Hot Topic Michael Voss - Okay, he's gone ... but when?

[The Blue Weirdo]

Nobody pumping tires.

Just wondering why nobody is letting the air out today?

Even our terrible list of players looked like champions today.

What caused this phenomenon? Great list management, great coaching...or weak opposition?

I'd be flabbergasted if I read anymore negative comments about Austin and our list management.

 

[Beyond Blue]

I remember people writing off Voss mid 2023, appeased the masses with making finals and more

Last year start reasonably well and went into a tail spin for a number of reasons

Back to starting poorly, wondering what people's pass mark is for the rest/end of season

It’ll be a huge fail if we don’t make finals but I think it’s more a failure of list management and the playing group than coaching. So long as we don’t finish bottom 4 and he doesnt “lose” the players then Voss should stay IMO. For what it’s worth I don’t think he’s lost the players but I think the players might have lost him. Massive clean out of players and football department (Head of football, List management team and assistant coaches) clean out is what is required IMO.

 

[Arr0w]

You need to watch the replay i think

I'm happy how I see the game

People whinge that we are too defensive, if you want to open up those attacking layers, you also open up the counter

We kept the Eagles to their 2nd lowest score, while scoring more than Dockers and Lions

 

[Stamos]

I was more interested in the starting point

Which other coaches have come out publicly and stated their focus is "basics and fundamentals"

McRae, Mitchell, Simpson

 

[Arr0w]

McRae, Mitchell, Simpson

Simpson is no longer coaching, but fair enough

Do you then think 16 other clubs don't train the basics and fundamentals, because those coaches didn't comment publicly

 

[CCurnow3picks]

Would love to see the post and view counts of the forum after a loss compared to a win.

The world we live in now I guess

Exactly

 

[CCurnow3picks]

Even our terrible list of players looked like champions today.

What caused this phenomenon? Great list management, great coaching...or weak opposition?

A CFC super- special!

A base of great transition.

Sprinkled with sour errors & sweetly grilled belief.

 

[CCurnow3picks]

You might be very patient

But we have been heading south leading on from tail end of last season

Went through a preseason and came out and lost to tiggies

That set the tone and we’ve been fading in 2nd halves …whilst other teams stay strong for 4 quarters

There’s frustration

I get it!

Not like I loved the last 5 weeks - it’s been hard to swallow.

I’m not here saying everything is great - or everything Voss or the players do is perfect.

I am willing to see out more of the season - we’ve all seen “sack-Voss” rhetoric before .

See the aftermath of the ** game 2023.

 

[CCurnow3picks]

I'm happy how I see the game

People whinge that we are too defensive, if you want to open up those attacking layers, you also open up the counter

We kept the Eagles to their 2nd lowest score, while scoring more than Dockers and Lions

That’s it.

It’s such a balancing act.

Adelaide look amazing on transition, until they don’t.

A transition game looks great - I love those goals, but if you can’t defend behind the ball - out the back it goes.

Holding defensive shape & kneeling at the alter of “the contest” is the base, for a team lacking confidence.

I am hoping today helps us release the grind & become more attacking.

Otherwise we’ll keep getting picked off.

 

[Arr0w]

That’s it.

It’s such a balancing act.

Adelaide look amazing on transition, until they don’t.

A transition game looks great - I love those goals, but if you can’t defend behind the ball - out the back it goes.

Holding defensive shape & kneeling at the alter of “the contest” is the base, for a team lacking confidence.

I am hoping today helps us release the grind & become more attacking.

Otherwise we’ll keep getting picked off.

They say sport is above the shoulders, hopefully the outing has a positive effect on the group

Although, with such a low level of pressure, I would read too much, on any changes

North's pressure will be high, we'll get a better read

 

[JustOneTime]

We have a tight cap, a list that will move into an age profile we don't want to contemplate in the next 2 years and we have achieved not much. We are potentially facing a reset/rebuild to kick off our next 3 years, or alternatively, a 12 year rebuild.

We are sitting with a loss to the tiggies and a win over the mighty WCE to balance out our start to the year. I agree, it doesnt really balance; just trying to keep some positivity for a second.

I'm not sure who is keeping the right perspective here. People who don't like the negativity when it is all pretty much negative right now (list mgmt and coaching). Because the output is the key measure and we're down the bottom with clubs who are rebuilding or using not much of their salary cap. It is just not about being down the bottom, it is about the hack high transition approach that permeates most of our games. It isnt about one game lost (tigers) or one game won (WCEs).

We play awful football, stop start, hack it. And yes, we occasionally and i mean occasionally play overlap exciting footy when we finally fight instead of adopting flight.

I really stick to the fact that we should be pissed off. 25 years of failure, and its now got to the point where you laugh sometimes at how our side plays like the first 5 mins of this game where Charlie and White took turns to completely screw up simple goal chances before gifting WCE the first goal of the match.

