Hot Topic Michael Voss - Coaching in 2026. Should he remain beyond that?

[Arr0w]

Mason Cox gets a game at Collingwood.
Didn’t know what a football was until he was 23 years old.

What happened to Flys fundamentals from 2023 to 2024

 

[JustaBattler]

Mason Cox gets a game at Collingwood.
Didn’t know what a football was until he was 23 years old.

Cox is a premiership player and is now (just) depth at Collingwood - who ( btw) aren't paying their ruckman (who btw destroyed TDK) $1M or (even if you are St Kilda) $1.5M+ to play.

Nice try at a deflection though....I'm a member and supporter of Carlton Stamos - but I dont need to kid myself about some of the players running around for us though - they aren't finals quality players and that is NOT on Voss.

 

[Flaggers22]

I think you need some context, see below

Yeah, it looks like we're making slightly different points.

"Basics and fundamentals" is completely a genetic term, there are no details.

I think the term is pretty well understood in football discourse, and there are enough contextual clues to infer its meaning - they are talking about ball use/work. Perhaps my take on this is wrong, however, I still think the debate is worthwhile. I think it's fairly clear Voss has over-indexed on contested ball, possibly to the point where other aspects of the game are being neglected.

Just because a coach doesn't mention it, doesn't mean its not part of a training strategy

Again just to clarify, the claim is not that it's not a part of training. Anyway, I think it's useful to take people at face value, when Voss regurgitates the phrase 'contest and pressure' he is revealing a bias towards that aspect of the game, which makes me question if other aspects of the game are garnering as much attention. I think this bias is reflected in the team selection too. I look at his preferred 23 and I think about 75% of them are more suited to the contested aspects of the game than the uncontested. To me this seems unbalanced. One could argue that this is the fault of the list managers (there's some merit to this claim), however, I think he's consistently not selecting players who would address some of these deficiencies.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

 

[Soapy V]

Yeah, it looks like we're making slightly different points.

I think the term is pretty well understood in football discourse, and there are enough contextual clues to infer its meaning - they are talking about ball use/work. Perhaps my take on this is wrong, however, I still think the debate is worthwhile. I think it's fairly clear Voss has over-indexed on contested ball, possibly to the point where other aspects of the game are being neglected.

Again just to clarify, the claim is not that it's not a part of training. Anyway, I think it's useful to take people at face value, when Voss regurgitates the phrase 'contest and pressure' he is revealing a bias towards that aspect of the game, which makes me question if other aspects of the game are garnering as much attention. I think this bias is reflected in the team selection too. I look at his preferred 23 and I think about 75% of them are more suited to the contested aspects of the game than the uncontested. To me this seems unbalanced. One could argue that this is the fault of the list managers (there's some merit to this claim), however, I think he's consistently not selecting players who would address some of these deficiencies.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Extremely well written and balanced post

 

[Soapy V]

It’ll be a huge fail if we don’t make finals but I think it’s more a failure of list management and the playing group than coaching. So long as we don’t finish bottom 4 and he doesnt “lose” the players then Voss should stay IMO. For what it’s worth I don’t think he’s lost the players but I think the players might have lost him. Massive clean out of players and football department (Head of football, List management team and assistant coaches) clean out is what is required IMO.

Yep. I believes it’s coaching and an unbalanced list.

I’m also a big believer that we have average standards for an elite sporting organisation

We need massive changes at years end. If we just change the LM or the senior Coach and nothing else we are going nowhere

Graham Wright, over to you

 

[Soapy V]

but I dont need to kid myself about some of the players running around for us though - they aren't finals quality players and that is NOT on Voss.

No doubt but by same token that doesn’t absolve him either

We have some very average players on our list but IMO we aren’t even close to getting the best out of many players

People seem to be pushing one or the other and it clouds discussion

Personally, I think it’s both combined with other factors

 

[Arr0w]

Yeah, it looks like we're making slightly different points.

Agreed

I think the term is pretty well understood in football discourse, and there are enough contextual clues to infer its meaning - they are talking about ball use/work.

