Melbournes Drafting.. Terrible

[Junior24]

You can thank him yourself..
I believe he is at *unt road now with the rest of you ferals..

Let me know when Terry "All-Talk" Wallace finalizes your 255 year plan....

thats very unlady like, i thought you folk down at Junction oval were more refined than that.

I suppose Terry's 255 year plan is a little ambitious, but we cant all have 43 plus year plans like you guys. 1964 was a glorious year, but don't you think the rebuilding you did in the late 60's should be coming to bare its fruits some time soon?

 

[whelan=legend]

HAHAHA i love that word too. For example. Rabble beat the dee's to the tune of 49 points.

Another example, Rabble have made finals twice in twenty years hahahhahaha

 

[whelan=legend]

Precisely, and he didn't put up a fight either, just rolled right over.

CAC: The other factor is my family connection to Richmond. I grew up barracking for the Tigers. My great grand father played for them as did my father, he is also a life member. My grandfather’s ashes were sprinkled on Punt Road oval. The connection is very strong. It is unlikely that I would have moved to any other club at this time.

Get your facts straight you tool, you are clearly trolling. I got banned for nothing on the hawthorn board, i dont know why you are still here. Mods, anything? Give this man a holiday?

 

[saj_21]

Yes compare your post 2002 list to ours, i dont know what everyone is trying to prove with that.

The point is, i dont think this cameron has done anything to be regarded as such a great recruiter. Simply as that. If you want to prove me wrong, compare your list to that of geelongs or west coasts, and then show me the flag that he won for you as well. Im not trying to stir you all up. But why is this guy so highly regarded?

The reason i compared the list from 02 was becasue you said we had no good yungster and i think the comparison list would change your mind. Whether you think your list is better than ours or not is upto but i did proove we have good young players.

I believe our from 04-06 had a chance at winning a flag especially when the competittion was so even. We lacked the mental strength and a coach that could take us all the way.

 

[Junior24]

CAC: The other factor is my family connection to Richmond. I grew up barracking for the Tigers. My great grand father played for them as did my father, he is also a life member. My grandfather’s ashes were sprinkled on Punt Road oval. The connection is very strong. It is unlikely that I would have moved to any other club at this time.

Get your facts straight you tool, you are clearly trolling. I got banned for nothing on the hawthorn board, i dont know why you are still here. Mods, anything? Give this man a holiday?

Mate, read this thread from the begining. I brought up a perfectly good point on a thread that already existed. I basically wanted to know why Cameron was so highly regarded given the state of you list.

Even the most devoted Melbourne supporter can not possibly think your list is that great or it is full of great young kids. I love the tigers but i can atleast admit our list isnt fantastic, and although i think it is getting better, im not about to go on about how great unproven youngsters are!

Your all too precious and when it was clear that what i was saying was correct, the classic richmond put downs came out and it turned into a sh*t throwing contest.

Personally i cant see whats so great about Cameron, he hasnt done anything more that any other recruiter over the past 10 years.
Without attacking the tigers, what has he done that should make me as a tiger supporter happy that he is now at my club?

 

[CowboyFromHell]

Clearly you're life is very fulfilling and rewarding by coming to this forum and offering nothing but willing to slag off people for posting anything you in your infinite(tile) wisdom sees fit.

I'm still not sold. I agree with Goffa that we have been fantastic at late and rookie drafts at the top end I still stand by it, we've underachieved.
Maybe my heading was inflammatory and should have read "M's Drafting... Less Than Average.."

With the players he's drafted we have done nothing... One Grand Final appearance is not satisfactory and we should not be comfortable with it. I truly hope the last 3/4 years of draft picks can get us across the line with that flag and we can stick it up the pies and the dons and carltons and tigers and everyone else. Not sure we will with these players.
We're still short a forward or two CHF and FF, Midfield seem very one paced, not explosiveness besides Davey, and backline well.. when N Carroll who is a great trier is your no 1 FB week in week out no need to say more.

Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic.. please tell me why i'm wrong

I don't truly believe that you can seriously count the draft from 1991... back then it was far more of a stab in the dark, hence the reason why there are alot of players who went nowhere. If you look at it from simply a CAC point of view, then we have done rather well.