Carlton need to earn back trust through performances over the coming weeks to stop the comedic laughing that comes with their output.

Good on them today; it is a start.

 

[Prem17]

The next month will tell us a bit more.
There were signs of good football today but it still didn't hide the same lack of foot skills, poor decision making and non commitment that was evident in the previous four weeks.

I can't remember all the stats, but most areas were an avalanche.
Double the inside 50's, lowest contested possessions this year (WCE), 36 scoring shots, and a shitload of fk ups in front of goal as well.

At our best with that dominance we would have scored 150+.
Harry and Kemp being injured won't help matters, but hopefully Harry only misses a week.

If we don't get the balance right with Kemp out long term then more attention gets turned onto Charlie and Harry.

If we only win one of the next 4 games then Voss will be right under the pump, if not gone, and so will others in the off field dept.
Doesn't matter whether you think the players are at fault or the coach is at fault, if we are 2 - 7 after round 9 then heads will roll.
It won't be the players heads because all the coaching staff know their careers are riding on wins too, so big name players won't get dumped for the risk of bringing in younger players.

Wins sell memberships.
Hope can drive a man insane.

 

[GoBlues!]

We lack system. How many times did the Eagles move the ball from defence to attack with ease?

We have a system, but I agree the system was lacking in the defensive side especially after we kicked a few behinds.

A few times we were just too slow to pick up players and left too many unmarked - so after a quick kick-in they were able to move the ball easily resulting in a couple of goals.

Once might be okay but it seemed to happenEd a few times today. It’s fixable, we just need to be more switched on and aware.

 

[Flaggers22]

Simpson is no longer coaching, but fair enough

Do you then think 16 other clubs don't train the basics and fundamentals, because those coaches didn't comment publicly

That's a strawman, the claim was that those teams place more emphasis on these aspects of the game than we do, not that we don't train fundamentals. Not all teams are going to ascribe equal weighting to each facet of the game at training, so it seems perfectly reasonable to undertake a content analysis to ascertain what each coach values.

Personally, I suspect that we are lagging behind most clubs in training and prioritising fundamentals. Although, I don't really have good evidence to support this - so it remains a hunch.

 

[Stamos]

Simpson is no longer coaching, but fair enough

Do you then think 16 other clubs don't train the basics and fundamentals, because those coaches didn't comment publicly

I think the amount that fundamentals are focused on would vary from club to club.

What I know is that we’re really bad at the fundamentals, especially for a team with our talent.
And that unlike some other coaches, I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s the most important thing. I hear “contest and pressure” from him.

 

[Opium]

I'm happy how I see the game

People whinge that we are too defensive, if you want to open up those attacking layers, you also open up the counter

We kept the Eagles to their 2nd lowest score, while scoring more than Dockers and Lions

Perhaps Voss sees it differently too. He wasn't overly impressed by the performance either in his Press conference

 

[Arr0w]

That's a strawman, the claim was that those teams place more emphasis on these aspects of the game than we do, not that we don't train fundamentals. Not all teams are going to ascribe equal weighting to each facet of the game at training, so it seems perfectly reasonable to undertake a content analysis to ascertain what each coach values.

Personally, I suspect that we are lagging behind most clubs in training and prioritising fundamentals. Although, I don't really have good evidence to support this - so it remains a hunch.

I think you need some context, see below

I think the amount that fundamentals are focused on would vary from club to club.

I would agree

What I know is that we’re really bad at the fundamentals, especially for a team with our talent.

I really hope this isn't based on win/loss, as there are many factors involved


One of the best development coaches in Williams was sacked prior to Tigers going on their run. Could he have still impacted their chaos ball rise? Sure.

Went to the Demons, they won a flag, but have declined the last 4 year, while he is still there. Do you really think they have stopped coaching these basics and fundamentals?

And that unlike some other coaches, I’ve never heard Voss say that it’s the most important thing

"Basics and fundamentals" is completely a genetic term, there are no details.

Just because a coach doesn't mention it, doesn't mean its not part of a training strategy

. I hear “contest and pressure” from him.

Finally getting somewhere, would you not consider this to be a fundamentals of our gameplan? In fact pressure is a fundamental in modern footy, and contested ball is still vital

Like Hardwicks chaos ball, which has been modified by Fly and Kingsley

Personally, anyone suggesting we do or don't do in terms of training, would be guessing unless within the innersanctum

 

[Arr0w]

Perhaps Voss sees it differently too. He wasn't overly impressed by the performance either in his Press conference

Why would he be happy, you always look to improve

 

[Coona Blues]

What an interesting few pages!

I remain a Voss knocker, but was heartened by the day’s output. For the record, I do not want Voss removed mid season. I am not confident an internal appointment would be better.

