Makybe Diva comparisons

[starz]

Once and for all i'm putting this one to bed.
It never ceases to amaze how deluded and way off the mark some numpty's are by throwing up any old name at the drop of a hat in comparison to MD.

Sorry, they won’t be remembered anywhere near the same legendary status as MD because they didn't leave behind a similar legacy and rewrite the record books.

The cold hard truth: They could not go over the gut busting distance.
The reality is 90% of the great short distance racehorses cannot go that far no matter how hard they try..
Unfortunately don’t have the juice.
Don’t have the heart and stamina.
Weren’t good enough basically.
Thus cannot be considered all round champion/legend racehorses.
All horses can run 1000 to 1800, .. but very very few can run the 3200m at an elite level. Kingston town, one of those compared tried his heart out to win the MC but wasn't quite good enough.

Who is the closest to MD’s status?
Phar Lap was in a league of his own way back when. That’s why he, above all others is the closest. Died of a heart attack and some say because of steroids, which could explain the size of the horse and size of the heart… but that's speculative, I’m calling a legit legend.
And that’s the way it is, MD is regarded is the greatest and Phar Lap second place.

Comparisons
Sorry you can’t just win 10-15 micky mouse lower class races 1000-1600m and expect to elevate your status to any significance among the legends, no way. You don’t become a legendary team by winning the minor premiership, NAB Cup or a triangular ODI series do you? No. You do it by winning the biggest events, and backing it up time and again in style. It comes down to majors, 2 Cox plates is a great achievement and will put you down as a legend (FOO, Sunline etc) but to a much inferior level.

The 2 majors
The Melbourne Cup is Australia’s biggest race, always has been. The quality of field is lesser because there are up to three times as many runners than in the Cox, ½ of those are just making up the numbers, as with any race once in every ten years+ an oustsider gets up.
It’s the true iron man event and 24 runners just makes it all the more difficult.
This years field main contendors: Zipping, Delta Blues, Pop rock, Activation, Yeats, Maybe Better, Tawqeet, Efficient

It's steept in history 145 years and still going strong, no more famous race in Australia. It has the most prize money.. for good reason. Has the most hype and along with the Cox they are clearly the most sought after...
The Cox Plate is the other major it’s a weight for age ‘handicap‘, usually a small field but for the most part top quality. A classic race around the inferior Mooney Valley racecourse.
It’s a seemingly stronger race quality-wise because there’s only a few in it.
The Cox carries the second highest prize money albeit just over half that of the Melbourne Cup.

The Melbourne Cup and Cox Plate are head and shoulders above all other races in Aus.
Anyone mentioning the Caulfield Cup as one of the great races (as I’ve heard) has nfi.
It is a Melbourne Cup trial, a crapshoot around an ordinary biased track, nothing more.
Mickey mouse one-off international races are a nice feather in the cap but the truth is some travel some don’t.. long flights and foreign conditions on limited prep are not taken seriously and dismissed.

Elite Legendary status
It comes down to the majors obviously, that’s where you prove yourself.
Win the Cox and back it up by winning the Melbourne Cup emphatically and win them numerous times.
Then and only then can one be compared to MD. And if you can win the double (COX/MC) in the same season just 9 days apart, all the more strength to their case.

So to reach MD status what must one achieve?
4 majors, no less... But not all 4 of the same major.
Preferably back up a dominant Cox Plate win by winning the Melb Cup just as impressively a week or two later.
Win them all emphatically, as the way they are won is what people remember, for example, who won the Derby in 2001-2005? Oh ok.. Who cares.. But look at the way Efficient won this year Derby.

And that's why Makybe Diva is in a league of her own won 4 majors and won them easily. The legend of all legends that completely dominated the big races and reached a level we won’t see again for a very long time.
On top of that, retired at the peak of her powers and many-a good judge have no doubts she could have gone on and done it all again the following year just as easily.
There are many different levels of legends, Makybe Diva owns the penthouse and the rest are on the floors below, most of them a long way down.

 

[silver1]

This is a more appropriate place for this topic, and for what it's worth i agree with you, well done and well said.
Always had a soft spot for Kingston Town though, but agreed didn't do enough to compare with Makybe Diva who was a freak and seemingly getting better and better with age, love them both.

 

[starz]

Thanks, i don't think there's any doubt but people will try in vain to compare no doubt.

 

[silver1]

Right on.
Always hard to compare from different era's, but if put in a time-machine legends from 50 odd years ago would get well beaten by the modern day legends but that's because of certain factors re- training, technology, knowledge and professionalism.

 

[demon21]

Yeah Makybe Diva is a great horse but its still 2nd behind Phar Lap.

 

[medusala]

Always had a soft spot for Kingston Town though, but agreed didn't do enough to compare with Makybe Diva

And to think you attempt to label others as tools.