Take 1999 for example. We missed out on our first round selection through salary cap issues, yet still landed Green, Wheatley, Bruce and Whelan. 2000 we missed some picks also, but still landed Thompson with pick 16. The super draft was a Barry Crocker for us, no doubt about it. But since then we have drafted superbly. We have a great crop of young players who are ready to take off.

And by the way, I don't have to give you shit. Anyone with half a brain who supports Melbourne KNOWS how we have drafted, I don't really need to spell it out again. Your opening gambit of our drafting being "terrible" was inaccurate and you know it.

 

[whelan=legend]

Personally i cant see whats so great about Cameron, he hasnt done anything more that any other recruiter over the past 10 years.
Without attacking the tigers, what has he done that should make me as a tiger supporter happy that he is now at my club?

Bold = Proven (except for 2008 draftees)
Italics = Improving

Kyle Cheney - draftee 2008
Jack Grimes - draftee 2008 (highly rated)
Addam Maric - draftee 2008 (highly rated)
Stefan Martin - draftee 2008
Tom McNamara - draftee 2008
Cale Morton - draftee 2008 (highly rated)

Isaac Weetra - 0 games - going into 2nd year of AFL footy
Colin Garland - 2 - 2nd
Jace Bode - 4 - 2nd
James Frawley - 9 - 2nd
Ricky Petterd - 9 - 2nd

Matthew Warnock - 4 - 3rd
Simon Buckley - 6 - 3rd
Clint Bartram - 23 - 3rd
Nathan Jones - 29 - 3rd

John Meesen - 2 - 4th
Michael Newton - 10 - 4th
Lynden Dunn - 23 - 4th (half - half)
Matthew Bate - 33 - 4th

Chris A. Johnson - 21 - 5th
Colin Sylvia - 52 - 5th
Brock McLean - 61 - 5th
Aaron Davey - 82 - 5th

Paul A. Johnson - 27 - 6th
Daniel Bell - 45 - 6th
Brent Moloney - 61 - 6th
Nathan Carroll - 62 - 6th
Jared Rivers - 64 - 6th


IMO that is a good list of youngsters and as you can see he has a great strike rate ever since the horror year of 2001.

 

[CowboyFromHell]

Mate, read this thread from the begining. I brought up a perfectly good point on a thread that already existed. I basically wanted to know why Cameron was so highly regarded given the state of you list.

Even the most devoted Melbourne supporter can not possibly think your list is that great or it is full of great young kids. I love the tigers but i can atleast admit our list isnt fantastic, and although i think it is getting better, im not about to go on about how great unproven youngsters are!

Your all too precious and when it was clear that what i was saying was correct, the classic richmond put downs came out and it turned into a sh*t throwing contest.

Personally i cant see whats so great about Cameron, he hasnt done anything more that any other recruiter over the past 10 years.
Without attacking the tigers, what has he done that should make me as a tiger supporter happy that he is now at my club?

If you haven't got it already, we don't give a shit about you or your opinions on here. Do us all a favour and leave before you embarrass yourself further.

 

[Junior24]

Bold = Proven (except for 2008 draftees)
Italics = Improving

Kyle Cheney - draftee 2008
Jack Grimes - draftee 2008 (highly rated)
Addam Maric - draftee 2008 (highly rated)
Stefan Martin - draftee 2008
Tom McNamara - draftee 2008
Cale Morton - draftee 2008 (highly rated)

Isaac Weetra - 0 games - going into 2nd year of AFL footy
Colin Garland - 2 - 2nd
Jace Bode - 4 - 2nd
James Frawley - 9 - 2nd
Ricky Petterd - 9 - 2nd

Matthew Warnock - 4 - 3rd
Simon Buckley - 6 - 3rd
Clint Bartram - 23 - 3rd
Nathan Jones - 29 - 3rd

John Meesen - 2 - 4th
Michael Newton - 10 - 4th
Lynden Dunn - 23 - 4th (half - half)
Matthew Bate - 33 - 4th

Chris A. Johnson - 21 - 5th
Colin Sylvia - 52 - 5th
Brock McLean - 61 - 5th
Aaron Davey - 82 - 5th

Paul A. Johnson - 27 - 6th
Daniel Bell - 45 - 6th
Brent Moloney - 61 - 6th
Nathan Carroll - 62 - 6th
Jared Rivers - 64 - 6th


IMO that is a good list of youngsters and as you can see he has a great strike rate ever since the horror year of 2001.

