showing date of death was 11 January 1994

Summary: Death date for Leslie Bollman to be changed to 11 January 1994

 

[GreyCrow]

Les Bollman currently has death date 28 June 1955 however I could never find a matching death record for his birth.

Vic BDM shows deaths up to 30 years ago and I've just searched and found:
View attachment 1905062

He has also been added to Find a Grave in the past couple of years - showing date of death was 11 January 1994

Summary: Death date for Leslie Bollman to be changed to 11 January 1994

As an aside I will have to remember deaths going past 1990 now

 

[Gibbsy]

11 July 1970 for the DOD. See WhiteHartLane's post up the page a little bit!

Just FYI to everyone, I have updated Harold Davidson > Maurice (Morrie) Davidson on both Wikipedia and Australian Football (I help out Oliver G with a bit of database work on the latter, mostly local footy stuff).

Maurice has a birth notice (reg. number 12006/1904), so the exact date of birth is available for a price. I wish the league had a kitty we could dip into for this sort of stuff

 

[Gibbsy]

Les Bollman currently has death date 28 June 1955 however I could never find a matching death record for his birth.

Vic BDM shows deaths up to 30 years ago and I've just searched and found:
View attachment 1905062

He has also been added to Find a Grave in the past couple of years - showing date of death was 11 January 1994

Summary: Death date for Leslie Bollman to be changed to 11 January 1994

I have updated this on Wikipedia.

 

[Gibbsy]

Noel Webster (Hawthorn) has DOB 9 June 1932 and no DOD in football records

Someone (perhaps family?) has updated his Wikipedia page to show dob as 9 Dec 1931 and dod as 7 Feb 1992

These dates match those on grave of Noel Arnold Webster (according to SMCT site he was cremated on 12 Feb 1992)

Looking at news reports of the player this seems to be the correct man

• He kicked 114 goals for Hughesdale in 1950 (reports say he was a 17 year old but either dob would make him 18)
• Got picked up by Richmond in 1951 (permit was in name of N. A. Webster) and played 16 games for the reserves that year
• Moved to Hawthorn in 1952 and played 8 senior games
• Spent 1953 season in jail for car theft: see 26 Mar 1953 - "Bought Jaguar key in shop" Two brothers for trial over car thefts - Trove and They find ignition numbers... It's easy to lose your car - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 7 May 1953
• Cleared to Oakleigh in 1954 where he played for (at least) 2 years

I can’t find anything on Trove to confirm the birth date on the grave but think current dob is dubious.

Suggested change: Noel Webster DOB 9 Dec 1931 and add DOD of 7 Feb 1992

This is now updated on Wikipedia too.

 

[Bandit55]

South's Reg Harley's correct full name is Robert John Harley:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/harley-robert-john-reg/4591596/

His wikipage has his original team as Norwood, however, it was Williamstown VFA as outlined in his AF profile. He does appear in the list of Norwood SANFL players.

Summary: Update 'Reg' Harley's full name to Robert John Harley and list his original team as Williamstown.

 

[Gibbsy]

Have spent the last two and a half hours or so led down a rabbit-hole by a seemingly innocuous sentence on an otherwise bare Wikipedia article. I'm looking at Jerry McAuliffe, he of Hawthorn fame, who played 10 games for the Mayblooms in 1934. He is listed as being originally from Claremont-Cottesloe, so it surprised me that he would travel from Western Australia (pre-1934) to Victoria (1934) and then – according to this note – to Leeton in NSW to captain-coach a premiership in 1935.

The Leeton article spoke of a J. A. McAuliffe, which got me searching BDMs across the country to try and find something that matched up with the listed birth/death years of 1910 and 1959 respectively. John Augustine McAuliffe of Leeton died in 1959 (NSW BDM reg. 14385/1959), so I had considered that. However, an Ancestry search also brought up plenty for John Alfred McAuliffe, who was born in 1910 in Macarthur (Vic BDM reg. 28705/1910), got married in Barellan (near Leeton) to Mavis Jamieson in 1937, and died tragically in a shotgun accident at Stony Point on 26 May 1940. One point to note is that the article on his death said he was 28 years of age – which doesn't exactly link up with a 1910 birth year (although the paper is every chance of being wrong). John Alfred's father, also called John (middle name Garrard) died in 1935 in Leeton, which adds to the confusion.