Misologist of the highest order.

Absolute out and out muppetry.

Go and watch 75 years of the Cox Plate.

 

[medusala]

The cold hard truth: They could not go over the gut busting distance.
The reality is 90% of the great short distance racehorses cannot go that far no matter how hard they try..
Unfortunately don’t have the juice.
Don’t have the heart and stamina.
Weren’t good enough basically.
Thus cannot be considered all round champion/legend racehorses.
All horses can run 1000 to 1800, .. but very very few can run the 3200m at an elite level. Kingston town, one of those compared tried his heart out to win the MC but wasn't quite good enough.

So Pantani is clearly a far superior horse to Placid Arc, Choisir etc?

All horses can run 1800m?

As for the cold hard truth, you arent comparing apples and apples. The MC is a handicap race. Many great horses were handicapped out of it. Some such as Carbine even managed to win with massive weights (66kgs). Who is to say Peter Pan wouldnt have won if he was weighted the same as MD after two wins?

Clearly on the basis of your thinking Red Rum is the greatest horse of all time.

 

[sethlad]

We didnt need another thread to emphasise that you know nothing about this.Your efforts in the other thread are embarassing enough.

I doubt there would be one other poster hear who agrees with this "logic".
Silver 1 doesnt count because it's obviously either you (you have history) or some muppet youve dragged out to try to make you look convincing.

"Winning two Cox Plates makes you inferior to a MC winner"
"Caulfield Cup is a MC trial"
"Cox Plate is a WFA handicap"

Until 1990,the MC was a race for average horses,the best horses didnt run because it was little more than a b grade handicap & had no cred.Its an anomaly because its worth big $$$ but it wasnt on the radar of the worlds best races.

The internationals have helped to turn this around,its now the Great Race because our best horses at least consider running.Weight scale is different which is why a dual previous winner can get 58,not 62.5 kg.

But youve put it out there so lets see what the majority think.

seth

 

[chunkylover]

md was a great horse but also one of the most over rated. 3 melbourne cups was a fantastic effort but the handicappers gave her the last one.

the melbourne cup has the biggest betting pools and draws massive crowds to racetracks around the country but as a race of quality it doesnt compare to half a dozen races around the country.

northerly, sunline, might and power all horses of this era that have md covered.

these are only my opinions

 

[starz]

northerly, sunline, might and power all horses of this era that have md covered.
but the handicappers gave her the last one.

Not worth responding to,
MD won with top weight. Rest are milers with good achievements but don’t even come close.

Has always been Australia’s biggest race.

"Winning two Cox Plates makes you inferior to a MC winner"

Never said that, and you know it. Find me that quote.. Oh wait you can’t, exactly.

We didnt need another thread to emphasise that you know nothing about this.Your efforts in the other thread are embarassing enough.

Start off with a whinge but still post in here.
You come across like you own the forum.
You did say a couple of 20/1 and 70/1 shots couldn’t win the Melbourne Cup wow awesome… and you did say Miss Finland 12/1 couldn’t win the Cox, a back of 1.08 in effect, must have been a big collect... hardly a great call either.
You can get some credibility back by tipping the forum some winners though, so there’s always hope… might have to get off that fence though.
So how bout you tell us how you rate the best racehorses? Let me guess, more fence sitting??

Until 1990,the MC was a race for average horses, the best horses didnt run because it was little more than a b grade handicap & had no cred.Its an anomaly because its worth big $$$ but it wasnt on the radar of the worlds best races.

The best chances to win the race enter it, that‘s always been the case.
It’s a race for the best stayers in the country.
The best mile horses couldn’t go that far. If they were good enough they would have. The quality of the race in modern times sees the best of the best at the distance contest it. The pretenders sit and wait in the paddock.
The Melbourne Cup has always been Australias biggest race.

The internationals have helped to turn this around,its now the Great Race because our best horses at least consider running. Weight scale is different which is why a dual previous winner can get 58,not 62.5 kg.

58 kg is top weight and it’s a big weight particularly in comparison to the other runners, it’s penalty enough.
If anyone here think it’s fair and they should be hulking 62.5kg In a race of that quality over that distance.. again, shows how much they know.

"Cox Plate is a WFA handicap"

Every single race in Australia has a handicap, this is no different.
You don’t think the Cox is still a handicap? Get a clue.

You don’t rate the race but you more than anyone dedicated more time to it on here.
You said you went to the Call of the card and your only bet was an each way bet on Mandela? the same weighting to any other old race. Went about aswell as your 2.30 best bet last week. Sounded like you were keen on Yeats in the Mc too?
Credit to you for getting Tiger Woods 2 weeks ago @ 2.8 nice to tip a winner isn’t it. Amazing value you claim (after the event) despite saying nothing of the sort beforehand.
Cuts both ways champ, can’t just keep having potshots at someone and not expect some back.