Well you can remove all from the 08 draft, only because they havent proven anything and even though they might become great players, they havent played a game yet, i doubt you would have drafted them if they werent seen as good players.

And while the players in bold are proven players, except for Brock McLean (superstar) and Nathan Jones (getting there) none of them are superstars.

 

[eliasd82]

Mate, read this thread from the begining. I brought up a perfectly good point on a thread that already existed. I basically wanted to know why Cameron was so highly regarded given the state of you list.

Even the most devoted Melbourne supporter can not possibly think your list is that great or it is full of great young kids. I love the tigers but i can atleast admit our list isnt fantastic, and although i think it is getting better, im not about to go on about how great unproven youngsters are!

Your all too precious and when it was clear that what i was saying was correct, the classic richmond put downs came out and it turned into a sh*t throwing contest.

Personally i cant see whats so great about Cameron, he hasnt done anything more that any other recruiter over the past 10 years.
Without attacking the tigers, what has he done that should make me as a tiger supporter happy that he is now at my club?

God damn are you still here??

I am a massively devoted supporter.... i think our list could get us anywhere between 14th - 4th... depending on injury, confidence and a little bit of luck...

Classic examples of this season - North, Collingwood and Port - all predicted to finish in the bottom 8 all featured and won finals.

No one here cares what more idiotic statements you have to make.
Richmond has been the whipping boys of the competition the last 20 years and as long as you have Terry All talk at the helm you will be for another 20.

Now go back to your shanty and cook me some dinner with one of your many wooden spoons.

 

[ausde13]

The point of that list is to show what Craig Cameron has done in the last 5 draft compared to what your recruiters have done, now I don't think he is the best in the league but I think he has a solid record and is improving every year.

As for the flag he won it, despite being with us for 10 years I think his recruiters flag is still to come, which is why I'm disappointed he left because the glory comes 5 years after the recruiters have done their best work. He made good selections in 97, 98, and 99 but he wasn't building a premiership list. It was a time where we went from last to the finals then back down and took solid picks in 99 before making a grand final. Chris Lamb will go down as a mistake but most Melbourne supporters believe he could play and he wasn't given the right opportunities. Scott Thompson was a great pick in 2000 and we got the best we could from him when he went home. 2001 he made mistakes, Craig Ellis, Luke Molan, Aaron Rogers and Nick Smith the year after, but Ellis, Molan and Smith all had bad injuries and I don't have a clue what happened to Rogers, but Cameron learnt to go for talent over height, hopefully one day he can pick better talls because it is a weakness of his. That said he got stars in 2002 in Bell and Rivers and after a poor 2003 Daniher demanded harder and tougher players, and since then Cameron has delivered the goods, and has made a group that Dean Bailey will focus on winning the flag with.

I agree he got a lot better over the last 5/4 drafts.. He did miss on most if not all of his talls selections, he was told to chase talls remember beacuse we needed to rebuild our spind, especially defenders.

Stars.. not sure Bell is, love ding dong but he is still developing but he was out top pick in 2002. Thats 5 years and I don't think sides each week plan for him...
JRiv he is one of the best pack markers going around and is one of the most courages players running with the flight of the ball. Star.. hopefully he beacomes a star week in week out (i know I know he has been injured..)

 

[JuveRule]

Junior24, could we spell it out any more clearly for you??

Here are the 100+ gamers he unearthed in his first 5 years:

1997
#1 - Johnstone (160 games + B&F)
#66 - Nathan Brown (146)
#77 - Guy Rigoni (107)
1998
PSD - Troy Simmonds (157 in total)
1999
#19 - Brad Green (166) - he traded Troy Longmuir for pick 19
#20 - Paul Wheatley (113)
#50 - Matty Whelan (128)
#64 - Cam Bruce (162)
Rookie - Simon Godfrey (105)
2000
#16 - Scott Thompson (109 total) - returned to Adelaide homesick
2001
Traded for Bizzell (88 for Melb, more if not for injury)

And one on the side, he got Ben Holland to Melbourne in 2003 for pick 21...Richmond ended up picking Alex Gilmour (??).

