Malthouse v Thompson

[the_champ_2004]

I thought it would be interesting to look at the two coaches considering they are both in their 10th year at their current clubs. I am personally not a fan of Thompson as a coach and believe that a better coach would have taken Geelong to back to back flags. He has been given the luxury of some excellent recruiting and yes of course father son selections but you cannot ignore that their recruiters have gotten it right outside of father son selections. Malthouse however has a reputation of getting more out of a lesser team and now seems to be benefiting by better recruiting. Which makes me wonder with all the talk of this possible being Malthouses last year who is the better coach?

The final ladder positions after finals for Thompson have been:
7th - 2000
12th - 2001
9th - 2002
12th - 2003
4th - 2004
5th - 2005
10th - 2006
1st - 2007
2nd - 2008
For an average finish of:7th

While Malthouse has finished:
15th - 2000
9th - 2001
2nd - 2002
2nd - 2003
13th - 2004
15th - 2005
7th - 2006
4th - 2007
6th - 2008
For an average finish of:8th

So from that you can gather that they have had up and down seasons and have both been able to manage to pick a side up from out of the finals on more than one occasion. This does not however change my opinion that Thompson is not a good coach in that he does not have the tactical abilities of Roos, Williams or Malthouse and is more of a manager. Malthouse is one of the 4 best coaches in the league at the moment and it is my opinion that until the side starts to show otherwise he should stay on as coach. I will also post this on the AFL board

 

[abs_of_STEELE]

Premierships are everything in football. Bomber has gotten Geelong a premiership, MM hasn't gotten Collingwood one.

That's just the way I like to judge it.

 

[FuManchu]

How could anyone consider MM a great tactical coach, when he has only one tactic and no plan B when that one tactic fails?

 

[tess]

How could anyone consider MM a great tactical coach, when he has only one tactic and no plan B when that one tactic fails?

But he doesn't have the cattle it's not his fault.

 

[Optimax]

3 threads. Hasnt even been a week since the first, possibly we should get a SUPER MM discussion thread ala the toovey one last year lol

 

[rotten pie]

How can you compare?

Thompson has a premiership.

Mick hasn't. Well not at Collingwood anyway.

Thompson wins every time until this changes.

 

[FuManchu]

But he doesn't have the cattle it's not his fault.

He's had 9 years to get and properly train the cattle. Others dont get that latitude.

 

[tess]

He's had 9 years to get and properly train the cattle. Others dont get that latitude.

What do you expect him to do, get out and kick the ball for them.... he can only do so much!

 

[FuManchu]

What do you expect him to do, get out and kick the ball for them.... he can only do so much!

I expect him to run his footballing dept with the same expectations placed on other coaches, recruit and coach for success within 5 years or eff off. He's had 9 and we are all still living in hope. It's like he is dangling a perpetual carrot, and everyone keeps falling for it, and he keeps getting extensions because everyone considers him so close. But he never delivers. just as everyone is so excited about this year, just as everyone was so excited about last year, and the year before and 2004 and 2003 and 2002. All those years were talked up by supporters in the belief we were on the right track. Lo and behold, we fell short time and time again.

After 9 years, I think I have gotten the message about his limitations of running a football dept and as coach. And dont ever doubt, anything that happens at Collingwood effecting on-field, is a direct result of him. He wouldnt have it any other way. Geoff Walsh might be manager in name, but MM runs the show, what MM wants, MM gets.

 

[tess]

OI Fuman..... its me!!!

Taking the pi55......

 

[FuManchu]

OI Fuman..... its me!!!

Taking the pi55......

I know its you, but your comments echo those of others that cant see beyond their noses. You know the rah rah rah squad.

 

[RRRooocccaaa]

Well Fu, you may just be getting what you want this year... or WILL you?!?

Just me hypothesising here, but I wonder whether Mick is now coaching the coaches and they in turn will be running the squad?

The NAB experiment is just another step toward a displacement of MM as the coach we knew him as. He's allowing a longer leash to his 2nd-tier coaches to let them prove or disprove their theories and in doing so gets their respect and also the respect from the playing group (they're being listened to).