I was beginning to think that neither of those J. A. McAuliffes are our Jerry though. Here is an article from April 1934 on McAuliffe coming across from Western Australia to train with Collingwood. He would debut for Hawthorn in late May 1934 and play 10 weeks consecutively before retiring in late August to focus on his medical studies. The article also says McAuliffe – who they refer to as Jack McAuliffe, not Jerry – had been in Victoria for three years. To cross-check and confirm we have the right guy who played for Claremont-Cottesloe and Hawthorn, this article lists J. McAuliffe being granted a clearance to Victoria from C-C, and this article also describes that same clearance, but lists him as J. A. McAuliffe (there are those initials again!) Interestingly, both of the clearance articles are from April 1934 – is it possible that Jack (is he still Jerry?) McAuliffe moved to Victoria in 1931 and didn't bother applying for a clearance until he decided to pick up playing footy again?

I ran some more searches for "McAuliffe" and "Claremont" in the 1930s. 1938: Wedding bells! And it is... John Augustine McAuliffe, the first J. A. I came across! John married Ethel Dempsey in Melbourne in January 1938, where the article says the pair will make their life in Leeton. Do we know if that is Jack McAuliffe the Claremont/Hawthorn footballer though? Maybe not. Why? Because further down the article, a "Dr. J. McAuliffe of Melbourne was best man". We know that Jack retired from footy at the end of 1934 to pursue his medical studies. Did he become a doctor in the years between his retirement and his friend (or relative? or himself?) John Augustine getting married? As for John Augustine McAuliffe, he was born in Kalgoorlie in 1909 (WA BDM reg. 1800384), which puts him very close in age to the Jack/Jerry McAuliffe we are trying to chase down (supposedly born in 1910).

Time to search up "McAuliffe" and "Leeton" and go hunting for more answers. Boom – 1959, a probate jurisdiction re: the estate of John Augustine McAuliffe, late of Leeton, dental practitioner, deceased, interstate. Date of death given as 4 May 1959, which is the same date listed in the league's records for Jerry McAuliffe, the man who I have been trying to find all along. According to electoral rolls, John Augustine was in Leeton from approximately 1937–1958, which links up around the times of his wedding and death.

More confusing stuff – there is another John Augustine McAuliffe, who also died in 1959, less than a month before the guy who we think we are searching for, which makes for another possibly confusing red herring. However, we can rule him out as he was born in 1891 (Qld BDM reg. 1891/C/7025) and lived his entire life in Queensland.

There is precious little of John Augustine McAuliffe, the dentist who died in Leeton in 1959, on Ancestry. He is only found in 4 trees – the first listing gives his birth year (I believe incorrectly) as 1910 and provides no other info. The second and third listings both include his marriage in Victoria to Ethel Dempsey and his death in New South Wales, but provide nothing of his birth. Yet finally... the last listing... in a tree of just 2(!) people, John Augustine McAuliffe is listed as being born on 30 August 1909 in Perth, WA. There is no other data, but it is seemingly all we need. While Kalgoorlie (as listed on the WA BDM record) is certainly a decent hop from Perth, we can ascertain this is the same guy.

So, after all those runarounds...

Suggested change: Change of name from Jerry McAuliffe to Jack McAuliffe. Change of date of birth to 30 August 1909 (previously listed as 27 August 1910). Addition of full name John Augustine McAuliffe.

Can anyone else run their eyes over this and see if it checks out? Or if I did things the hard way? Cheers.

 

[Gibbsy]

Apologies if the above post is a little hard to follow. I'll try and make like 35Daicos now and include screenshots where I can!
Here's one where we haven't quite got the real McCoy...

John "Jack" McCoy, who played 9 games for St Kilda in 1934 and 1935, is listed as being born in Collingwood on 30 November 1910 and dying in Moe on 1 April 1976.

Vic BDM death search confirms the 1976 death, but gives his age at death as 64, not 65.



"Melbourne" is a little less specific for the place of birth, so I checked McCoy births around 1910 to see if I could find the right match.



Looks like John McCoy born in 1911 is our guy, as the mother and father's name match, and it gives Collingwood as the place of birth.

Now, John did serve in the Australian Army as well, and it looked like there might have been age forgery in the process, as McCoy is listed as being born on 30 November 1912 in the Army records. Why would he try and appear younger? Would he have needed to be under 30 to be assigned to a certain task?



It looks like of the many family trees containing John McCoy on Ancestry, that there is also some confusion over his birth year.



However, both of these appear to have hit the nail on the head, with a birth date of 30 November 1911 in Collingwood.



But where does Tim come from? Isn't he meant to be Jack? Not so fast. I think John > Jack must have just been a simple assumption on behalf of the league's old record keepers.