Then add in names such as Bell, Rivers, Carroll, Sylvia, McLean, Johnson, Davey, Moloney (for Woewodin, top trade), Bate, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Bartram, Frawley and Petterd. Have a look at those more recent names to get an idea of his recent form and you should very happy that he's now at Richmond.

Don't come and question CAC's ability after having a cursory look at our list and quickly dismissing it. The people who rate him as a good recruiter know a hell of a lot more than you or I do about recruiting and in any case, being a recruiter goes beyond watching some blokes at a draft camp and reading out names in November. Maybe you're focusing on our on-field success too much. You cannot deny that in recent times we've had a list that could win a premiership but a mixture of injuries and poor coaching have rendered us unable to do so.

Now take your short-sighted and ill-informed opinions elsewhere. Jokers like you shouldn't be allowed near computers.

 

[ausde13]

Junior24, could we spell it out any more clearly for you??

Here are the 100+ gamers he unearthed in his first 5 years:

1997
#1 - Johnstone (160 games + B&F)
#66 - Nathan Brown (146)
#77 - Guy Rigoni (107)
1998
PSD - Troy Simmonds (157 in total)
1999
#19 - Brad Green (166) - he traded Troy Longmuir for pick 19
#20 - Paul Wheatley (113)
#50 - Matty Whelan (128)
#64 - Cam Bruce (162)
Rookie - Simon Godfrey (105)
2000
#16 - Scott Thompson (109 total) - returned to Adelaide homesick
2001
Traded for Bizzell (88 for Melb, more if not for injury)

And one on the side, he got Ben Holland to Melbourne in 2003 for pick 21...Richmond ended up picking Alex Gilmour (??).

Then add in names such as Bell, Rivers, Carroll, Sylvia, McLean, Johnson, Davey, Moloney (for Woewodin, top trade), Bate, Dunn, Newton, Jones, Bartram, Frawley and Petterd. Have a look at those more recent names to get an idea of his recent form and you should very happy that he's now at Richmond.

Don't come and question CAC's ability after having a cursory look at our list and quickly dismissing it. The people who rate him as a good recruiter know a hell of a lot more than you or I do about recruiting and in any case, being a recruiter goes beyond watching some blokes at a draft camp and reading out names in November. Maybe you're focusing on our on-field success too much. You cannot deny that in recent times we've had a list that could win a premiership but a mixture of injuries and poor coaching have rendered us unable to do so.

Now take your short-sighted and ill-informed opinions elsewhere. Jokers like you shouldn't be allowed near computers.

Again my original stats were only National draft..

Juve got to say not 100% sold on that. Yes great look at all of those 100 odd gamers. Should they have played 100 games of AFL? Some no..

- Doggy was great in getting every thing out of himself not a star, TJ 1 B&F for a no 1 draft pick not good enough, Rigo again got everything out of himself and was a more damaging player than doggy. Below Ave outcome because of TJ

- The karate kid as all big men take time to develop, we didn't see the best of him good selection

- Bruce fantastic pick, Greeny has been a little patchy at times but when he is on a very good footy player. Good picks. Wheels consitantly good at what he does, close to best tackler in the league.
Whets and Godders shouldn't have played 100 in mymind. Godders trier at best, Wheets always looks good dropping back in class but for mine is a 9 point specialst in the preseason comp

-ST good pick indeedy and a shame we didn't get to bear those fruits, was it Moloney we took for that pick..Moloney has not shown us what he can really be capable of becaus of injury.

- Ben holland you are kidding right.... We love his moxie but he has one opponent each year pencilled in to beat, junior rocca.

You are all over rating Ding Dong too, he's been hear 5 years. I think we over rate a few players. Anyway just my opinion on it all.
Dimebag foreva

 

[JuveRule]

Comment on the rest of my post. He built a premiership-winning list, there's no doubt to that. He can't be blamed for our not winning a premiership or even featuring more heavily in the finals.

I don't know the exact stats but it's rare for someone picked past 50 to go on and get to 100 games.

As for Holland, well let me put it this way (and I'm not saying it was a piece of recruiting genius)...in 03 we already had picks 3 and 5 and Chris Johnson as a father/son, so basically he knew early who he'd get and therefore with pick 21 was able to take someone who was proven at AFL level. Take a look at the 10 players following that pick 21: Cam Thurley, Matthew Moody, Chad Jones, Harry Miller, Daniel McConnell, Adam Campbell, Jay Nash, Tim Schmidt, Brad Symes, Josh Krueger. I doubt any of them could do the "Dutchy Special" role on Rocca.