His game plan has changed, in part due to Guy McKenna's insistence that the younger brigade has dash and bravado and can pull off the flairy bits. He wouldn't have allowed that 5-6 years ago. The 'down-the-middle' drills, just supplementing our existing strategies, not replacing them.

He appears to be relinquishing power and yet perhaps wielding a whole lot more now. I think this year is the end of MM as we knew him, but may be turning point for 2 years more of interesting footy to benefit all involved. Noticed how his media commitments have been scaled back this year? How he's willing (not happy) to get down to ground level to see the game play out in front of him like a spectator. Shows a sense of perspective from a guy that's usually been branded stubborn and single-minded.

Just a theory - happy to have it shot down in flames. But... you never know...

 

[mattys123]

Hmm, is it just me, or did it take Thompson 7 years to get them into a GF, where MM got us in 2 in his 3rd and 4th year, and got unlucky both times (close loss and Rocca suspension)

I dont think this would be a fair question for another 3-4 years, when both have left their current clubs and the record will speak for itself.

Overall (WCE + WB) = MM
Time at current clubs = Thompson

At the moment.

 

[Pie eyed]

3 threads. Hasnt even been a week since the first, possibly we should get a SUPER MM discussion thread ala the toovey one last year lol

We need a weekly Monday to Thursday night Cage Match thread.

We will have rotating list of topics:

Sack Mick.
Sack Eddie.
Can Maxwell hold his spot in the side.
Sack Rocca.
Fraser is a hack.
Didak is a bad role model.
Sack Bryan.
We should have drafted ruckmen in 2002/03.
and so on.

Intending participants should nominate after 3 quarter time but before the final siren of the Collingwood match before the next Monday's Cage Match.

The poster or posters (if working in conjunction or different manifestations of the same individual) deemed "The Winners" by virtue of a vote by fellow members on the Friday following each Cage Match will be an automatic inclusion for the following weeks Cage Match.

A limit of 10 posters will be accepted for each Cage Match but any Magpies board member can intermittently intercede (post short or one line posts designed to either goad their non-preferred participants or egg on their favorites). There will be a limit of 10 intercessions by any one non-participating poster per Cage Match, so choose you intercessions well.

As far as rule, apart from the "guidelines" above there are NO RULES.

Nominations for Next Monday nights Cage Match will open in the already specified period of Friday nights NAB Cup Final.

In the spirit of the competition and as it is my idea I will pre-nominate the following posters to kick off.
FuMancu
KissStephanie
Tess and last but not least
Col Davies.

This leaves 6 spots open for budding debating champions.

In light of the fact we already have 3 thread ripping into the MM tenure issue I will nominate a different Topic before kick-off on Monday....


Sound like a hoot......?

Register your interest here.

 

[Pie eyed]

Hmm, is it just me, or did it take Thompson 7 years to get them into a GF, where MM got us in 2 in his 3rd and 4th year, and got unlucky both times (close loss and Rocca suspension)

I dont think this would be a fair question for another 3-4 years, when both have left their current clubs and the record will speak for itself.

Overall (WCE + WB) = MM
Time at current clubs = Thompson

At the moment.

Logic and or side by side comparison of like situations have no place in these debates. It is not about the topic but battle, the Combat.

 

[mdc]

People greatly overrate finals performance in terms of evaluating a coach.

Finals games generally come down to 3 things: Luck, injuries and who has the best players.

The H&A season is, for mine, a much better indicator of coaching ability. That's why I rate Craig so highly, despite his crappy finals record. He's been able to weather injuries, an incredibly flawed list, etc...and still keep his team competitive year in year out. Finals time, it's up to the players, and he just doesn't have the cattle.

Basically, if a coach manages to;
- Get his team into the top 4
- Get his team healthy rolling into finals
- Develop the younger players on the list

...that coach is doing an excellent job.

 

[FuManchu]

Hmm, is it just me, or did it take Thompson 7 years to get them into a GF, where MM got us in 2 in his 3rd and 4th year, and got unlucky both times (close loss and Rocca suspension)

I dont think this would be a fair question for another 3-4 years, when both have left their current clubs and the record will speak for itself.

Overall (WCE + WB) = MM
Time at current clubs = Thompson

At the moment.