Here's an article from the Herald in 1936:



And another from the Yallourn Live Wire in 1939 that confirms Tim as a nickname:




So... of course, best for someone else to peer review my work here, but:

Suggested change: Change of name from Jack McCoy to Tim McCoy (birth name John McCoy). Change of date of birth to 30 November 1911 (previously listed as 30 November 1910).

 

[Gibbsy]

South's Reg Harley's correct full name is Robert John Harley:

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/tributes/notice/death-notices/harley-robert-john-reg/4591596/

His wikipage has his original team as Norwood, however, it was Williamstown VFA as outlined in his AF profile. He does appear in the list of Norwood SANFL players.

Summary: Update 'Reg' Harley's full name to Robert John Harley and list his original team as Williamstown.

Nice pickup. I've added his full name to Wikipedia and AF, and corrected his WP infobox to include his time at Williamstown. His 'original team' is not Williamstown as such though – there is a rule on WP that such team cannot be a state league equivalent or higher club (they had to have come from somewhere beforehand).

A quick bit of Trove research has turned up that Harley was recruited from Spotswood, not Norwood. One can see how the error could have been made!

 

[35Daicos]

Apologies if the above post is a little hard to follow. I'll try and make like 35Daicos now and include screenshots where I can!
Here's one where we haven't quite got the real McCoy...

John "Jack" McCoy, who played 9 games for St Kilda in 1934 and 1935, is listed as being born in Collingwood on 30 November 1910 and dying in Moe on 1 April 1976.

Vic BDM death search confirms the 1976 death, but gives his age at death as 64, not 65.

View attachment 1908445

"Melbourne" is a little less specific for the place of birth, so I checked McCoy births around 1910 to see if I could find the right match.

View attachment 1908447

Looks like John McCoy born in 1911 is our guy, as the mother and father's name match, and it gives Collingwood as the place of birth.

Now, John did serve in the Australian Army as well, and it looked like there might have been age forgery in the process, as McCoy is listed as being born on 30 November 1912 in the Army records. Why would he try and appear younger? Would he have needed to be under 30 to be assigned to a certain task?

View attachment 1908452

It looks like of the many family trees containing John McCoy on Ancestry, that there is also some confusion over his birth year.

View attachment 1908455

However, both of these appear to have hit the nail on the head, with a birth date of 30 November 1911 in Collingwood.

View attachment 1908456

But where does Tim come from? Isn't he meant to be Jack? Not so fast. I think John > Jack must have just been a simple assumption on behalf of the league's old record keepers.

Here's an article from the Herald in 1936:

View attachment 1908457

And another from the Yallourn Live Wire in 1939 that confirms Tim as a nickname:

View attachment 1908458


So... of course, best for someone else to peer review my work here, but:

Suggested change: Change of name from Jack McCoy to Tim McCoy (birth name John McCoy). Change of date of birth to 30 November 1911 (previously listed as 30 November 1910).

Now that's funny! But a handsome looking post, for sure!! This is a bit of a concern:







There was a well known American actor named Tim McCoy around at that time, and I suspect because of him that Tim was another nickname the footballer was known by, but it does seem certain he was also known as Jack. He played Reserves for Collingwood and we have him as Jack.

 

[Gibbsy]

Now that's funny! But a handsome looking post, for sure!! This is a bit of a concern:
View attachment 1908464

View attachment 1908471
View attachment 1908472

View attachment 1908475

There was a well known American actor named Tim McCoy around at that time, and I suspect because of him that Tim was another nickname the footballer was known by, but it does seem certain he was also known as Jack. He played Reserves for Collingwood and we have him as Jack.

Good pickup, I was only hunting around in the 1930s, not prior. Could you make the case that he was best known as Tim, therefore that's the name he should be listed as in league records? Jack is as much a nickname as Tim is, given neither were his birth name.

It seems a similar case to another person I stumbled across earlier today, Jack "Roy" Zander, who was also born John, but was probably called by both Jack and Roy in equal measure across his league and suburban career.

 

[Gibbsy]

There really is a lot of inaccuracies under the surface when you dig through old records. But that's the fun part.

Stewart Anderson, a defender/utility from Hamilton that played three seasons at St Kilda in the 1930s and a further two with North Melbourne later that decade, winning their leading goalkicker award in 1937. He's on my investigation list purely by way of A) being a stub WP article, and B) not having any middle name(s) listed.

His date of birth is currently listed as 7 June 1911, and date of death is 4 June 1997.

First check as the death is in the past 30 years (hence no Vic BDM) is Ryerson, which turns up a Robert Stewart Anderson. Good start as I was assuming Stewart may have been his middle name. The death date also matches.