Meduasla I Won’t bother responding. Any chance you could do one mate?
Does anyone know what this newb is talking about? Pulls out random names of old hacks for whatever reason..

As for internationals … Top Internationals have run in the race for years now and there’s really not much chop overseas anyway. Vinnie roe was allegedly the best 2 miler, but was never going to be a match for MD, Yeats the 5/1 ‘superstar’ is still running. Of the other internationals: Deep Impact is one of the top 3 in the world right now if not the best, Japanese horses will do well in the Melb Cup because they’re trained for the distance. But there's not much else o/s anyway.

 

[HeLMie]

Starz is obviously a punter who doesnt know when to leave the track when they down....

 

[sethlad]

You get very grumpy Starz,despite what you think this isnt about you.
Just addressing the topic,the way you react to facts is bizarre.

Whats this thread got to do with my betting,nothing.
Why do you always want to make a fight of everything?
Its a discussion board.I have opinions on racing & harness racing,as for "owning the board",I stick to what I know.
Perhaps if you did too then perhaps some credibility may follow.Threads like this certainly wont help though.

FYI I had Mandela in a double & Im struggling to find the post that says I liked Yeats.Keep looking though.

As for MC weights,Think Big won in 1974 with 53kg.Didnt win another race & got given 58.5 in 75.M Diva was invited to run.

The Tiger Woods thread,from memory said "Does anyone else think $2.80 is good value?" With 1 round to go,is that after the event?
What I didnt do is pretend I know a lot about golf because i found 1 winner.
You admit yourself that racing isnt your sport yet suddenly your opinion is gospel.

If youre still grumpy about Zipping,let it go.You asked me & I said IMO Danehills dont run 2 miles & that you should lay it to get something out of it.It didnt & obviously you didnt,too bad.

Stick to battles you can win,I must say its heartening to see you sticking to one identity,that makes a change.

seth

 

[starz]

No, just calling it as I see it like always.
The facts are there in the first post, it's the responses that are amusing.

Again you avoid the question I put to you.
Is that because you said sunline wouldn’t get near Makybe diva in the ‘least favourite thread’?
You fear the masses will get up you for saying that? Hey, don’t be afraid to give an opinion. Maybe you’ve done a flip flop now?

Like I said I backed Zipping to win @ 71/1 antepost so little damage.
Backed the place @ 6/1 and was only knocked out of the placings by 2 unknown quantities and credit to an amazing run from Maybe Better. Laid Yeats and Tawqeet.
Not a good result but would do it again.

The Tiger Woods call didn't come across as definitive one way or the other, looked a bit guessy to me.

Helmie, how do you come to that conclusion...
Ironic weren't you asking or thanking a stranger in the forum for a quick tip at the end of the day that you lumped on and won back your losses a few weeks back..?

 

[medusala]

The best chances to win the race enter it, that‘s always been the case.
It’s a race for the best stayers in the country.

Northerly won the Caufield Cup (something MD couldnt). Presumably he wouldnt have been able to stay 3200m?

58 kg is top weight and it’s a big weight particularly in comparison to the other runners, it’s penalty enough.

Yet plenty of other horses in the past have been given 60+ without having won a cup ie Northerly.

You don’t think the Cox is still a handicap? Get a clue.

Do you realise how the WFA scale works?

Meduasla I Won’t bother responding. Any chance you could do one mate?
Does anyone know what this newb is talking about? Pulls out random names of old hacks for whatever reason..

Are you seriously trying to tell me Carbine was a hack?

 

[starz]

Northerly was good, but nothing overly outstanding from the rest.

The Cox plate "weight for age" is still a handicap.

Carbine was racing when… 1887-1892?
I’m sure all amateur/novice racing had its flaws way back then.
Why do you love horses from 70-100+ years ago so much?

 

[sethlad]

you said sunline wouldn’t get near Makybe diva in the ‘least favourite thread’?

Pfft,read the thread,I said exactly the opposite.Deej got it,sarcasm is obviously lost on you

Like I said I backed Zipping to win @ 71/1Not a good result

This is where we will always differ,had a guaranteed profit in a tough market & threw it away.It had nil hope of winning.

The Tiger Woods call didn't come across as definitive one way or the other, looked a bit guessy to me.

Which part of "Does anyone else think $2.80 is a big price is unclear?
Comprehension not part of your schooling?

Your WFA ignorance says it all,you have no understanding or love of racing & its history so your judgement is purely based on the last 10 yrs.
Theres no polls to look at regarding popularity contests so you are out of your depth if its not reality TV.
You could do some research & show some respect but thats not you.