Thompson was lucky to survive the 7 years, but he did one thing MM hasnt done at Collingwood, when he got there. If coaches are hired with one outcome in mind, then he is ahead of MM.

If you are looking at it from relevance in todays game, he is ahead because he not only has that flag, but he has also had two seasons of almost unparalleled dominance. MM has not produced a team like that for 15 or so years.

 

[Pie eyed]

Thompson was lucky to survive the 7 years, but he did one thing MM hasnt done at Collingwood, when he got there. If coaches are hired with one outcome in mind, then he is ahead of MM.

If you are looking at it from relevance in todays game, he is ahead because he not only has that flag, but he has also had two seasons of almost unparalleled dominance. MM has not produced a team like that for 15 or so years.

And now? Is it possible that a period of dominance may be unfolding at Collingwood.
The list has far more to do with period of dominance than a coach.

No side will ever have a period of unparalleled dominance without a damned good list and a damned good coach. The best coach on the face of the earth won't get Melbourne to win 17 H&A games this year.
Thompson did not look so dominant the year before the flag, though he side showed patches, young players were not quite consistent enough to assert a dominance. Seasoned players had on and off field behavior issues.


It sound a bloody lot like Collingwood's group last year.

Thompson records shines now but only in the reflected glory of a flag.

Had you been making this comparison two years ago there would have been very different opinion expressed.

 

[FuManchu]

And now? Is it possible that a period of dominance may be unfolding at Collingwood.
The list has far more to do with period of dominance than a coach.

No side will ever have a period of unparalleled dominance without a damned good list and a damned good coach. The best coach on the face of the earth won't get Melbourne to win 17 H&A games this year.
Thompson did not look so dominant the year before the flag, though he side showed patches, young players were not quite consistent enough to assert a dominance. Seasoned players had on and off field behavior issues.


It sound a bloody lot like Collingwood's group last year.

Thompson records shines now but only in the reflected glory of a flag.

Had you been making this comparison two years ago there would have been very different opinion expressed.

and once again, why has it taken him so long to produce?

And further to that, if indeed we are better this year, how much better are we?

A lot seem to be placing a lot of faith in the pre season results. For mine, they mean nothing. Not too much has occured in those games to make me think other than bigger bodies and quicker by foot, the team has changed that much.

The backline hasnt been tested, so is it any better than last year? Tomorrow night wont give us a full indication yet either, Geelong's forwards arent exactly the pinnacle of excellence. We will however, have to contend with a lot more ball coming in, and coming in fast, which we havent had to in the 3 games so far.

The ruck division is no further advanced than it has been in the past. The midfield is better that's for sure. The forward line is still lacking a FF and Cloke still roams too far looking for kicks and his kicking at goal is still poor.

The game plan really hasnt altered that much if you go by the pre season games. So that doesnt actually inspire too much hope against other teams that have shown up our game plan before. The few times they do go thru the guts, they get easy goals. But it is an exception, rather than the rule.

The short game still shows up our poor passing game with a lot of unforced errors in a high possesion game plan. The last game against Essendon, the amount of unforced errors was abysmal. Soft kicks falling short time and time again. If we have the same lapses tomorrow night, watch the consequences. Even worse if its during the season.

So, are we any better? Perhaps/ probably. If so, have other teams progressed faster? We dont know yet. We are still chasing hawthorn. Will a fit Hawthorn have improved on last year, because they didnt have a totally dominant H&A season. They really only put it together in the finals. So they have room to improve also. Not too mention other teams that are on the way up.

The hype coming out of the club I think may belie a belief, maybe they havent shown all their cards yet. But to me it rings hollow. They themselves cant know for sure where they are really positioned in relation to a number of teams. If we were a team that set trends, then maybe, but MM is a conservative coach and he is reactive. So his style of play needs to be flawlessly executed, if it is going to be better than some other teams.

The hype from the club just smacks of eddie realising he promised us the world all those years ago and he has failed to deliver the most important thing. Sometimes he is just best shutting his gob. A bit like the less you heard of Sheedy, the better you knew his team was doing.

 

[Pie eyed]

and once again, why has it taken him so long to produce?

And further to that, if indeed we are better this year, how much better are we?