Ash Hansen is supposedly highly rated, and been in the mix for senior jobs. He has held a number of portfolios including ball movement and forward. Two of the areas we have been substandard in, so I do nit have faith he would improve the group.

Re today, I am heartened by some facets of our ball movement and structures. Particularly early in the day, we had an open forward line. Then when H went down, we were happy to use Durds out of the square, he wasn’t forced to provide cover defence up the ground for our mids. Interesting that Lord was deployed almost exclusively forward. Motlop remains a conundrum, poor early, yet worked into the game later higher up the ground.

The rider is the poor pressure from the oppo. Were we better structured, or was it the outcome from lesser resistance? Some good signs. Seeing Walshy “on his bike” was so sweet. Jeff looked at home, our defensive structure remains a WIP. Weiters and SOS form a good combo, Haynes was much more assured and Gov, after a shaky start, produced good Gov for the first time this year. Saad is in his twilight, still capable of some good footy, but gets found out on rebound. Still think we papered over some cracks. Getting game time in to youngsters who are good enough to be our future is a big positive, but was somewhat forced.

The next question. We have had a number of resets after the ball movement and confidence has gone to crap. We had another one today, at least partially. Unfortunately Voss reverts to type with contest and pressure, which he clearly did over the preseason. The next few weeks will be the indicator if he and his assistants have, in fact, learned.

I would like nothing better than Voss to broaden his focus and be a long term success with some upgraded assistants, but absolutely remain unconvinced. Hoping for a hard fought win in Good Friday off the back of some proactive coaching and selections.

 

[Stamos]

Fundamentals are the basics of football.

So skills: kicking, handballing, marking obviously
How you approach the ball
Tackling.
But also positioning around a contest.
Shepherding
Taking the first option.
Getting back off the mark quickly to give yourself more options (unless you’re wanting to kill the clock)
Blocking
Taking the body if the ball goes past you
A proper run-up for goal kicking
Not giving away a 50m penalty unless you’re making a player earn it.
When to corral and when to commit to a tackle

Etc etc

 

[Arr0w]

Fundamentals are the basics of football.

So skills: kicking, handballing, marking obviously
How you approach the ball
Tackling.
But also positioning around a contest.
Shepherding
Taking the first option.
Getting back off the mark quickly to give yourself more options (unless you’re wanting to kill the clock)
Blocking
Taking the body if the ball goes past you
A proper run-up for goal kicking
Not giving away a 50m penalty unless you’re making a player earn it.
When to corral and when to commit to a tackle

Etc etc

How do you know this hasn't been trained Stamos and please don't say Voss hasn't come out and stated as such publicly, when only 2 current coaches have commented

Every club I have been a part of, playing or coaching has incorporated or trained the above as part of any gameplan or tactics, at different degrees

What you teach under 10, 12 16, 18s through to seniors changes depending on the level, it becomes more slightly more tactical because everyone's knows how to kick mark etc by 18, just different levels of competency

 

[Stamos]

How do you know this hasn't been trained Stamos and please don't say Voss hasn't come out and stated as such publicly, when only 2 current coaches have commented

Every club I have been a part of, playing or coaching has incorporated or trained the above as part of any gameplan or tactics, at different degrees

What you teach under 10, 12 16, 18s through to seniors changes depending on the level, it becomes more slightly more tactical because everyone's knows how to kick mark etc by 18, just different levels of competency

We are particularly bad at these things, especially for a team that played in a prelim, and then was 2nd on the ladder after 18 games.

Ex coaches have commented on how bad we are at these things.

If we’re training them with the same focus as Collingwood and Hawthorn, why are we so bad?

 

[Arr0w]

We are particularly bad at these things, especially for a team that played in a prelim, and then was 2nd on the ladder after 18 games.

So we trained them before but not now?

Ex coaches have commented on how bad we are at these things.

How would simpson know if he isn't in our inner sanctum ?

If we are the only club that don't train these so called fundamentals you mentioned above, lets say giving away a 50, why do all sides give away, 50 metre penalties?

If we’re training them with the same focus as Collingwood and Hawthorn, why are we so bad?

Okay let's drill down to the Pies. Won a flag 2023, missed the 8 2024

What happened to the fundamentals, I'd like you to explain it

 

[JustaBattler]

We are particularly bad at these things, especially for a team that played in a prelim, and then was 2nd on the ladder after 18 games.

Ex coaches have commented on how bad we are at these things.

If we’re training them with the same focus as Collingwood and Hawthorn, why are we so bad?

Maybe there are few players at Carlton that are being played that wouldn't get a game at Collingwood or Hawthorn ?

 

[Stamos]

Maybe there are few players at Carlton that are being played that wouldn't get a game at Collingwood or Hawthorn ?

Mason Cox gets a game at Collingwood.
Didn’t know what a football was until he was 23 years old.