Finally, i hope you agree with me when i say that Bell came of age this year and frankly i can only see him improving. Anyone who actually watched him this year can't argue with that. Remember he's still 22, it's very promising.

 

[Deenamite]

Comment on the rest of my post. He built a premiership-winning list, there's no doubt to that. He can't be blamed for our not winning a premiership or even featuring more heavily in the finals.

I don't know the exact stats but it's rare for someone picked past 50 to go on and get to 100 games.

As for Holland, well let me put it this way (and I'm not saying it was a piece of recruiting genius)...in 03 we already had picks 3 and 5 and Chris Johnson as a father/son, so basically he knew early who he'd get and therefore with pick 21 was able to take someone who was proven at AFL level. Take a look at the 10 players following that pick 21: Cam Thurley, Matthew Moody, Chad Jones, Harry Miller, Daniel McConnell, Adam Campbell, Jay Nash, Tim Schmidt, Brad Symes, Josh Krueger. I doubt any of them could do the "Dutchy Special" role on Rocca.

Finally, i hope you agree with me when i say that Bell came of age this year and frankly i can only see him improving. Anyone who actually watched him this year can't argue with that. Remember he's still 22, it's very promising.

I agree with all of that. The 2003 draft was quite weak and McLean and Cooney were the pick of the lot. This was identified by CAC and selected Dutchy as a KPP strengthener, which he is.

 

[dee-molishon]

That stat is interesting but doesn't necesarily reflect our drafting abillity. Craig Cameron just got poached to Richmond and he is renwed as one of the best recruiters in the business. Have a look at the Dees 1997 rookie draft, its pretty amazing. Robertson and McDonald. They've played over 200 games each.

I think you should put a little bit more thought into your posts mate

Just because u are regard as one of the best recruiters in the game doesnt mean u are.

All talent scouts have hits and misses and cameron is no different. Having said that i dont think he is as good as most of u rave on, he hasnt delivered us a premiership and has had plenty of time to do so.

If you are a good recruiter u build a team from the ground up like stephen wells did at geelong. Cameron has had over 10 years to build a team up for us and hasnt delivered. As they say the proof is in the pudding. The problem with cameron is and im not sure how much it had to do with the coaching staff is that he drafted too much on needs, like hardness, talls, pace etc etc. If we had just taken the best player instead of looking at our list and saying what we must get we may have won a premiership.

The cats and eagles did this, just took the best player and they have plenty of holes and deficenices in their teams but still won premierships.

As for saying richmond poached cameron because he was re-knowed as a great recruiter, give it a break. Richmonds recruiting staff has to be the worst in league history, they would take ANYONE they could get their hands on.

 

[JuveRule]

Just because u are regard as one of the best recruiters in the game doesnt mean u are.

All talent scouts have hits and misses and cameron is no different. Having said that i dont think he is as good as most of u rave on, he hasnt delivered us a premiership and has had plenty of time to do so.

If you are a good recruiter u build a team from the ground up like stephen wells did at geelong. Cameron has had over 10 years to build a team up for us and hasnt delivered. As they say the proof is in the pudding. The problem with cameron is and im not sure how much it had to do with the coaching staff is that he drafted too much on needs, like hardness, talls, pace etc etc. If we had just taken the best player instead of looking at our list and saying what we must get we may have won a premiership.

Oh please read what i've posted before!! All a recruiter can do is build a premiership-winning list and Cameron did that. The evidence is there - 1st after Rd 18 in '04, 2nd behind West Coast prior to our post mid-year break blackout in 05, 3rd after Rd 20 last year. Clearly we had a list that was good enough to match it with the contenders. When it comes down to those stages of a season listed above, there's nothing a recruiter can do to deliver a premiership - it's in the hands of the coaching and fitness panels.

And let's not forget the two young gentlemen who practically got us into the Grand Final in 2000 - Bruce & Green in that unforgettable last quarter against the Blues in the qualifying final (before Farmer worked his magic two weeks later against the Roos) - they were Cameron's picks and without them I doubt we would've made it to that final day in September.