However, a check of Vic BDM for 1911 births doesn't give me what I'm after. After doing some hunting for Robert Stewart through Google, I found a record of his enlistment in the Australian Army (obviously very common for a lot of people born around this time). The birth day and month of 7 June match, but not the birth year, which is 1915 instead of 1911.



I double-checked that with Vic BDM to make sure there was no date forgery or funny business. All good: Robert Stewart Anderson lived from 1915–1997.



But I don't think he's our guy. This Weekly Times article from September 1932 remarked how Stewart Anderson of Hamilton had been playing some great footy, and had given excellent service for the club "for several seasons". If he were to be barely 17 going by Robert Stewart's birth year, then it is improbable – but not impossible – that he could be playing high-quality senior football for numerous seasons.



I was trying to find clearance records from when Anderson moved from Hamilton to St Kilda, hoping for an initial or two, and happened upon this listing of a G. Stewart Anderson playing for Hamilton in June 1931.



In going back to Vic BDM to search again for Stewart Anderson-adjacent births around that 1911 mark, I came across Glen Stewart Anderson, born in Ascot Vale in 1910. This links up a lot better with Anderson having played several seasons of good footy in Hamilton by late 1932, assuming he debuted as, say, an 18-year-old.



Googling that name, I found a listing on Find-a-Grave detailing how Glen Stewart Anderson died on 7 August 1962 and is buried in Fawkner – a long way out from our initial 1997 death date. The mother and father listings also link up.



And it cross-checks just fine on Vic BDM too, telling us that he passed away in Brunswick.



Following a search on Ancestry, I think this has to be our guy – listed in a tree of footballers, it even turned up a photo!





Still no luck on finding the exact date of birth though.



After a further 90 minutes of trying in vain to find the exact birth date, I even decided to sign up for the 14-day free trial on Ancestry, but it appears like none of the trees have an exact date listed



Is the below as much as we're going to get without ponying up for the birth certificate? Feels like we're so close to getting the final piece of the puzzle sorted.



In summary:
Update name from Stewart Anderson to Glen Stewart Anderson
Partial change DOB from 7 June 1911 to (TBC) (TBC) 1910
Change DOD from 4 June 1997 to 7 August 1962

 

[35Daicos]

Good pickup, I was only hunting around in the 1930s, not prior. Could you make the case that he was best known as Tim, therefore that's the name he should be listed as in league records? Jack is as much a nickname as Tim is, given neither were his birth name.

It seems a similar case to another person I stumbled across earlier today, Jack "Roy" Zander, who was also born John, but was probably called by both Jack and Roy in equal measure across his league and suburban career.

There seems to be no doubt that he ended up being better known as Tim McCoy by the time he played for St Kilda (it's possible the other nickname had been completely dropped by that time), and after that. So you could make a decent case for him to be renamed in the game's records. I just wonder however as to whether or not the AFL chaps would be interested in making such a change, given it would only involve swapping from one nickname to another. They might (be interested), but I have my doubts!

 

[35Daicos]

Just FYI to everyone, I have updated Harold Davidson > Maurice (Morrie) Davidson on both Wikipedia and Australian Football (I help out Oliver G with a bit of database work on the latter, mostly local footy stuff).

Maurice has a birth notice (reg. number 12006/1904), so the exact date of birth is available for a price. I wish the league had a kitty we could dip into for this sort of stuff

Excellent work! This is a case where the league should be prepared to fork out the money to finalise things with this "new" player. They surely must be able to do a reasonable amount of spending on such things.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

There really is a lot of inaccuracies under the surface when you dig through old records. But that's the fun part...

Following a search on Ancestry, I think this has to be our guy – listed in a tree of footballers, it even turned up a photo!

View attachment 1908796

I see you found my Ancestry research tree - Glen Stewart Anderson was the footballer in my view but can find nothing to pinpoint exact DOB

My current list of likely misidentified players (some of which haven't been raised here so far but some have): Stewart Anderson, Pat Bourke, Dave Bowen, Harold Davidson (now Morrie), Jim Fagan, John Gunter, Gerald Johnston, Alec Mawhinney, Angus McDonald, Wally Mitchell, Harry Morgan, Tommy Peterson, Gerald Ryan, George St John, Bill Taylor, Billy Williams, Harry Wilson

Feel free to verify/challenge any of them in the list - unless I have already posted in this thread about them these are players I have identified as problematic but have no clear "solution".