Which differs from the interaction i was having with another poster

Ball use/work is part of a wide range of a gameplan, not the sole aspect

Perhaps my take on this is wrong, however, I still think the debate is worthwhile.

All debates are healthy if it's without agenda

I think it's fairly clear Voss has over-indexed on contested ball, possibly to the point where other aspects of the game are being neglected.

It's possible, but contested ball is still a strong feature of other clubs that are currently travelling well, Cats, Lions, Pies, Suns all top 5 in contested footy

Again just to clarify, the claim is not that it's not a part of training

it's the claim I was responding to and still waiting for clarity in evidence

. Anyway, I think it's useful to take people at face value, when Voss regurgitates the phrase 'contest and pressure' he is revealing a bias towards that aspect of the game, which makes me question if other aspects of the game are garnering as much attention. I think this bias is reflected in the team selection too. I look at his preferred 23 and I think about 75% of them are more suited to the contested aspects of the game than the uncontested. To me this seems unbalanced. One could argue that this is the fault of the list managers (there's some merit to this claim), however, I think he's consistently not selecting players who would address some of these deficiencies.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

List Management certainly has played a part, as such, which players have not been selected that have better footskills and or speed?

 

[myblueroan]

We are particularly bad at these things, especially for a team that played in a prelim, and then was 2nd on the ladder after 18 games.

Ex coaches have commented on how bad we are at these things.

If we’re training them with the same focus as Collingwood and Hawthorn, why are we so bad?

I think Matty Kennedy had a dig about it too.

 

[NavySteel]

A look at the stats this season is interesting reading. We are top 5 for a lot of good stats: i50, contested possessions, tackles, rebound 50 rate, contested marks… these are stats of a team that should be dominating games.

Where we are bottom are disposal efficiency, centre clearances (interestingly), shots, scores from all origins…

It’s a polarised situation at the moment. I do think we’re overdoing our contest work at the expense of other things, and that’s on Voss.

Although the centre clearance stuff is on players - while I love TDK, he often taps heaps to opposition, nobody or to empty space — that’s on him and doesn’t give us first look; we have to chase to win ball back and expel energy.

The transition in play and line performance… that’s on Voss and his line coaches, although if Voss defers blame only to the line coaches for this then that’s ungrounded. Voss needs to amalgamate the lines with the overall strategy. At the moment, our strategy is too rigid which has predictably ended up with the same results.

I think Voss can keep his job if others in the coaching staff can take a lead on general structure and tactics and let Voss focus being on a leader of the team. A move to a more fluid style like 2023 will see us actually cash in on the good stats while improving the poor stats.

 

[macky99]

I get it!

Not like I loved the last 5 weeks - it’s been hard to swallow.

I’m not here saying everything is great - or everything Voss or the players do is perfect.

I am willing to see out more of the season - we’ve all seen “sack-Voss” rhetoric before .

See the aftermath of the ** game 2023.

Voss most likely will be given to end of the year, l don't see that being defined by one game or a win against a poor West Coast team.

Our issues are both coaching and list management, we are very much stuck in the middle of the pack 8-12th with a heavy salary cap & a team that has lacked performance consistency for all of Voss's time, we don't have a well drilled gameplan, we are reactive in terms of tweaking the game plan.

l would expect to be significant change at year end, unless we are contend with being a mid-table team.

 

[Stamos]

Cox is a premiership player and is now (just) depth at Collingwood - who ( btw) aren't paying their ruckman (who btw destroyed TDK) $1M or (even if you are St Kilda) $1.5M+ to play.

Nice try at a deflection though....I'm a member and supporter of Carlton Stamos - but I dont need to kid myself about some of the players running around for us though - they aren't finals quality players and that is NOT on Voss.

It’s not deflection.
Cox is an example of my point.

A 23 year old who had never seen a footy was taught how to kick properly. How to position and block. And yes is now a premiership player.
All these things can be taught and improved. Other clubs do this better than us.

 

[Arr0w]

It’s not deflection.
Cox is an example of my point.

