Resource List thread - Inaccuracy in official records

[Gibbsy]

I went to go and make the changes on Wikipedia now and there are a few 'hidden' cases on there which can only be seen when in edit mode.

WIKIPEDIA 'HIDDEN' CASES (not on AFL master list)

• David Flood - Ess - R8, 1986
• Daryl Griffiths - StK - R9, 1963
• Tim O'Brien - Haw - R1, 2014 (confirmed in this article)
• Kayne Turner - NM - R20, 2014
• Wayde Twomey - Carl - R17, 2011

I get the feeling this hidden cases were hidden because they didn't exist in the 2019 AFL SG list and weren't yet individually referenced on Wikipedia. I'll have to see if I can dig up anything for Flood and Griffiths.

EDIT: Okay I found the note in the Wiki backend. It said "<!--Seven players that did not appear in the 2019 AFL Record Season Guide, despite debuting before the text was published, have temporarily been commented out until a suitable source can be located. See talk for further details.-->"

I've unhidden O'Brien, kept Flood and Griffiths hidden for now, and deleted Turner (second kick per this HS article) and Twomey (at least his second kick – Quartermain says 'first kick' in the clip of him kicking a goal, but he actually gets a kick in the back pocket with ~9:10 left in Q1).

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks mate. That's extremely helpful. I've crosschecked the Wikipedia list and the AFL's list above, with the following results...

WIKIPEDIA MISSING:

• Callum Brown - GWS - R21, 2021
• Chris Burgess - GC - R1, 2019
• Ian George - StK - R8, 1973
• Max King - StK - R1, 2020
• Brendan Littler - StK - R20, 1986
• Ryan Maric - WCE - R13, 2023
• Nathan O'Driscoll - Frem - R2, 2022
• Arthur Pound - Melb - R8, 1950
• Josh Rachele - Adel - R1, 2022
• Cooper Sharman - StK - R20, 2021
• Tom Sparrow - Melb - R1, 2019

The Wikipedia list is largely sourced from the 2019 AFL Season Guide, with entries from that point on being individually/manually sourced. That would explain the eight post-2018 mising entries, presuming that none of the regular editors noticed those particular instances take place. My assumptions with George (1973) and Littler (1986) is that, much like Pound (1950), these were historic cases discovered by the AFL and added to their master list in the last few years. I will add these to the Wiki list before the night is out.


AFL SEASON GUIDE MISSING:

• Ryan Burton - Haw - R21, 2016
• Tom Doedee - Ade - R1, 2018
• Sam Jones - StK - R10, 1994
• Irving Mosquito - Ess - R13, 2020
• Kevin Webb - Melb - R12, 1951
• Samson Ryan - Rich - R2, 2023 is listed, but should have both a # (for being kickless in his first game) and a *** (for kicking three goals with his first three kicks)

The missing cases from the AFL's master list are a little less easier to understand. Burton's case is sourced here; for my sins I watched the first quarter up until his goal to confirm that was the case.

The Mosquito goal is also a confirmed missing case:

View attachment 1966693
The Doedee one, however, is a clear mistake on Wiki's behalf – maybe it was in the 2018 AFL SG list, I'm not sure – but considering he didn't kick his first goal until Round 15, and he debuted in Round 1 (which is the game the listing gives), it's an obvious error, and therefore is correct to be missing from the AFL's list.

The cases of Jones (1994) and Webb (1951) I am less sure on.

Jones certainly seems plausible. There's no video footage of his goal in this short highlights package, but St Kilda's first two goals came in the second quarter, and Jones' first kick also came in the second quarter.

View attachment 1966719

View attachment 1966720

I am assuming that while Webb's goal may have been his first kicked in league football – and it was his first game for the Dees – he had previously played 7 games for Richmond in 1949, and it's unlikely he went kickless in all seven. Does this link up with your understanding Supermercado ?

Doedee is on the 2019 Season Guide list. Kevin Webb is the other one who's there out of those (6) you've named.

 

[Gibbsy]

Doedee is on the 2019 Season Guide list. Kevin Webb is the other one who's there out of those (6) you've named.

Thanks mate. Doedee is an obvious error which is why it was removed, Webb I'm not so sure about.

 

[35Daicos]

Thanks mate. Doedee is an obvious error which is why it was removed, Webb I'm not so sure about.