 

[rbartlett]

I see you found my Ancestry research tree - Glen Stewart Anderson was the footballer in my view but can find nothing to pinpoint exact DOB

My current list of likely misidentified players (some of which haven't been raised here so far but some have): Stewart Anderson, Pat Bourke, Dave Bowen, Harold Davidson (now Morrie), Jim Fagan, John Gunter, Gerald Johnston, Alec Mawhinney, Angus McDonald, Wally Mitchell, Harry Morgan, Tommy Peterson, Gerald Ryan, George St John, Bill Taylor, Billy Williams, Harry Wilson

Feel free to verify/challenge any of them in the list - unless I have already posted in this thread about them these are players I have identified as problematic but have no clear "solution".

Not sure you've raised the George St. John query - but as he is a Richmond player I'm interested in what isnt matching up.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Not sure you've raised the George St. John query - but as he is a Richmond player I'm interested in what isnt matching up.

He came from Port Melb and played cricket... from this article PERSONAL ITEMS - Record (Emerald Hill, Vic. : 1881 - 1954) - 13 May 1939 he was alive in 1939 but the current guy died in 1934 - I have a note "likely Ronald George Williams St John (1889 - 1965)"

 

[Gibbsy]

Excellent work! This is a case where the league should be prepared to fork out the money to finalise things with this "new" player. They surely must be able to do a reasonable amount of spending on such things.

$22 per certificate is loose change down the back of the couch for the league. It is whether they have the appetite to do it.

So right now we are shaking the tin for Maurice Davidson (1904) and Glen Stewart Anderson (1910).

I see you found my Ancestry research tree - Glen Stewart Anderson was the footballer in my view but can find nothing to pinpoint exact DOB

My current list of likely misidentified players (some of which haven't been raised here so far but some have): Stewart Anderson, Pat Bourke, Dave Bowen, Harold Davidson (now Morrie), Jim Fagan, John Gunter, Gerald Johnston, Alec Mawhinney, Angus McDonald, Wally Mitchell, Harry Morgan, Tommy Peterson, Gerald Ryan, George St John, Bill Taylor, Billy Williams, Harry Wilson

Feel free to verify/challenge any of them in the list - unless I have already posted in this thread about them these are players I have identified as problematic but have no clear "solution".

If anyone wants a quick challenge before bed, I've been having a bit of trouble verifying Jack Cleary. Looks you have been doing the same already WHL as I just saw him in that same tree of yours!

Do you agree that John Joseph Cleary is the man? There is some conflicting data so while I am more confident on the DOB I am less confident on the DOD.



Some trees have the February date currently in the league's records, while other (including yours) list the 18 April date which can also be found on Find a Grave.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

$22 per certificate is loose change down the back of the couch for the league. It is whether they have the appetite to do it.

So right now we are shaking the tin for Maurice Davidson (1904) and Glen Stewart Anderson (1910).

If anyone wants a quick challenge before bed, I've been having a bit of trouble verifying Jack Cleary. Looks you have been doing the same already WHL as I just saw him in that same tree of yours!

Do you agree that John Joseph Cleary is the man? There is some conflicting data so while I am more confident on the DOB I am less confident on the DOD.

Some trees have the February date currently in the league's records, while other (including yours) list the 18 April date which can also be found on Find a Grave.

Agree John Joseph Cleary is the man and current DOB is correct (or at least I see no reason why he would be incorrect).
My notes say "DOD appears incorrect but 18 Apr 1995 is interment date - possibly 14 Apr 1995 DOD - need evidence"

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Agree John Joseph Cleary is the man and current DOB is correct (or at least I see no reason why he would be incorrect).
My notes say "DOD appears incorrect but 18 Apr 1995 is interment date - possibly 14 Apr 1995 DOD - need evidence"

Just spent a few minutes digging and cemetery has image of headstone - 14 Feb 1995 death is correct for Jack Cleary - something unusual must have happened to delay his burial by a couple of months

 

[Gibbsy]

Just spent a few minutes digging and cemetery has image of headstone - 14 Feb 1995 death is correct for Jack Cleary - something unusual must have happened to delay his burial by a couple of months

Thanks, that's super helpful. I had seen that website before; their search engine was no good to me! Even trying again this morning I couldn't find a result. Can you share a screenshot here? Cheers.

 

[GreyCrow]

Thanks, that's super helpful. I had seen that website before; their search engine was no good to me! Even trying again this morning I couldn't find a result. Can you share a screenshot here? Cheers.

There is an option in the search box to click through different cemeteries

 

[Gibbsy]

There is an option in the search box to click through different cemeteries

View attachment 1908978

View attachment 1908980

Thank you! I had the location right, but obviously it wasn't returning me anything because I was entering data in fields for DOB / DOD (which I wasn't aware they didn't have listed). Found it, cheers