A lot seem to be placing a lot of faith in the pre season results. For mine, they mean nothing. Not too much has occured in those games to make me think other than bigger bodies and quicker by foot, the team has changed that much.

The backline hasnt been tested, so is it any better than last year? Tomorrow night wont give us a full indication yet either, Geelong's forwards arent exactly the pinnacle of excellence. We will however, have to contend with a lot more ball coming in, and coming in fast, which we haven't had to in the 3 games so far.

The ruck division is no further advanced than it has been in the past. The midfield is better that's for sure. The forward line is still lacking a FF and Cloke still roams too far looking for kicks and his kicking at goal is still poor.

The game plan really hasnt altered that much if you go by the pre season games. So that doesnt actually inspire too much hope against other teams that have shown up our game plan before. The few times they do go thru the guts, they get easy goals. But it is an exception, rather than the rule.

The short game still shows up our poor passing game with a lot of unforced errors in a high possesion game plan. The last game against Essendon, the amount of unforced errors was abysmal. Soft kicks falling short time and time again. If we have the same lapses tomorrow night, watch the consequences. Even worse if its during the season.

So, are we any better? Perhaps/ probably. If so, have other teams progressed faster? We dont know yet. We are still chasing hawthorn. Will a fit Hawthorn have improved on last year, because they didnt have a totally dominant H&A season. They really only put it together in the finals. So they have room to improve also. Not too mention other teams that are on the way up.

The hype coming out of the club I think may belie a belief, maybe they havent shown all their cards yet. But to me it rings hollow. They themselves cant know for sure where they are really positioned in relation to a number of teams. If we were a team that set trends, then maybe, but MM is a conservative coach and he is reactive. So his style of play needs to be flawlessly executed, if it is going to be better than some other teams.

The hype from the club just smacks of eddie realising he promised us the world all those years ago and he has failed to deliver the most important thing. Sometimes he is just best shutting his gob. A bit like the less you heard of Sheedy, the better you knew his team was doing.

Everything discussed in this and the other two Malthouse related threads hinges on how we perform this year. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
I don't feel there is an over-reaction to our practice and Nab Cup results from Collingwood supporters in discussions on our board.

I think there has been a fantastic reaction on the main board from our members and others to Carlton supporters self stimulation though....lol.
I think you have to take most of the main board threads with a dose of salt this time of year. There are only two sides with anything to look forward to for the next 2 weeks and the rest are all in the back seat screaming "are we there yet?"

Rounds 1-11 will tell the tale of this season for Collingwood.

AS far as noises coming from the club...they resisted any talk of Flags for a long time. Why would just suddenly change there tune to satisfy a few noisy dissenters. Generally most supporters are aware of where we are at list wise? The fact that the club and the supporters have the feeling a flag is nearing at the same time would only seem natural.
I really don't think Ed or the club are that petty or unfocused.

 

[FuManchu]

Everything discussed in this and the other two Malthouse related threads hinges on how we perform this year. I don't think anyone is disputing that.
I don't feel there is an over-reaction to our practice and Nab Cup results from Collingwood supporters in discussions on our board.

I think there has been a fantastic reaction on the main board from our members and others to Carlton supporters self stimulation though....lol.
I think you have to take most of the main board threads with a dose of salt this time of year. There are only two sides with anything to look forward to for the next 2 weeks and the rest are all in the back seat screaming "are we there yet?"

Rounds 1-11 will tell the tale of this season for Collingwood.

AS far as noises coming from the club...they resisted any talk of Flags for a long time. Why would just suddenly change there tune to satisfy a few noisy dissenters. Generally most supporters are aware of where we are at list wise? The fact that the club and the supporters have the feeling a flag is nearing at the same time would only seem natural.
I really don't think Ed or the club are that petty or unfocused.

Eddie is the consumate politician. Think about it. Two powerful identities at the club. One, a Collingwood man for life, the other at his 5th club. If at the end of an unsuccesful ten year relationship one has to posture to save his own neck to keep his position safe, then who do you think will do that?