I checked last year's book, and those two were still there, so they've only just removed them from the list. The Kevin Webb issue was raised on here about a year ago, and checking through old emails I can see that I let the editor of the Season Guide know about it. This is what Steve Rodgers had to say in an email:

That all sounds very reasonable to me, and he just shouldn't have been on the list in the first place.

 

[Supermercado]

Another for the 'exclusive club' avalanche, Danny Hughes, R1 1984. Seems likely from this clip that he didn't have another kick in the first 40 seconds.

 

[Gibbsy]

We can now add Footscray captain & team of the century member Harry Hickey to the first kick/first goal club.

 

[rbartlett]

Here's my evidence that we could consider adding Vin Crowe (Richmond) to 'goal with first kick'
Rd 17 1964 Richmond v Geelong.

Sporting Globe:
View attachment 1966744View attachment 1966745

Thoughts?

Summary: I'll let Stephen Rodgers decide if he accepts this as a first kick/goal addition, once he gets up to this page during his review
Vin Crowe - Richmond

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Just stumbled upon this.

 

[Gibbsy]

I can't remember which thread I saw this in on BF (if at all) but thought I would repost it here. Well done to those involved, including our very own 35Daicos.

Collingwood discovers its 62nd ANZAC

Ten years ago, official records showed that the Club had 57 players who served in the First World War. Ongoing research since then had lifted that number to 61 by last year, as more information came to light on long-forgotten links with a small number of former soldiers.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Checking out the Wikipedia edit history for "Mungo", his full name was updated/corrected by WhiteHartLane23 back in December 2022. Did it really take 16 months for the club to ratify the change?! Or did it just happen some time after the conclusion of the 2023 Anzac Day match and they wanted to hold off until now?

I can appreciate if not all of that information can be shared, but I went into the article thinking this was a relatively recent discovery, not from 2022 (which is ancient history when we're talking discoveries on this board!)

 

[35Daicos]

I can't remember which thread I saw this in on BF (if at all) but thought I would repost it here. Well done to those involved, including our very own 35Daicos.

Collingwood discovers its 62nd ANZAC

Ten years ago, official records showed that the Club had 57 players who served in the First World War. Ongoing research since then had lifted that number to 61 by last year, as more information came to light on long-forgotten links with a small number of former soldiers.

www.collingwoodfc.com.au

Checking out the Wikipedia edit history for "Mungo", his full name was updated/corrected by WhiteHartLane23 back in December 2022. Did it really take 16 months for the club to ratify the change?! Or did it just happen some time after the conclusion of the 2023 Anzac Day match and they wanted to hold off until now?

I can appreciate if not all of that information can be shared, but I went into the article thinking this was a relatively recent discovery, not from 2022 (which is ancient history when we're talking discoveries on this board!)

Thanks for that! The news on the changed identity for George Marsh was posted back in July 2022. It was pointed out that Steve Rodgers from the AFL had approved the change, and Collingwood's records would have been amended at that time. It wasn't until a few months later that we got hold of a copy of the birth certificate, and I posted about that as well. It would have been after that the changes were made on Wikipedia.

 

[35Daicos]

Speaking of Collingwood players with a Queensland/rugby connection (which George Marsh sort of has), the Wikipedia page of Duncan McIvor has this to say!:

Michael Morgan (rugby league, born 1991) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

This^ links to the page of the Collingwood footballer. A Duncan McIvor from Townsville was a star player in that sport back in the day:


Wrong Duncan McIvor!! There's nothing to suggest the Collingwood man had any kind of a 'Queensland connection', and especially as he played his last game for the club in 1914 it's rather fanciful to think he'd be starring at rugby league in another state in 1915! He died aged just 46, and was unmarried, so he also shouldn't be the great-grandfather of anyone!!:


If someone could fix those bits on Wikipedia it would be much appreciated.

 

[stemline]

1986 2nd SF Behind Correction -

All records have Hawthorn's Ken Judge credited with one behind, and Richard Loveridge none.

Loveridge kicks 1 per below video, Judge doesn't kick any.



Summary -
1986 2nd SF Haw v Carl - Richard Loveridge plus 1 behind, Ken Judge minus 1 behind.

