NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

[Sven]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

One for the legal boffins....
http://www.bizoffootball.com/index....court&catid=44:articles-and-opinion&Itemid=61

A large part of the battle has been over the NFL’s instance that they legally do not have to release financial information showing that they are seeing a cash flow decline, hence their want for approx. $1 billion more in expense credits for things like new stadium development.

In the meantime, the NBA, who sees their labor agreement expire on June 30, has released their audited financial information to the NBPA saying they are losing money.

So what’s the difference?

Notice that the NFL is saying they are in a “cash flow decline” while the NBA is saying they are “running at a loss.” The difference between the two is significant and the Supreme Court’s ruling on a labor case from the 1950s plays a role in the matter.

In 1956, a landmark case went before the highest court in the US in Labor Board v. Truitt Manuf. The Syllabus for that case reads:

In the circumstances of this case, where the employer claimed that it could not afford to pay higher wages but refused the union's request to produce financial data to substantiate this claim, the National Labor Relations Board was justified in finding that the employer had not bargained in good faith and, therefore, had violated § 8(a)(5) of the National Labor Relations Act.
{…]

The question presented by this case is whether the National Labor Relations Board may find that an employer has not bargained in good faith where the employer claims it cannot afford to pay higher wages but refuses requests to produce information substantiating its claim.

The Supreme Court ruled in favor of the NLRB, with Justice Black delivering the opinion saying in part:

We think that, in determining whether the obligation of good faith bargaining has been met, the Board has a right to consider an employer's refusal to give information about its financial status. While Congress did not compel agreement between employers and bargaining representatives, it did require collective bargaining in the hope that agreements would result. Section 204(a)(1) of the Act admonishes both employers and employees to "exert every reasonable effort to make and maintain agreements concerning rates of pay, hours, and working conditions. . . ."

This key ruling is why when the NBA says that they “in a decline” or “losing money” they are compelled to release financial information to the NBPA -- the union for the NBA's players -- to prove as such. Since the NFL is not saying that – they are profiting but seeing cash flow declines – they are not compelled to release financial information to the NFLPA, the union for the NFL's players.

Which is why Jeff Pash filed this within the NFL’s charges that the NFLPA is conducting unfair labor practices (see Complete Text of NFL Charges Against NFLPA for Unfair Labor Practices):

More specifically, since the commencement of formal negotiations, the NFLPA has engaged in a course of conduct calculated to avoid reaching an agreement with the NFLMC by, inter ali …. insisting upon disclosure of financial data to which the NFLPA has no legal right and then suspended negotiations unless and until such data is produced by the NFLMC…

So, when looking at the NBA and NFL labor battles, one of the biggest issues revolves around how the Supreme Court ruled in the 1950s and why the NBPA is now looking at financial data from the NBA, while the NFLPA is on the outside looking in at the NFL’s financial information: one is saying they are losing money (the NBA), while the other is not (the NFL).

 

[drd23]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Did you all hear AP calling the players "Modern Day Slaves"?

So stupid.

You can read the whole interview here: http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...xpresses-frustration-on-labor-i?urn=nfl-wp206

The interviewer doesnt believe that he meant it the way that it is being portrayed though

Based on the context in which the comments were made, I do not believe that Peterson was actually equating his current position in the NFL with any kind of slavery.

 

[Anno_Domini]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

I read it this morning.

I know that he may not have used it in the black oppression sense, but I just think any real link is stupid.

Especially when you're sitting with millions of dollars in your pocket and can do anything you ever want to do.

 

[Sven]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

...I know Manning and Brady both filed the lawsuit, but my memory from there is a bit shoddy. Were the 10 guys all big-time players, or were they all different types?

The NFLPA has ensured the 10 plaintiffs are from up and down the food chain in the NFL. Brady, Manning and Brees are the outright stars, but two Vikings players are included due to most of the proceedings likely to take place in Minnesota and even Von Miller who hasn't even been drafted yet.

The 10 plaintiffs are:

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Vincent Jackson, Vikings linebacker Ben Leber and defensive end Brian Robison, Patriots guard Logan Mankins, Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora, Chiefs linebacker Mike Vrabel, and Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller.​

 

[Anno_Domini]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

The NFLPA has ensured the 10 plaintiffs are from up and down the food chain in the NFL. Brady, Manning and Brees are the outright stars, but two Vikings players are included due to most of the proceedings likely to take place in Minnesota and even Von Miller who hasn't even been drafted yet.

The 10 plaintiffs are:

Tom Brady, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Vincent Jackson, Vikings linebacker Ben Leber and defensive end Brian Robison, Patriots guard Logan Mankins, Giants defensive end Osi Umenyiora, Chiefs linebacker Mike Vrabel, and Texas A&M linebacker Von Miller.​

Other than Robison and Vrabel. The other 7 in the NFL are very well known, and very good at their positions.