Making all the noises now is setting the scene for a potential hard decision if need be. I might be wrong but I dont recall MM saying too much about this years prospects, as I said I could be wrong on that, but I am pretty sure Eddie has. If it doesnt come off, then Eddie has a ready made scapegoat. He has put all the pressure on MM, so too have the players with their comments. All I have read from MM is 'que sera sera'.

 

[Snag Breac]

We need a weekly Monday to Thursday night Cage Match thread.

We will have rotating list of topics:

Sack Mick.
Sack Eddie.
Can Maxwell hold his spot in the side.
Sack Rocca.
Fraser is a hack.
Didak is a bad role model.
Sack Bryan.
We should have drafted ruckmen in 2002/03.
and so on.

Intending participants should nominate after 3 quarter time but before the final siren of the Collingwood match before the next Monday's Cage Match.

The poster or posters (if working in conjunction or different manifestations of the same individual) deemed "The Winners" by virtue of a vote by fellow members on the Friday following each Cage Match will be an automatic inclusion for the following weeks Cage Match.

A limit of 10 posters will be accepted for each Cage Match but any Magpies board member can intermittently intercede (post short or one line posts designed to either goad their non-preferred participants or egg on their favorites). There will be a limit of 10 intercessions by any one non-participating poster per Cage Match, so choose you intercessions well.

As far as rule, apart from the "guidelines" above there are NO RULES.

Nominations for Next Monday nights Cage Match will open in the already specified period of Friday nights NAB Cup Final.

In the spirit of the competition and as it is my idea I will pre-nominate the following posters to kick off.
FuMancu
KissStephanie
Tess and last but not least
Col Davies.

This leaves 6 spots open for budding debating champions.

In light of the fact we already have 3 thread ripping into the MM tenure issue I will nominate a different Topic before kick-off on Monday....


Sound like a hoot......?

Register your interest here.

Registering, as requested. May I point out that you haven't included the topic, Women in Football - which, frankly, says a lot. Also missing;

Has Dale Thomas Failed to Realise His Potential?
Shane O'Bree - Hack!
Cloke - Can't Kick for Goal
Dawes Goes Missing
Bryan A Dud
Rookie X - Won't Make it at AFL Level
Anthony - Foward Line Clogger? (Won't get a run this week, but they'll come back to it)

As for the pre-nominated posters, you forgot the band of brothers - who may or may not all be Col Davies, and/or a mystery other, depending on perception. Can't wait.

 

[Pie eyed]

Eddie is the consumate politician. Think about it. Two powerful identities at the club. One, a Collingwood man for life, the other at his 5th club. If at the end of an unsuccesful ten year relationship one has to posture to save his own neck to keep his position safe, then who do you think will do that?

Making all the noises now is setting the scene for a potential hard decision if need be. I might be wrong but I dont recall MM saying too much about this years prospects, as I said I could be wrong on that, but I am pretty sure Eddie has. If it doesnt come off, then Eddie has a ready made scapegoat. He has put all the pressure on MM, so too have the players with their comments. All I have read from MM is 'que sera sera'.

I honestly think we read far too much into some simple actions.
Not that there may not be more too it but the tendency is to quite often over analyze and second guess some things about footy which in the wash are fairly predictable and fairly standard human nature issues.

 

[Pie eyed]

Registering, as requested. May I point out that you haven't included the topic, Women in Football - which, frankly, says a lot. Also missing;

Has Dale Thomas Failed to Realise His Potential?
Shane O'Bree - Hack!
Cloke - Can't Kick for Goal
Dawes Goes Missing
Bryan A Dud
Rookie X - Won't Make it at AFL Level
Anthony - Foward Line Clogger? (Won't get a run this week, but they'll come back to it)

As for the pre-nominated posters, you forgot the band of brothers - who may or may not all be Col Davies, and/or a mystery other, depending on perception. Can't wait.

They are covered by Col.
Perhaps I should use their collective name in future...

A "Collin of Nom de plume"

 

[FuManchu]

I honestly think we read far too much into some simple actions.
Not that there may not be more too it but the tendency is to quite often over analyze and second guess some things about footy which in the wash are fairly predictable and fairly standard human nature issues.

Nothing Eddie does is without an agenda. Whether you hit on the right one is the question. But in all of this, MM would know that Eddie will outlast him at the club no matter what.