Im ignoring the question? At least I only post under one identity.
Hey Drifting?

seth

 

[starz]

OK, i see you and the MD bashers had a giggle that Sunline's time was quicker in their respective Cox Plates.
Yet you both were too stupid?ignorant? to realise Sunlines was on a good track and MD’s was on a Slow track… oh dear. Need I say more.
Thought that would slip through unnoticed did you?
You do know what track ratings mean?….

 

[HeLMie]

OK, i see you and the MD bashers had a giggle that Sunline's time was quicker in their respective Cox Plates.
Yet you both were too stupid?ignorant? to realise Sunlines was on a good track and MD’s was on a Slow track… oh dear. Need I say more.
Thought that would slip through unnoticed did you?
You do know what track ratings mean?….

But MD raced better on tracks with give in them, its debateable she wouldnt have won had it been a good track...

 

[sethlad]

Youre really struggling lol
You obsessively troll my posts & thats the best you can do?
How would you have known anyway if someone hadnt posted it?
Racing knowledge is virtually nil

Reread that post yet,yes you completely misunderstood it.

Still conveniently avoid the fact that you have multiple id's.
Sad you need make believe friends to argue your point.

Yet to find 1 poster (thats not you) who doesnt laugh at your "logic".
Its a champion cos it can go the distance.
Other horses are weak if they dont run in the MC
Gold

Im happy to ignore your posts,save everyone from this crap.
Its up to you,Im not interested in DWTS or Big Brother

seth

 

[starz]

I'm really struggling because i found you out teeing one of the Md bashers about Cox Plate times?
Sorry pal, you got found out and owned, leave it.

What’s your obsession with this multiple id’s bs, u think I‘m how many people now..?

Yes I bet on entertainment sometimes, along with just about every other sport, because I know what I‘m doing.
I’d much rather bet on any of them than the trots..

 

[sethlad]

Admin know how many ID's you have Drifting/silver1.

Love the mare,just have a realistic view of her.

seth

 

[starz]

Yep, I’d back my judgement over anyone here regarding this.
The criteria is set out in the first post.

Good for you or anyone else tracking me.. Join my fan/hate club the more the merrier.

 

[punters123]

Yep, I’d back my judgement over anyone here regarding this.
The criteria is set out in the first post.

Good for you or anyone else tracking me.. Join my fan/hate club the more the merrier.

Nonstarz. TAKE YOUR HAND OF IT YOUR DOING IT TO MUCH. Then deal with your issues.

 

[starz]

It’s still always going to be a subjective opinion, no point mud slinging.
I was just putting a few things straight.
I loved Sunline and Kingston Town too but just have a realistic view of where they sit in the pecking order (imo).
You might disagree, so not everyone has the same favourite colour either, deal with it.

 

[Im The Gun]

Starz I've been trying to read your crap but it really makes me sick.
Makybe Diva was a great horse no doubt about that, but you live in some sort of dream world if you really rate the cup that high.
Maybe Better wouldn't even get a start in the Cox Plate let alone run a place, yet he out stayed the rest of the Australian horses to run 3rd in the Cup.

Lets look at some of the "champions" to have won the cup
Brew - never started at WFA and was a saturday class handicapper real champion
Jezzabeel - a little better, but did nothing after the cup like so many of these champions
Rogan Josh - did little before the cup, did nothing after it
Meida Puzzle - 1 win in the 12 months before the cup, no wins after it. Came over as a stable mate and wasn't even rated in the top 100 horses in the UK.
Dalta Blues - not even in the top 20 horses in Japan, was beaten by Deep Impact by 20 lengths in the Japan Cup last year

Now lets talk about some of these cox plate winners
Northerly - won 2 Cox Plates, a Caulfield cup and many other WFA races, won Horse of the year twice should have won it 3 times
Sunline - Won in 3 counties, rated at one stage the best mare in the world on turf
Octagonal - Won horse of the year. winner of the BMW, Australian Cup, & Underwood. Won 6 group 1's
Dane Ripper - Won 5 group 1s inc the Australian cup and Doomben 10,000
Better Loosen Up - Only Australian horse to win a Japan Cup, won the Australian Cup, BMW & AJC Queen Elizabeth Stakes
Super Impose - Champion miler who 2 the Sydney Mile double twice
Bonecrusher - a freak and could have beaten anything on his day,
Kingston Town - the best horse of his day, won 3 cox plates, over $1m when prizemoney was low. won everything but the cup Was one of the first 5 horses named to the hall of fame.

The only reason the cup is so huge is because of the way this city gets behind it. The prizemoney is there because they want international horses to run in it, it puts our racing on the map and thats great. but the Cox Plate is by a mile our best race. For starters its at Weight for Age, the only fair slace of weights there is, the best horse wins it most of the time. The Cox Plate is also in the world championship of racing, why is that? because it's our best race.