A 23 year old who had never seen a footy was taught how to kick properly. How to position and block. And yes is now a premiership player.
All these things can be taught and improved. Other clubs do this better than us.

Like 2E?

You have gone from we don't train them, to others doing it better

The question still remains, if Fly/Pies are training the basics and fundamentals, why the drop off from 2023 to 2024?

Make no mistake, this isn't about defending Carlton, it's the bizarre claim of only 2 sides do it because their coaches spoke of it publicly

 

[Stamos]

Like 2E?

You have gone from we don't train them, to others doing it better

The question still remains, if Fly/Pies are training the basics and fundamentals, why the drop off from 2023 to 2024?

Make no mistake, this isn't about defending Carlton, it's the bizarre claim of only 2 sides do it because their coaches spoke of it publicly

I never said we don’t do any training on fundamentals. I said it wasn’t our main focus, and that as a team we do them poorly.

Pies dropped off because their list isn’t that great and they got a few injuries.
23 was an aberration where they got very lucky. But they are an extremely well drilled side, and they get the best out of their ability.

I never said only two sides do it.
I used examples of some very successful coaches stating it publicly, as opposed to our coach.

 

[Arr0w]

I never said we don’t do any training on fundamentals. I said it wasn’t our main focus, and that as a team we do them poorly.

It's totally fine if you are framing this as opinion, but you seem to be claiming it as fact

Pies dropped off because their list isn’t that great and they got a few injuries.

Finally got there, as is the case with us, our list isn't that great and we've had injuries

But they are an extremely well drilled side, and they get the best out of their ability.

But it didn't serve them well from 2023 to 2024

I never said only two sides do it.
I used examples of some very successful coaches stating it publicly, as opposed to our coach.

Back to stating it publicly, like 16 other coaches haven't stated it, so it mustn't be the focus

If you are clinging to this as evidence, I'm not sure there will ever be a viable conclusion

I appreciate that you have responded respectfully though, well done

 

[CCurnow3picks]

Voss most likely will be given to end of the year, l don't see that being defined by one game or a win against a poor West Coast team.

Our issues are both coaching and list management, we are very much stuck in the middle of the pack 8-12th with a heavy salary cap & a team that has lacked performance consistency for all of Voss's time, we don't have a well drilled gameplan, we are reactive in terms of tweaking the game plan.

l would expect to be significant change at year end, unless we are contend with being a mid-table team.

Whether we end the season 8-12th is to be seen.

Pretty sure nobody is claiming a win over WCE is any kind of panacea.

What we have shown over the last 5 games is an ability to defend & an inability to transition effectively.

At least the WCE game showed a willingness to take the game on, run to support & much better delivery by foot - especially into F50.

I don’t have any agenda other than pragmatism - let’s see how the season unfolds, rather than use our poor start as a reason to emotionally blame the coach for everything that goes awry.

 

[jj1978]

I never said we don’t do any training on fundamentals. I said it wasn’t our main focus, and that as a team we do them poorly.

Pies dropped off because their list isn’t that great and they got a few injuries.
23 was an aberration where they got very lucky. But they are an extremely well drilled side, and they get the best out of their ability.

I never said only two sides do it.
I used examples of some very successful coaches stating it publicly, as opposed to our coach.

Agree their list is average, even in 2010-11. They just always work for one another and are side by side. But the big thing is they’re so well drilled they know where to position and use their skilled ball players to perfection. It’s not fortune that Daicos, Pendles, Sidebottom get fed the ball whenever possible. The give offs and returns to the little sh## are by design from the coach.

And working on basics is not only kicking and hand passing, its positioning, tackling, as well which we also have low IQ in.

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Finally got there, as is the case with us, our list isn't that great and we've had injuries

Oh, finally got there did we?

Ok, why weren't the injuries and our poor list a factor from second half of 2023 season?

Let's see if we can eventually get there...

 

[Arr0w]

Oh, finally got there did we?

Ok, why weren't the injuries and our poor list a factor from second half of 2023 season?