 

[rbartlett]

These are the missing first names of Richmond Reserves Players from 1998-2000.
Some we have an idea of, but I'm putting it out there for anyone to put in their two cents worth


Edit:
I've sent email off to Andrew Dimattina, so he should be able to tell me which brother it was
We believe McGhie may be Lucas McGhie who was around the clubs at that stage - son of Robbie

2000 Richmond Reserve players (some may be top-ups)
BAGLEY
ANDREWS
BENNETT
BETTRIDGE
BEVAN
CAMPBELL
CLOKE
DUIKER (is this perhaps a spelling mistake)
EBERT
GOLDSWORTHY (may be scott)
GREEN
HABEL
HOLCOMBE (is it Luke, or Chris)
JACKSON
JOYCE
MCGHIE (we believe one of Robbie's sons)
MORRISON (may be jarrad morison from 1998 richmond reserves)
MURPHY
REYNOLDS
C. WHITE

1999 Richmond Reserve players (some may be top-ups)
HAYES

1998 Richmond Reserve players (some may be top-ups)
BRADSHAW
CORCORAN (maybe Andrew or Shane?)

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

re: Duncan McIvor
If someone could fix those bits on Wikipedia it would be much appreciated.

Sorted

 

[35Daicos]

Sorted

Thanks a lot.

 

[stemline]

1986 R12 Carl v Haw Behinds Correction

For Carlton -

All online references have Wayne Blackwell kicking 1 behind and Jim Buckley 1 behind.

Per below video, Blackwell kicks 2. Buckley doesn't kick any behinds in this game.

For Hawthorn -

All online references have Rodney Eade kicking 1 behind and Terry Wallace kicking none.

Per below video, Wallace kicks 1 behind. Eade doesn't kick any behinds in this game.



Summary -

1986 Rnd 12 Carl v Haw - Wayne Blackwell plus 1 behind; Jim Buckley minus 1 behind; Terry Wallace plus 1 behind; Rodney Eade minus 1 behind.

 

[the croucher]

Earlier this year I posted on page 136 of this thread some starting time changes for some matches in 1907,
but just realised I hadn't put the summary tag at the end

https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/list-thread-inaccuracy-in-official-records.1089761/page-136

Have now discovered that the 1907 Grand Final start time also needs amending, often shown as 2.50pm, it should be 3.00pm. For example, this note in The Argus "the league final commences at 3 o'clock."

FOOTBALL. - THE LEAGUE FINAL. - The Argus (Melbourne, Vic. : 1848 - 1957) - 21 Sep 1907

In the event of Carlton beating South Melbourne this afternoon the league premiership for this season will be brought to an end. Should South Melbourne win, Carlton have the right to another ...

trove.nla.gov.au

Summary: 1907 Grand Final start time to be amended from 2.50 to 3.00

 

[stemline]

1986 R13 Haw v NM behinds correction -

For Hawthorn -

All references have Terry Wallace kicking no behinds, and 3 Rushed behinds included in Hawthorn's score. Per below vid, Wallace kicks 1 behind. All other player's behind tallies align, and there are 2 Rushed behinds for Hawthorn.

For North Melb -

All references have Peter Jonas kicking 1 behind and Donald McDonald kicking 1 behind. Per below vid, Jonas kicks 2 behinds. McDonald does not kick a behind in this game. All other scores align.



Summary -

1983 Rnd 13 Haw v NM - Terry Wallace plus 1 behind, 'Rushed for Haw by NM' minus 1 behind; Peter Jonas plus 1 behind, Donald McDonald minus 1 behind.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Have been cross-checking DOBs against WAFL Footy Facts and DOB for Clinton Browning (East Freo, West Coast) is incorrect in wiki/af.com/AFL Tables due to a US/Aus date format issue.
Currently recorded date of birth is 7 March 1962 but wafl.com, WAFL Footy Facts and East Freo annual report (see p40) show correct DOB is 3 July 1962.

Summary: DOB of Clinton Browning to be updated to 3 July 1962
*Paul*, Oliver G - FYI

 

[stemline]

St Kilda Qtr x Qtr score correction - 1986 Rnd 15 Haw v StK

All online (and historical paper-based) references have St Kilda's (QT, HT, 3QT and Full Time) scores for this game as -

2.5 17
4.5 29
4.5 29
5.8 38

I've uploaded the first 50-odd minutes below.

St Kilda score 2.4 in the first quarter, and 2.1 in the second qtr.