Von Miller is probably just trying to win the players over. And it'll probably work.

 

[larkis]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

I think we are all over this saga.
Gone from blaming players, to owners and to both. Now I just blame neither party for the deal not getting done. The real villains in this are the lawyers. If either side don't have their lawyers, they are vulnerable to get screwed by the law. Hence each side just build their little fortresses off cases to file, cases to refer to and a little lawyer fund to last the lockout.

For the lockout to get put away, take out all the lawyers and put in the players that love the game such as veterans that worked for 10+ years or worked their way from the practice squad to probowler, the owners that love the game and willing to trust their own players, spend money on them and look at them like their own sons and add in a few respected NFL figures like John Madden to mediate. Once a rough deal is done, add the lawyers to iron it out properly and deal done.

Instead we'll get two groups of lawyers slinging dung at eachother.

 

[Woodson]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

GOODELL's feeling the heat... his latest message was about bringing the positive solution to making NFLPA understand the offer being made.

REACTION:

"I've told my guys to take the letter and set it on fire. We're not that stupid," said Seattle Seahawks guard Chester Pitts, whose reaction was relayed by NFLPA assistant executive director George Atallah.

source: ESPN.com

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

The more this story evolves, the more I'm rooting for the players. Wanting to play a traditional football game and get paid handsomely for it trumps fat suits wanting to get fatter

 

[Woodson]

Re: Owners said it's FAIR deal

Here's the crux of the story and why Goodell et el have been labeled liars and profiting from the revenue breakdown.

Always wondered that there was a 'catch 22' to why Goodell would dare put his salary on the line. Of course the picture is clearer than ever, Goodell made a deal with the owners and would recoup his losses at the players expense.

Still wonder if the rookie scale isn't another issue??

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

I read a fans comment/suggestion in one NFL.com article, which I can't find right now, but he proposes a new way that is interesting.

Get rid of Agents. Get rid of individual contracts. Instead, there's a collective pool of money, which gets split 50:50. The 50% portion that belongs to the NFLPA, they just hire a team of lawyers who doll out income to all the hundreds of players based on games played, wins, statistical achievements, years in the league etc. Like a set pay scale, and then there's extra bonuses on those extra achievements.

However, I don't think that would work, because how would teams ever compete for a player's signature.

 

[Woodson]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

I read a fans comment/suggestion in one NFL.com article, which I can't find right now, but he proposes a new way that is interesting.

Get rid of Agents. Get rid of individual contracts. Instead, there's a collective pool of money, which gets split 50:50. The 50% portion that belongs to the NFLPA, they just hire a team of lawyers who doll out income to all the hundreds of players based on games played, wins, statistical achievements, years in the league etc. Like a set pay scale, and then there's extra bonuses on those extra achievements.

However, I don't think that would work, because how would teams ever compete for a player's signature.

Only in the perfect world.. to have players without ego and greed would this apply. Will never happen in the real world as we know it.

I find it absurd that the NFL are being spiteful now with stipulating these rule changes. As much as we already know that inconsistency in the fines and other matters that should of been handled much better, the current administration can't seriously believe they can win back the fans again. Goodell has botched it big time. I think it's only a matter of time before the owners realize they don't have the same idealist commissioner who they thought he was. The fans should revolt / make a protest against Goodell to show the owners they are completely fed up with his mismanagement/ whole Lock out situation. I believe there is a fan rally being organized with two dates in mind.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

With the players demanding to negotiate with just the Owners, it would mean imo that Roger Goodell is given a vote of no confidence, not willing to recognize him as commissioner, and the owners should act to remove him and bring in a new commissioner.

 

[Sven]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

The more this story evolves, the more I'm rooting for the players. Wanting to play a traditional football game and get paid handsomely for it trumps fat suits wanting to get fatter

Welcome aboard GG. To me it seems the players are winning the PR campaign so far. The only problem with that is that it will count for nothing in court.


as soon as Goodell admits that his so called final deal is actually a stinker for the players and not a great deal the quicker this can be sorted out.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

I'm always aboard, tho Al Davis is the only owner out there worth supporting, has been pushing for years for a Health Fund and holding the torch for player rights as an owner, which is against the grain.

But yes, the players are winning the PR campaign, and the great thing for me personally, is how Roger Goodell has been taking a battering, and pretty much now the entire pool of pro-players despise him and want him removed, already pushing him out as a commissioner with this new request he not be involved in talks.

The moment Roger Goodell got voted in (bar Al Davis' vote abstained), I knew he was bad news, a fox, and a corrupt bed-partner (spygate). Vindication at last.