Let's see if we can eventually get there...

So we might have been training the "Basics and fundamentals "?

 

[Blue_Fusion]

So we might have been training the "Basics and fundamentals "?

Right... can't give a proper answer?

Let's try again:

Why weren't the injuries and our poor list a factor from second half of 2023 season?

 

[WyntersGame_]

For me it’s to see the transition in our game plan from contested & defensive - as a result inept offensively, so a plan that sets our ball movement free.

I want to see a team confident enough to transition the ball, running to support, also holding shape behind the ball.

I want to see us continue the search improvement, towards a better balanced game outcome - that brings #17 within reach.

I don’t see that any one person, can achieve this - it’s needs our list & our coaches to buy into it.

If we can pull that off - our coaches have done their job.

The first 4 weeks were abysmal, but you could see effort & fundamental defensive strength.

What I liked today, albeit a few steps too far, we let the shackles free. We tried players in new positions, we brought in youth.

Today was a step forward in plenty of ways - I’d like Voss & the team more time to evolve further .

I personally don't think you can take much away from the West Coast game. It was essentially a nothing game, aside from offering the players a bit of confidence and get the pressure valve release a little.

Defensive strength has never really been our main issue. The real problem lies in our inability to evolve beyond that — especially in tightening up aspects like transitional defence.

Over the past four years, have we honestly seen anything that suggests these improvements are coming? I haven’t — and that’s what concerns me. There’s been little change. We tend to get by on grit and individual talent, but that only takes you so far. Voss and the coaching team need to actually coach.

In my view, if we don’t see genuine growth by season’s end, Voss has to go. We can't keep backing him into a fifth year purely on the hope that he'll eventually evolve into a better coach. Maybe what we've seen so far is the peak of his ability. There’s nothing wrong with that in an assistant coach — but as a head coach, you need to bring it all together. You have to show an ability to adapt, to learn, and to develop a game plan that suits the modern game

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Come on Arr0w .. you wanted to cherry pick, now when it's flipped, you just LOL?

Surely you have the answers here?

 

[Arr0w]

Come on Arr0w .. you wanted to cherry pick, now when it's flipped, you just LOL?

Surely you have the answers here?

I've already shared the answered, to your goal shifting question

 

[Blue_Fusion]

I've already shared the answered, to your goal shifting question

You haven't...

It's not goal shifting, you said the list is in poor shape and the injuries are the reason why we're struggling...

But those didn't matter when we went on a tear in second half of 2023...

Why?

 

[Arr0w]

You haven't...

It's not goal shifting, you said the list is in poor shape and the injuries are the reason why we're struggling...

But those didn't matter when we went on a tear in second half of 2023...

Why?

Let's get back on topic

The claim was that we don't train the fundamentals or as well as sides like the Pies, because Fly stated it publicly

Clearly this also rules out 16 clubs

But if the Pies (along with the Hawks) were the only club to train these aspects, why the decline from 2023 to 2024?

Response was, their list wasn't great and had injuries in 2024

Back half of 23, we went on a run, was the reason also we trained the fundamentals? Was our decline back half of 24 also due to injury, and or not having a strong list

Absolutely laughable to suggest only 2 clubs train fundamentals, due to stating so publicly

Hope that clears it up for you

 

[Blue_Fusion]

Let's get back on topic

The claim was that we don't train the fundamentals or as well as sides like the Pies, because Fly stated it publicly

Clearly this also rules out 16 clubs

But if the Pies (along with the Hawks) were the only club to train these aspects, why the decline from 2023 to 2024?

Response was, their list wasn't great and had injuries in 2024

Back half of 23, we went on a run, was the reason also we trained the fundamentals? Was our decline back half of 24 also due to injury, and or not having a strong list

Absolutely laughable to suggest only 2 clubs train fundamentals, due to stating so publicly

Hope that clears it up for you

Nah... all you did was reiterate a point you made earlier.

You haven't answered the question... why were we able to go on such a run with injuries and list in poor shape?

Guess, we'll never get there because you can't answer it...