(Not 2.5 and 2.0)

There seems to be a moment early on where a phantom point is added to St Kilda's score by the amateur commentators and perhaps the scoreboard at the ground, before being removed early in the 2nd qtr. One commentator makes mention of the scoreboard being wrong early on, when St Kilda kick their 2nd behind (at 4:20), before adopting the additional score shortly after.

The commentators don't help by misreading both scores several times throughout. As well as getting tons of players' names wrong.

But from watching the vision it is very clear St Kilda only kick 4 behinds in the 1st qtr, and then one behind is added by Narkle in the 2nd qtr near the end of the video.



First quarter behinds for St Kilda -
04:20 Leowe behind
04:45 Grant behind, depsite what the commentator says
12:50 Lockett behind
20:50 Locket behind

No other behinds are scored for St Kilda until Narkle scores one in the SECOND QTR at 51:00, taking them to their half time score of 4.5 29.

Summary -

1986 Rnd 15 Haw v StK - Change St Kilda's quarter-time score from 2.5 17 to 2.4 16.

All other qtr scores remain as they are.

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another apparent DOB error from WAFL cross-checks
Brendan Lee

Brendan Lee

Age

36

Ht

181cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.5

5star

M

4.5

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

18.0

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.5

5star

M

4.5

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.5

5star

(Ess) - played one game in 2012 after playing for East Perth.
All AFL related sites I can see have DOB as 9 September 1987 however WAFL records have 24 September 1987.
When I went back to look at Footy Record for the game he played he was listed with DOB 24 September 1987.

I suspect that this might be correct in AFL records and that the error in online footy sources might come from the Encyclopedia of AFL Footballers as all editions I have list 9 Sep as DOB? Given AFL Footy Record and WAFL sources both have 24 Sep it seems very likely this is the correct date.

Summary: Brendan Lee

Brendan Lee

Age

36

Ht

181cm

Wt

78kg

Pos.

Mid

Career

Season

Last 5

D

18.0

4star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.5

5star

M

4.5

4star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.5

4star

No current season stats available

D

18.0

5star

K

9.5

4star

HB

8.5

5star

M

4.5

5star

T

4.0

5star

CL

2.5

5star

(Ess) date of birth is 24 September 1987

 

[WhiteHartLane23]

Another DOB update:
Brian (Whale) Roberts has DOB 28 Apr 1946 in VFL related records and 28 Apr 1948 in WAFL records.
One of his daughters edited wiki after he died to show date of birth as 28 Apr 1945 and a check on Ancestry shows this is correct with birth registered in Yorkshire in Q2 1945


and emigration records from 1959 also showing that date


Summary: Brian Roberts DOB is 28 Apr 1945
Oliver G *Paul* rbartlett

 

[35Daicos]

Another DOB update:
Brian (Whale) Roberts has DOB 28 Apr 1946 in VFL related records and 28 Apr 1948 in WAFL records.
One of his daughters edited wiki after he died to show date of birth as 28 Apr 1945 and a check on Ancestry shows this is correct with birth registered in Yorkshire in Q2 1945
View attachment 1976288

and emigration records from 1959 also showing that date
View attachment 1976287

Summary: Brian Roberts DOB is 28 Apr 1945
Oliver G *Paul* rbartlett

Looks like no-one noticed this a few years back!:

He made the obituaries list in the 2017 Season Guide, but they still had the 1946 DOB.

 

[RedmanWasHere]

Another DOB update:
Brian (Whale) Roberts has DOB 28 Apr 1946 in VFL related records and 28 Apr 1948 in WAFL records.
One of his daughters edited wiki after he died to show date of birth as 28 Apr 1945 and a check on Ancestry shows this is correct with birth registered in Yorkshire in Q2 1945
View attachment 1976288

and emigration records from 1959 also showing that date
View attachment 1976287

Summary: Brian Roberts DOB is 28 Apr 1945
Oliver G *Paul* rbartlett

Didn't know the Whale was a Pom.

 

[35Daicos]

The correct DOB for Collingwood 1950s player Eddie Millar is 26 April 1938, the club has been advised. Current records show it as 24 June 1938:

The AFL will be advised of this change shortly. Collingwood Forever is still being upgraded, and the amended DOB can't be shown there until that process is complete!

Collingwood FC History

Collingwood FC History. 9,698 likes · 2,819 talking about this. When sharing any photo/article from the page, please share the link to the post. Or add the name of

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He made his debut on his 20th birthday, coming into the side as a late replacement for Bill Twomey.

Oliver G
*Paul*