Building a team up from the ground does not necessarily make someone a good recruiter. It all depends on what state the particular team is in when the recruiter arrives. For example, if a new recruiter joined Geelong for the 08 season, his challenge would be to maintain their premiership-winning list and would therefore be judged accordingly.

 

[ausde13]

Not trying to be silly and argue for the hell of it but still not sold Juve. I'm a maybe on that, a very big maybe but we have been in positions to contend with the players the recruiting dept has picked up but

Ten years = 0 flags. **** 1965 onwards = 0 flags

I recall that at certain periods drafted specific positions ie for 2 or 3 drafts we went for talls, and more specifically tall defenders... that didn't really work out for us condsidering the only two of those we drafted that are still here, jRiv and Carroll who was shopped at draft time. The rest dud's.

Greeny and Bruce have been good for us, especially Bruce, but will never be seen as greats of our club (I'm being premiture on Bruce).

Your last lines... "Building a team up from the ground does not necessarily make someone a good recruiter"
huh? I would have thought that is a prerequiste of a recruiter. It is two fold. If the team is not contending then build up, if it is contending continue to keep it contending, much of a muchness for mine. Find the best players you can. Anyway I think we've probably flogged this one.
Merry Xmas.

No 13 Yze

 

[Deenamite]

He did what he could but the players didnt play to their potential in the crucial games.

 

[JuveRule]

Yeah i think it is two-fold. At the end of the day though i wouldn't call our recruiting over the past ten years "terrible". God only knows how it would've turned out with a different coaching panel, that's just footy for you.

 

[dee-molishon]

Yeah i think it is two-fold. At the end of the day though i wouldn't call our recruiting over the past ten years "terrible". God only knows how it would've turned out with a different coaching panel, that's just footy for you.

Agree juve. It is very much a lot of things that take into account when winning a premiership. Injuries being a MAJOR part of the puzzle.

Agreed coaching staff hasnt been up to it. But that is what is so sad about this game, coaches get the sack and take all responsibilty, since when do u ever hear a recruiter get the arse for fielding a poor team? NEVER.

The fact remains we havent won a premiership for over forty years now, it that fact should be looked at collectively not just from at the coach that have copped the arse over the years for not delivering. Players, recruiting staff, medico's and board should be all held responisble not just one department.

 

[FOOOOTY]

Get your facts straight you tool, you are clearly trolling. I got banned for nothing on the hawthorn board,

They are a little sensitive the Hawks aren't they?

"OH SHTOP IT" (whiny voice)

 

[AllStar7]

I think my IQ just dropped about 20 points after reading this thread.

What the hell is going on here? A Richmond supporter is abusing our past recruiting manager who is now their recruiting manager?
So essentially this said moron is having a go at his own club?

Dear lord, why oh why do they let Richmond fans use the interweb?


P.S.- With so many wooden spoons and priority picks, where is your superstar? You bought one, but some of his parts broke... shame they don't give refunds at the Whitten Oval

 

[ohwhenthesaints]

Again my original stats were only National draft..

Juve got to say not 100% sold on that. Yes great look at all of those 100 odd gamers. Should they have played 100 games of AFL? Some no..

- Doggy was great in getting every thing out of himself not a star, TJ 1 B&F for a no 1 draft pick not good enough, Rigo again got everything out of himself and was a more damaging player than doggy. Below Ave outcome because of TJ

- The karate kid as all big men take time to develop, we didn't see the best of him good selection

- Bruce fantastic pick, Greeny has been a little patchy at times but when he is on a very good footy player. Good picks. Wheels consitantly good at what he does, close to best tackler in the league.
Whets and Godders shouldn't have played 100 in mymind. Godders trier at best, Wheets always looks good dropping back in class but for mine is a 9 point specialst in the preseason comp

-ST good pick indeedy and a shame we didn't get to bear those fruits, was it Moloney we took for that pick..Moloney has not shown us what he can really be capable of becaus of injury.

- Ben holland you are kidding right.... We love his moxie but he has one opponent each year pencilled in to beat, junior rocca.

You are all over rating Ding Dong too, he's been hear 5 years. I think we over rate a few players. Anyway just my opinion on it all.
Dimebag foreva

Ridiculous comment about Brown Dog and Rigo, absoulute sensational pick ups at 60+, What more could you want than blokes squeezing 100% of their abilioty out of themselves.

 

[Deestroy]

I think this thread has run its course.