 

[Woodson]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Found a numbers spill article by Yahoo sport's Jason Cole (Credibility Plus) who basically tells us the Owners are just refusing to give up the $$$$ that the players are claiming that the Owners are lying about of not expanding on by allowing proof that they have expenses.

Damn good article. Makes you see why the NFLPA are refusing to budge.

 

[Sven]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Chris Kluwe of the Vikings has produced his own version of Goodell's letter to all the players....

“Dear Employee #1363,

I am sending you this impersonal form letter because I care about you as a player (snicker). As such, I urge you to accept our last offer, one that would cut $30 million from the veteran salary cap, reduce your percentage of revenue from 50% to 32% over 8 years, reduce the number of practices (since we don’t make any money off those anyways) in the offseason, and provide you with health insurance which will void if you ever work another job. You’re getting a great deal here. Really. Trust me.

(unrestrained laughter) Sincerely, Rog”

unfortunately there's a thread of truth through the whole thing

 

[BeinPurplenGreen]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

One for the legal boffins....
http://www.bizoffootball.com/index....court&catid=44:articles-and-opinion&Itemid=61

This, right here, is the core reason why we have a lockout...

Precedent, dudes. And teh difference between "declining revenues" and "making a loss"...

 

[drd23]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Chris Kluwe of the Vikings has produced his own version of Goodell's letter to all the players....

The letter is better in visual form

http://mit.zenfs.com/209/2011/03/yahoo_kluwe1.jpg
and
http://mit.zenfs.com/209/2011/03/yahoo_kluwe2.jpg

 

[Woodson]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

The letter is better in visual form

http://mit.zenfs.com/209/2011/03/yahoo_kluwe1.jpg
and
http://mit.zenfs.com/209/2011/03/yahoo_kluwe2.jpg

Fantatic find drd23.

Owners will wonder why Goodell is even taking their side with the hilarious $1 paypacket he cares to hang his hat on to gain pity points.

We all know that Goodell will reap his big payroll after this is all done n' dusted. The publicity stunt isn't working as the fans don't give a damn about him quite frankly.

 

[drd23]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Fantatic find drd23.

Owners will wonder why Goodell is even taking their side with the hilarious $1 paypacket he cares to hang his hat on to gain pity points.

We all know that Goodell will reap his big payroll after this is all done n' dusted. The publicity stunt isn't working as the fans don't give a damn about him quite frankly.

De Smith has topped him by not having a salary until this thing is resolved. And you should also remember that De Smith earns like 20% of what Goodell normally does.

 

[drd23]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

The NFLPA*'s formal response to Goodell's letter to the players can be found here:
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/sh...tion-abundantly-clear-in-respon?urn=nfl-wp392

 

[Woodson]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

De Smith has topped him by not having a salary until this thing is resolved. And you should also remember that De Smith earns like 20% of what Goodell normally does.

I saw that.
That's just laughable really. So his fees are gonna be a few thousand less of the TRUCKLOAD he'll earn anyway... how nice of him to say this now. meh.

If the Players want to go all out and push for an OVERHAUL of new rules commitee meaning there is a season WIPEOUT and hopefully Goodell's arse gets booted by the Owners... I think I can live with that. Put the game ahead of all this BS fiasco instead of compromising this game to be a much lesser/ enjoyable game. NFL players should be fuming even more.

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

NFL doesnt rule out the possibility of Replacement players.

It has been widely assumed and explained and concluded that, during a lockout, the NFL teams won’t be able to use replacement players.

The NFL is not yet ready to concede that point.

Click to read more

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Meanwhile, the NFL submits their argument why a) the decertification was contrived, and b) why a court can't ban a lockout.

Full article here

As to whether the union legitimately shut down, the league’s brief cites comments from men like Kevin Mawae, DeMeco Ryans, Derrick Mason, Vonnie Holliday, Jeff Saturday, and Mike Vrabel. For example, the league points to the following September 2010 quote from Mawae as proof that the decertification is merely a tactic for gaining leverage: “[T]he idea of decertification, the tactic and the strategy worked back in 1989. . . . [T]he whole purpose [of disclaimer] is to have that ace in our sleeve. . . . And at the end of the day, guys understand the strategy, it’s been a part of the union strategy since I’ve been in the league. . . .”

 

[exe ex machina]

Re: NFL Lockout 'A Certainty'

Here's a great recent article on the lockout, and how Al Davis is at war with the NFL and other owners regarding the current dead-end with the NFLPA.

Full article here

Davis is a players' owner and really doesn't mind the players getting the big piece of the pie because he realizes no one is going to see him play against Jerry Jones. Therefore, he is ready to challenge the rest of the league and bump up the players' salaries some more.